I wish i could see the Disney "transportation books"...

[DSLRuser]

Disney buses cost $100k each at least. there is a fleet of 300 buses. plus the cost of drivers, mechanics, parts, fuel.

How big is the divide between the current buss system, and making a mono rail loop run from Epcot station, to the studios, then from the studios to AK and back. making a total of 4 distinct loops.

Eliminating the need for buses between parks could save long term on the bus costs. It's a pipe dream, but i crunch numbers for a living. i would love to look into all the possibilities.

If the expense would have been made back in the 80's for the studios, and the 90's for AK, would it have paid off by now?

 

[Wadecool]

You pose an interesting question. A term that is used frequently in logistics is redundancy. I am sure that even if an expanded monorail system were ever put into place, they would still keep a large fleet of buses at the ready. Could you imagine if a major monorail malfunction shut down the parks? No way would Disney let that happen. I do think that the monorail is much more efficient.

 

[brerrabbit]

While costs are certainly a huge part of any decision to build or not build I think that the bigger question is logistics. Linking the parks by monorail would be nice but the reality is logistically speaking the majority of the bus capacity is used to transport people from their individual resorts to the parks, waterparks, and downtown Disney. Buses do that with more flexibility and ease than the monorail ever could. Have a backup of people going home from Epcot one night, just throw more buses at the problem. A monorail could not do that.

 

[Jestocost]

At an estimated $100 million (plus or minus) per mile in capital cost, the cost of expanding the monorail is prohibitive and it would take a very long time to recoup the investment. Given that the monorails have much less flexibility than buses, Disney would have to have redundancies to account for peak periods, breakdowns, etc. Plus, the monorails are expensive to run after they are built.

Since it appears that the current monorail system is (over)due for a substantial refurbishment, I'm wondering when (or if?) Disney gets around to funding that project. I can't imagine WDW without the monorail, but who knows?

 

[mjp12831]

The key issue with WDW transportation is getting people from the resorts to the park, not from park to park. Essentially the monorail originally was that method of transportation (resort to park) when all that existed were the Poly and Contemporary. I think when they expanded to having resorts away from the parks, it more made the monorail a novelty than a relied upon method of transportation. Even if the monorail connected all of the parks, the bus system would still be needed for resort to park transport.

I'm not sure what was behind the idea of adding a monorail run from TTC to E - I'd be interested in hearing that back story because it doesn't seem to make sense. I'm sure constuction costs to build the rail are real high and would be hard to get any ROI.

For us park hoppers, a monorail loop connecting all parks sure would be nice, but I don't think it makes any sense.

 

[lroger01]

I think a more efficient and cost-effective option would be to build resort-bus only lanes on all the major road ways. If it could be done so that the busses wouldn't have to stop at any lights, or go through the parking lot toll plaza's getting around by bus would be very fast.

I know for a time Disney tried using tractor-trailer style busses for hauling large quantites of people, but that didn't go over too well. I wonder if double-decker busses would work. Maybe have all the seats on the top level, and configure the bottom level for wheel chairs and rails/handholds for standees. Having a section set up just for standing (with a cushy rubber floor) would probably make standing easier. Double deckers could hold a lot of people and still fit in the current bus stops, plus, they'd add to the Disney fun.

 

[kmk1180]

Well first new monorail would not eliminate buses. A system to go from every resort to every park would be far to complex.

But I would like to see one central monorail station that goes to all the parks.
Move the TTC to across the street from intersection of World drive and EPCOT Center Dr.
Really would only need to redo a bit from there to MK and a bit from there to EPCOT. So only need to build to and from HS and AK.
Still could charge for parking like any at park does for non resort guests.
but would give much quicker flexibility to park hop. Hopefully increasing park hoppers sold to help recoop the cost.

Jesto,
That $100 million per mile sounds extremely high. What's your source of info?

 

[CPDis84]

Jesto,
That $100 million per mile sounds extremely high. What's your source of info?

I think that number sounds high as well, but I believe while watching a behind the scenes of Disney show they said that back in the 1970s it cost
$1 million per mile. It has been a while since I've seen that show so that number might not be accurate

 

[Jestocost]

Jesto,
That $100 million per mile sounds extremely high. What's your source of info?

Numerous sources.

More conservative estimates peg the range of costs for existing monorail systems (Las Vegas, Seattle, etc.) in the $60 million to $80 million per mile range. Other estimates put the average at $138 million per mile.

Depending on where you read, the Las Vegas monorail--which operates on the same basic Bombardier system as the WDW monorails--cost anywhere from $88 million to $167 million per mile. The low figure there comes from the Monorail Society, which has a vested interest in promoting monorails, and the high comes from an organization promoting light rail over monorails. Independent analysis generally pegs construction costs at right around $100 million per mile.

 

[sdzman]

The capacity and frequency of the busses far outweighs that of the monorails. Not to mention all those strollers, wheelchairs and ECVs would make loading and unloading miserable for the average rider. The monorail is a neat novelty but in it's current form isnt practical as the main transportation mode in WDW.

 

[disnut8]

I wonder if double-decker busses would work. Maybe have all the seats on the top level, and configure the bottom level for wheel chairs and rails/handholds for standees. Having a section set up just for standing (with a cushy rubber floor) would probably make standing easier. Double deckers could hold a lot of people and still fit in the current bus stops, plus, they'd add to the Disney fun.

I see a couple of problems to this. First, how to communicate to everyone that you would have to climb stairs if you were not physically incapacitated. I can hear people now saying "I'm not in a wheelchair but I have *fill in the blank* so I can't climb stairs". Or, parents with tired children (or children with tired parents) at the end of a long day just refusing to climb the stairs.

Second, a lot of guests to Disney World are us Americans and we, well, are a bit spoiled. We don't have double-decker buses and we don't quite know what to do with them. While I think they work wonderfully in other countries, we just kind of don't accept change all that well. We don't like dollar coins, for example while lots of other countries have those and use them well.

Third, and I'm not sure about this but don't the buses to Magic Kingdom go under Bay Lake/Seven Seas Lagoon? Would a double decker bus fit under there?

Fourth, it would take much more time to load a double decker bus. People are already antsy to get to or from a park. Double the amount of loading time and you will get complaints.

Now, I could see double deckers being used for Magical Express. That, I think, would be easy. However, that's operated by Mears, not Disney.

 

[Robo]

$100 Million per mile is an often-quoted figure.

But, inside private property the costs would surely be much less.

As a comparison, consider that they construct multi-lane roadways, including bridges, on WDW property.

A monorail beam (a pair of them, actually) running along a modern roadway would surely cost the same or less than the cost of building the roadway.
And, we see that Disney does invest in those roadways, even though they are expensive to build.

Much of the monorail beam system can be pre-fabricated and trucked onto position to be mounted.
However, I'm just stating the obvious comparison about concrete and steel construction, cost-wise.
Sadly, I think that building new monorail loops between parks would be inefficient transportation, at best.

 

[kmk1180]

Numerous sources.

More conservative estimates peg the range of costs for existing monorail systems (Las Vegas, Seattle, etc.) in the $60 million to $80 million per mile range. Other estimates put the average at $138 million per mile.

Depending on where you read, the Las Vegas monorail--which operates on the same basic Bombardier system as the WDW monorails--cost anywhere from $88 million to $167 million per mile. The low figure there comes from the Monorail Society, which has a vested interest in promoting monorails, and the high comes from an organization promoting light rail over monorails. Independent analysis generally pegs construction costs at right around $100 million per mile.

That's also starting a system from scratch at both Seattle and Las Vegas.
Disney wouldn't be doing that. They would be expanding. Which while still expensive generally cheaper than building from scratch.

Robo,
Why do do you think it would be inefficent system?
Seems to me it would ease bus traffic taking away the people who are park hopping from the buses. Thus reduce road traffic. Speed between would be seem to be faster than buses.
Just wondering.

 

[kmk1180]

Numerous sources.

More conservative estimates peg the range of costs for existing monorail systems (Las Vegas, Seattle, etc.) in the $60 million to $80 million per mile range. Other estimates put the average at $138 million per mile.

Depending on where you read, the Las Vegas monorail--which operates on the same basic Bombardier system as the WDW monorails--cost anywhere from $88 million to $167 million per mile. The low figure there comes from the Monorail Society, which has a vested interest in promoting monorails, and the high comes from an organization promoting light rail over monorails. Independent analysis generally pegs construction costs at right around $100 million per mile.

That's also starting a system from scratch at both Seattle and Las Vegas.
Disney wouldn't be doing that. They would be expanding. Which while still expensive generally cheaper than building from scratch.

Robo,
Why do do you think it would be inefficent system?
Seems to me it would ease bus traffic taking away the people who are park hopping from the buses. Thus reduce road traffic. Speed between would be seem to be faster than buses.
Just wondering.

All that said, while I wish it would happen, I doubt it will

 

[Jestocost]

That's also starting a system from scratch at both Seattle and Las Vegas.
Disney wouldn't be doing that. They would be expanding. Which while still expensive generally cheaper than building from scratch.

The Las Vegas monorail "expansion" cost more per mile than the original monorail. A subsquent planned expansion that eventually was scrapped was projected to run even more per mile.

Heck, old Bombardier marketing materials that I've seen tout costs of $84 million per mile and I have to imagine those are very conservative.

Still, even if they cut those costs in half (which probably would be difficult), you're talking $50 million + per mile. That's a big investment.

 

[mountdew1]

A majority of the travel at WDW to me always seems to be from the resorts to the parks, not so much from park to park. So putting in a park to park monorail loop doesn't serve much purpose. And most people seem to agree that there is no real good system that can be setup to serve the resorts and parks scattered all over property than a bus type system. There are too many possible destinations that would need to be served and short of setting up a massive TTC type location for all hotels/parks to switch lines, it really can't be done with current transportation methods.

 

[papertraveller]

There is also an assumption here that Disney owns the buses. I don't think that's necessarily the case. I suspect it's a lease arrangement, thus reducing the capital cost and pushing that onto other businesses such as Mears.

 

[Robo]

Robo,
Why do do you think it would be inefficent system?

Because of this-

A majority of the travel at WDW to me always seems to be from the resorts to the parks, not so much from park to park. So putting in a park to park monorail loop doesn't serve much purpose.

 

[Technosavant]

The monorail is neat, it's cool, it's part of the experience, but if Disney really wanted to ditch the buses, I would see them sooner establishing a light rail system. Cheaper to build, cheaper to operate, easier to deal with for everybody.

But the fact is that operating buses is not that much more expensive than operating other forms of transport- the roads need to be maintained anyway, so there's no special cost for that kind of thing (unlike monorail or light rail track). The buses are more flexible, as it's much easier to bring more out when capacity needs to be increased. It's much easier to maintain a fleet of buses, as diesel mechanics are more plentiful than train techs, and you don't necessarily need to have your own maintenance depot.

Buses may be expensive to lease and run, but they're still cheaper than dedicated train lines of any kind.

 

[Rudi610]

Does the cost per mile include the trainset(s) and the electronics to run it? If so, I could see the cost being that high. Overwise, $100 million per mile for steel and concrete seems a bit expensive.

On another note, creating separate loops for each park would be inefficient, unless you had a central place for changing trains. The TTC would be too far away (not really central on WDW property) and having to change 2 or 3 times would take longer than a bus. However, depending on the cost, it seems expanding the current Epcot loop to loop around to the Beach/Yacht club and Boardwalk hotels could seem feasible (and possibly to DHS?).

Unfortunately, the current monorail system is probably all we are going to see at WDW.