If anyone remembers the cars...

[DVC-Landbaron]

Demosthenes. I think I disagree with your basic premise.

I was one the one talked about when the ‘car thing’ was first introduced by fellow Car #3 rider Jjewell (who later became “Walt’s Frozen Head”). He said it when he came to my defense in some philosophical Disney “MAGIC” discussion where I said that the magic has diminished over the past 20 years. After 2 or three dozen (it was probably only 4 or 5, but it felt worse) dirided me for ANTI-DISNEY sentiments he wrote a really thoughtful piece. In the middle of it somewhere he said something to the effect of, “WOW! This guy states that he feels frustrated by the company’s lack of direction and the pixie dusted car pool shows up in force to beat him down!” (Remember I am paraphrasing, if anyone can find a link I’d like to re-read it). Anyway, that started it!! (And from that I got to be the driver of Car #3. Jjewell however has faded from Disneydom, making his escape in the first car #4 available. Too bad too, since he was usually right on the money with his posts!)

So let's recap in shorthand terms:

Car #1 was the “Pixie dusted” automobile.
Car #2 wasn’t quite sure about things
Car #3 stated emphatically that the PHILOSOPHICAL ideals of Walt were dead or dieing, and that there wasn’t much hope of them ever returning.

I think to make it clearer it should be stated in reverse:

Car #3 – Walt’s Ideals are dead and will NEVER return
Car #2 – Walt’s Ideals are hurting, but Ei$ner will bring them back again! Just wait and see!!
Car #1 – The Magic is as powerful as ever!! Let’s trade pins, buy a brick and bring home a snowglobe!!!

Does it make more sense that way?

So in my mind there should be no one in car three (or four if you like) that is in there because their favorite ride is gone or “frustration over changing classic attractions”. No! Those things are merely examples of the diminishing ideals. They are simply symptoms of a very sick philosophy.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Demosthenes - I see your point. Using 2001 as a starting point for measuring improvement is difficult though. Particularly after 9/11, hours were cut to the bone as travel was way down. Hours have improved since then, but where did they have to go but up? While things have also been added since then, the philosophy behind those additions is in keeping with what had started prior to 2001. Quick additions, along with some not so quick and halfway decent addition......but little interest or investment in developing the next great attraction, the new innovative E-Tickets destined to be the Pirates of a new generation to keep guests coming back for another half century. As you point out, even the special events weren't added as a way to bring back things that may have been lost previously so as to make the guest experience better, they were added as a way for WDW to squeeze a few more dollars from pockets. While the parks are clean and well maintained, I think quality and choice in a lot of areas has gone down a little. So to simply say things are better than they were from a low point doesn't paint a complete picture, and doesn't recognize the philosophy and driving force behind those changes, which is fundementally different from that which used to drive the company, IMHO.

 

[NMW]

I guess that we are in car #1. However we only started going yearly to Disney in 2001. I'm not counting our 1995 honeymoon at WDW. In the late 90's we were buying houses, and I was having babies. I did not follow what WDW was doing between our honeymoon in 1995 and our first family trip with the 5 of us in 2001.

I think WDW is even better now than it was in 2001. We are happy with the new attractions. We love the deluxe dining plan-it's perfect for the way our family dines. I'm glad PI is closing the dance clubs-just not a fan of them or that whole PI vibe. (I know some people love them and I'm not trying to upset anyone, I'm just replying to the OP).

We had probably our best trip ever in May 08. Stayed at our fav the BC, dined at some great places, had beautiful weather. Trip was perfect. The only thing we DIDN'T enjoy was PI. We spent a really fun Friday night on the MP side-listening to music, having drinks, shopping. We had a 9:30 ADR at Raglan Road. We LOVE that place. Got seated at 9:45 and had so much fun. After dinner we considered walking to the WS but really hated the crowds of people and the atmosphere of PI when we came out of the restaurant. Just doesn't feel like Disney to us-I can't really explain it. It was almost seedy. We ended up getting a cab back to the BC and skipping the WS. My daughter was tired anyway. I know when I write these kinds of things I get flamed by people who seem to think I just don't "get" PI and I'm so wrong about it. And, that's okay. These are just my honest opinions of the place from my families point of view.

I was in B&N today and just bought the Unofficial Guide 2009. I can't wait to plan our next trip. DH and I are already in deep discussions about restaurant choices, park days, what to do at night, etc. We could go A LOT of places with the amount of money we spend on a WDW vacation, but WDW is the place we want to be. I don't see that changing anytime in the near future.

Perhaps if we knew what WDW was really like 10-15 years ago, I would understand. I'm not even counting our 1995 honeymoon. A travel agent booked the whole thing and I can barely remember what we did except that we couldn't get dining reservations and were stuck with a lot of CS. When we went later with our kids we booked the dreammaker gold or silver plans and made ADR's before we left the house. Much better! We like the new deluxe dining plan even better because it doesn't include all those extras we don't use (boat rental, child care, etc). It's just the food and perfect for us. I have even written Disney to let them know how happy I am!

 

[Cricket2]

I'm still looking, but I ran out of time today. This might help a bit:

http://www.disboards.com/archive/index.php/t-58576.html

 

[AdventurerKat]

I was in car two for a long while. Then as the decline continued, I made my way to car three. Now I'm standing in front of an I-drive hotel waiting for car four to drive by and pick me up.

How far my once beloved Disney has fallen.

 

[cristen]

Boy Raidermatt, you have come a long way.

It would be fun to see where all those declaring Car #1 are riding today.

 

[jfinke]

I was actually happy in 2002. There was no one else at the parks!!

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Concerning Raidermatt!

It was about this time that I started teasing him that soon he would be riding shot for me!! A couple months later - HE WAS!!

 

[YoHo]

Baron, you better not really have left.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

I haven't, but I can't resist teasing Cris. And you for that matter!

 

[Demosthenes]

Demosthenes. I think I disagree with your basic premise.

I

Car #3 – Walt’s Ideals are dead and will NEVER return
Car #2 – Walt’s Ideals are hurting, but Ei$ner will bring them back again! Just wait and see!!
Car #1 – The Magic is as powerful as ever!! Let’s trade pins, buy a brick and bring home a snowglobe!!!

Does it make more sense that way?

Sure, that makes sense; but I think it too narrowly defines things. If I was forced to pick one based on that description, I'd have to be car #3 myself, though I certainly don't share the doom and gloom sentiment of most of my fellow passengers. I think Walt's ideals are dead or at least mortally wounded, but recognize some positive signs over the last several years (and DisneyKidds, I could have just as easily used 1998; I think I'm just stuck in election mode with comparisons since W. came into office so prevalent lately).

 

[Cricket2]

Another long talk about it, but not the one I'm looking for...

http://www.disboards.com/archive/index.php/t-350622.html

I think this was the "pinned" thread:

http://www.disboards.com/archive/index.php/t-229074.html

More stuff:

http://www.disboards.com/archive/index.php/t-315119.html

 

[Cricket2]

I have finished searching the archive by hand and unless it was bummped out of the depths prior to an arc (board version change), it is gone. There were about 10 or so "which car are you in now" update polls/threads but nothing that even linked me to the original, so I couldn't dig it out directly.

It didn't help that Pirates of the CARibbean and Pixar's CARS were being released during the arc threads either

Sorry I couldn't find it

 

[DisneyKidds]

...........and DisneyKidds, I could have just as easily used 1998; I think I'm just stuck in election mode with comparisons since W. came into office so prevalent lately).

Ah, but then I wouldn't have been inclined to agree with your sentiments!

 

[Demosthenes]

Ah, but then I wouldn't have been inclined to agree with your sentiments!

Though, hours are demonstrably longer today than they were in 1998, there are more attractions, and maintenance is markedly improved. I would argue that the late 90's was a pretty dismal time for WDW with half complete theme parks, shuttered attractions, short hours, limited fireworks & nighttime shows and poorly maintained parks, resorts and attractions. This is the time that started defining (or at least queuing up) the car pools. Even those in car #4 don't believe this started in this century.

 

[cristen]

I haven't, but I can't resist teasing Cris.

Gee thanks! I wasn't even the one involved!!

Demosthenes,

It's not that we don't recognize when good is done. We see when something good is put out there, the problem is we know it doesn't come from a change in the way they do business.

Let me use the return of the Slepping Beauty Walkthrough at DL for an example. For those that aren't aware, they shut the walkthrough down after 9-11 stating security reasons.

Now, they are updating the attraction and re-opening it. GREAT! I am very happy about this. BUT....it's not because it was the right thing to do. No! It's only because the 50th anniversary release of the DVD is coming out. They needed a tie in for the park! When talking to Tony about doing a tie in, he said, why don't we just re-open the walkthrough?

A walkthrough?

Hell, Tony Baxter himself said they didn't even know they had the walkthrough there in the park to reopen!!!! How insane is that?!

So it makes it harder for us to get as happy as other people do about the good things. Because it's not coming from a change in thought or philosophy. It's business as usual, we just happen to get lucky from time to time.

 

[Demosthenes]

Gee thanks! I wasn't even the one involved!!

Demosthenes,

It's not that we don't recognize when good is done. We see when something good is put out there, the problem is we know it doesn't come from a change in the way they do business.

Let me use the return of the Slepping Beauty Walkthrough at DL for an example. For those that aren't aware, they shut the walkthrough down after 9-11 stating security reasons.

Now, they are updating the attraction and re-opening it. GREAT! I am very happy about this. BUT....it's not because it was the right thing to do. No! It's only because the 50th anniversary release of the DVD is coming out. They needed a tie in for the park! When talking to Tony about doing a tie in, he said, why don't we just re-open the walkthrough?

A walkthrough?

Hell, Tony Baxter himself said they didn't even know they had the walkthrough there in the park to reopen!!!! How insane is that?!

So it makes it harder for us to get as happy as other people do about the good things. Because it's not coming from a change in thought or philosophy. It's business as usual, we just happen to get lucky from time to time.

If that is truly the rationale, then couldn't it be reasoned that WDW never had Walt's ideals? Roy didn't share his brothers quest for story and quality, and from the day WDW opened, it was based on different ideals than Walt would have implemented. Certainly, if Walt had lived, Florida never would have seen Pirates, would have seen E.P.C.O.T. as a city, and not a mere concept, etc. I agree that Walt's ideals died with him, and the company has taken a different direction since then; I also agree that I like the company better under Walt's direction (though to be fair, he died before I was born, so I view it through the rose-colored nostalgic glasses that have been handed down to me). But since 1969, and really even before then, the company has been about making money; the theme park division does it through parks, resorts, dining, shopping and attractions. To paraphrase Peter Pan:

All we need is faith and trust; oh...and something I forgot - [Money].

One day, I would love to see a story teller at the helm of the Disney company again, but I doubt it will ever happen. I will say that just because a good thing happens because a suit somewhere decided it would be a good financial investment and not becuase a storyteller wanted to introduce a new story or medium, doesn't mean that the new story or medium is flawed. It can and should be enjoyed on its own merits. I think there has been a lot to cheer for in recent years. Perhaps funding good changes will lead to a desire to make good changes on their own merit. Some of that takes place in some of the minor details you see around the parks, sometimes it happens with major attractions or feature films; but wherever it happens, I give the company kudos. To do otherwise discourages these positive moves, IMHO.

 

[kstinw19]

I would have to say that I am still in car #2. As a longtime Disney visitor and ex-cast member, I do miss the pre-2001 Disney. I felt that it was more relaxed, there was more of a family feel, and no, I didn't feel as if Disney was trying to get every dollar out of us.

I do feel as though things have declined a bit. I have fond memories of spending many many nights at PI in the early 90's dancing in Mannequins, going to AC and hopping up to the stage to watch the Midnight show. I miss River Country and some of the old shows too.

BUT...my kids are not from my era. My dd7 was born in 2000 and has no idea what Disney was like before her. She loves Disney for what it is today...it is the only topic of conversation at dinner each night, she memorizes the park maps, she watches Stacy on youtube a least once a week. To her and my boys, it's magic, just like it was for me back in the day. And I get to see it again, in a new way, through their eyes just as my parents got to watch us in the day.

I am so bitterly disappointed by the commercialization of Disney and am very sorry that PI is going to turn into another "strip mall" so to speak. I thought that Iger would be better than Eisner for the world because I thought he would be less money hungry. I guess I was wrong. But I won't give up on the World because the magic is still there...maybe not as much for me, but for my kids, who experience so much joy just being there.

 

[maleficent94]

Although I have never posted before, I have been "reading" for quite a while. I felt as though I needed to respond to this thread. I consider myself a strong Car #2. Our last visit was 3 wks to WDW. I have been visiting the world since my first trip when I was 10. At last count I have visited 33 times. I remember the "feel" WDW had when I was 10 and I know how it "feels" now at 41. There is still "magic". I see it through my DS & DD's eyes, I feel it in my heart when I walk down Main Street and I still get butterflies when I'm there. But, I have to explain why I am a #2 instead of #1. WDW was much smaller when I first visited with my family. I never remember waiting 2 hours for Space Mountain and WDW was so clean it "sparkled". On our last trip (the first 3 weeks of August) the least amount of wait time for Space Mountain was on the 2nd day of Tropical Storm Fay clocked at 60 minutes. I think it's wonderful that Disney is growing and expanding. With that said, however, I think Disney is starting to lose what made them so special. The little important things are starting to slip. I don't want to wait 2 hours for a ride. We never rode Soarin' (in 3 weeks) because the line was never shorter than 2 hours and of course by 1:00 pm the FPs were gone. As for cleaniless, it is still leaps and bounds above any other "park" I have visited. Although this year I felt it slipped. 50% of the bathrooms we used were dirty (I had to open quite a few stall doors before I found a "clean" one {a first for me at WDW}). I can't tell you how many cockroaches (at least 4 in. long if not longer) (the kids couldn't even sit to watch the parades) we encountered (I stopped counting at 35. And then last but not least, the 2 foot rat (not Mickey) at The Brown Derby. I realize WDW is outside, don't get me wrong, I don't expect it to be completely pest free, but there didn't seem to be any evidence of pest control while we were there. I know WDW went through a rough patch during the late 90's and early 2000's (I was definately a 3.9 at that point) where everything was aweful (actually heard CMs complaining {another first}, Donald slapping a child's hand away, bus transportation to anywhere 1 hour, etc.) and they have improved greatly. I just hope they realize where they are going and remember it all begain with a man who wanted to build a place he could enjoy and experience with his daughters.

 

[maleficent94]

Although I have never posted before, I have been "reading" for quite a while. I felt as though I needed to respond to this thread. I consider myself a strong Car #2. Our last visit was 3 wks to WDW. I have been visiting the world since my first trip when I was 10. At last count I have visited 33 times. I remember the "feel" WDW had when I was 10 and I know how it "feels" now at 41. There is still "magic". I see it through my DS & DD's eyes, I feel it in my heart when I walk down Main Street and I still get butterflies when I'm there. But, I have to explain why I am a #2 instead of #1. WDW was much smaller when I first visited with my family. I never remember waiting 2 hours for Space Mountain and WDW was so clean it "sparkled". On our last trip (the first 3 weeks of August) the least amount of wait time for Space Mountain was on the 2nd day of Tropical Storm Fay clocked at 60 minutes. I think it's wonderful that Disney is growing and expanding. With that said, however, I think Disney is starting to lose what made them so special. The little important things are starting to slip. I don't want to wait 2 hours for a ride. We never rode Soarin' (in 3 weeks) because the line was never shorter than 2 hours and of course by 1:00 pm the FPs were gone. As for cleaniless, it is still leaps and bounds above any other "park" I have visited. Although this year I felt it slipped. 50% of the bathrooms we used were dirty (I had to open quite a few stall doors before I found a "clean" one {a first for me at WDW}). I can't tell you how many cockroaches (at least 4 in. long if not longer) (the kids couldn't even sit to watch the parades) we encountered (I stopped counting at 35). And then last but not least, the 2 foot rat (not Mickey) at The Brown Derby. I realize WDW is outside, don't get me wrong, I don't expect it to be completely pest free, but there didn't seem to be any evidence of pest control while we were there. I know WDW went through a rough patch during the late 90's and early 2000's (I was definately a 3.9 at that point) where everything was aweful (actually heard CMs complaining {another first}, Donald slapping a child's hand away, bus transportation to anywhere 1 hour, etc.) and they have improved greatly. I just hope they realize where they are going and remember it all begain with a man who wanted to build a place he could enjoy and experience with his daughters.