I shouldnt be suprised at this point...

MrVisible said:
But hey, if you want real-time access to heaven, it's on their official website! Salvation is just a click away!

http://www.changinglives.org/?m=util&a=show_link&page=gotoheaven

I feel sorry for the people who follow guys like that or attend those churches. It's like one of those joke religion sites but sadly it's way too real.

And to think I've seen Joe post about others following made up religions. We really need a kettle/pot/black smilie.
 
JennyMominRI said:
Gotcha...Sometimes I'm a lttle slow.
The Jewish Messiah will also do lots of amazing things while being just a man also

What kind of amazing things will the Jewish Messiah do? I ask out of respect and would like to know. Of course, you know that I believe the Jesus was the Jewsih Messiah and that He did indeed do amazing things but I know you are converting and I know they still await the Messiah but I don't know what they expect him to do when he comes. One of the things Jesus will do when He returns is to bring true peace to the world.
TIA
 
cardaway said:
I feel sorry for the people who follow guys like that or attend those churches. It's like one of those joke religion sites but sadly it's way too real.

And to think I've seen Joe post about others following made up religions. We really need a kettle/pot/black smilie.

Despite your personal insults, I'm very proud of our Christian Bible church. Nothing made up at all. Everything per the Bible. And we don't follow a "guy", we follow God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. (All churches have a pastor.)

Salvation is a gift! Per the Bible, God's Word, you only need to accept in your heart that Jesus died for your sins and confess with your mouth that He is Lord and Savior. :sunny:
 
JoeEpcotRocks said:
Despite your personal insults, I'm very proud of our Christian Bible church. Nothing made up at all. Everything per the Bible. And we don't follow a "guy", we follow God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. (All churches have a pastor.)

Salvation is a gift! Per the Bible, God's Word, you only need to accept in your heart that Jesus died for your sins and confess with your mouth that He is Lord and Savior. :sunny:

If that's all you need, then why all this stress over following all the other words in the Bible? Can't someone accept that Jesus died for their sins and be homosexual then? If that's all you need, then why do you even need a church?
 

JoeEpcotRocks said:
Despite your personal insults, I'm very proud of our Christian Bible church.

Personal insults? Not in that last post. Just comments about the LCIC cult.

For those that missed it...

MrVisible said:
It's a "Word of Faith" church.

Some beliefs:
*Predominantly focused on healing
*God operates by spiritual law and is obliged to do the faith filled command or desires by believers.
*Man is a little god. Man was created on terms with equality with God. Man can stand in God's presence without conscious of inferiority.
*Christ - it is compromised position; you are as much the incarnation as Jesus
*It is the Gospel of Health. Isaiah 53:5 is used as a blanket coverage for the physical healing of every Christian who has enough faith. If you are sick it is because there is sin in your life.
*The Gospel of Wealth - God's wills the financial prosperity of every believer. If a believer lives in poverty, he is outside the will of God.

It's a secretive but very prosperous organization, but with some research you can turn up some real howlers. But hey, with an emphasis on worldly wealth at least they're all getting rich, huh? Or at least the pastor is.

Seriously, this is fun stuff. A couple of links...

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/char/more/w-f.htm

http://www.watchman.org/profile/wordpro.htm

http://www.gospeloutreach.net/whatwordfaith.html

http://www.intotruth.org/wof/tract3.html

http://www.intotruth.org/wof/sayings.html

And since Joe said Dickow uses TBN, here's a greet article on what TBN is all about.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2004/138/21.0.html
 
cardaway said:
Personal insults? Not in that last post. Just comments about the LCIC cult.

For those that missed it...



And since Joe said Dickow uses TBN, here's a greet article on what TBN is all about.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2004/138/21.0.html

Not a cult at all -- a Bible-based Christian church. We do NOT believe sickness or poverty means one is in sin or outside the will of God.

Yes, our pastor also preaches on TBN. I can only vouch for his preaching, not the others.
 
LuluLovesDisney said:
If that's all you need, then why all this stress over following all the other words in the Bible? Can't someone accept that Jesus died for their sins and be homosexual then? If that's all you need, then why do you even need a church?

Yes. :sunny:

Following the Words in the Bible is for our benefit.

The church is for Biblical fellowship, encouragement, instruction, childrens' ministries, praise and worship, outreach to the poor, etc.
 
I heard at church today that the new PB has given several radio interviews and some are available online. I don't have the links, but thought the Episcopalians might be interested in what she has to say. Someone said they thought one was on NPR if that helps find it.

I'm about finished with this thread. It's wandered far from the original subject. I know I'm not going to change any minds around here. That's okay. It's your life. I think it's sad that some people need to throw stones at others, but that's been going on for centuries. Doesn't make it right, but I guess that's the way it is.

I'll live my life the way I see fit, though. And my God says that if I love others and love Him, that I'm doing what I need to do. Period. I don't think telling someone who they can love is part of all of that. That's just the way I personally see it. So, I'll continue to try to love everyone. Actually, it's harder for me to love people who are hateful than people who have a different sexual orientation, but that's just me.

God bless you all. See you around. :wave2:
 
JoeEpcotRocks said:
Following the Words in the Bible is for our benefit.

Do you follow all of the words in the Bible? Even the dietary restrictions and the admonition to keep the seventh day as a day of rest?
 
People, please.

Joe has found the church that suits him, and we would be impolite to try and talk him out of it. After all, if it makes him happy, that's all that counts.

I for one can't think of a better place for him to be.

And as a coda to this whole messy thread, I'd like to toss in this little saying, which I'd love to attribute to someone, but I can't even be sure I'm not paraphrasing.

You can't use reason to argue someone out of a position they arrived at through faith.
 
cardaway said:
I feel sorry for the people who follow guys like that or attend those churches. It's like one of those joke religion sites but sadly it's way too real.

And to think I've seen Joe post about others following made up religions. We really need a kettle/pot/black smilie.

Checked out the site...looks more like a cult.
 
NewJersey said:
Checked out the site...looks more like a cult.

Not a cult, but one of thousands and thousands of Bible-based Christian churches throughout the USA. :goodvibes :sunny: Praise God. :thumbsup2
 
Alas, I've lost the source of this quote.

Our situation is this: most of the people in this world believe that the Creator of the universe has written a book. We have the misfortune of having many such books on hand, each making an exclusive claim as to its infallibility. People tend to organize themselves into factions according to which of these incompatible claims they accept - rather than on the basis of language, skin color, location of birth, or any other criterion of tribalism. Each of these texts urges its reader to adopt a variety of beliefs and practices, some of which are benign, many of which are not. All are in perverse agreement on one point of fundamental importance, however: "respect" for other faiths, or for the views of unbelievers, is not an attitude that God endorses. While all faiths have been touched, here and there, by the spirit of ecumenicalism, the central tenet of every religious tradition is that all others are mere repositories of error or, at best, dangerously incomplete. Intolerance is thus intrinsic to every creed. Once a person believes - really believes - that certain ideas can lead to eternal happiness, or to its antithesis, he cannot tolerate the possibility that the people he loves might be led astray by the blandishments of unbelievers. Certainty about the next life is simply incompatible with tolerance in this one.

The idea that any one of our religions represents the infallible word of the One True God requires an encyclopedic ignorance of history, mythology, and art even to be entertained - as the beliefs, rituals, and iconography of each of our religions attest to centuries of cross-pollination among them. Whatever their imagined source, the doctrines of modern religions are no more tenable than those which, for lack of adherents, were cast upon the scrap heap of mythology millennia ago; for there is no more evidence to justify a belief in the literal existence of Yahweh and Satan that there was to keep Zeus perched upon his mountain throne or Poseidon churning the seas.

If our polls are to be trusted, nearly 230 million Americans believe that a book showing neither unity of style nor internal consistency was authored by an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent deity... How is it that, in this one area of our lives, we have convinced ourselves that our beliefs about the world can float entirely free of reason and evidence?

Tell a devout Christian that his wife is cheating on him, or that frozen yogurt can make a man invisible, and he is likely to require as much evidence as anyone else, and to be persuaded only to the extent that you give it. Tell him that the book he keeps by his bed was written by an invisible deity who will punish him with fire for eternity if he fails to accept its every incredible claim about the universe, and he seems to require no evidence whatsoever.

The point is that most of what we currently hold sacred is not sacred for any reason other than that it was thought sacred yesterday. Surely, if we could create the world anew, the practice of organizing our lives around untestable propositions found in ancient literature - to say nothing of killing and dying for them - would be impossible to justify.

Religious faith represents so uncompromising a misuse of the power of our minds that it forms a kind of perverse, cultural singularity - a vanishing point beyond which rational discourse proves impossible. When foisted upon each generation anew, it renders us incapable of realizing just how much of our world had been unnecessarily ceded to a dark and barbarous past.

Our world is fast succumbing to the activities of men and women who would stake the future of our species on beliefs that should not survive an elementary school education. That so many of us are still dying on account of ancient myths is as bewildering as it is horrible, and our own attachment to these myths, whether moderate or extreme, has kept us silent in the face of developments that could ultimately destroy us.

Imagine that we could revive a well-educated Christian of the fourteenth century. The man would prove to be a total ignoramus, except on matters of faith. His beliefs about geography, astronomy, and medicine would embarrass even a child, but he would know more or less everything there is to know about God. Though he would be considered a fool to think that the earth is the center of the cosmos, or that trepanning (the practice of boring holes in the human skull to cure epilepsy and mental illness) constitutes a wise medical intervention, his religious ideas would still be beyond reproach. There are two explanations for this: either we perfected our religious understanding of the world a millennium ago - while our knowledge on all other fronts was still hopelessly inchoate - or religion, being the mere maintenance of dogma, is one area of discourse that does not admit of progress.

Imagine a world in which generations of human beings come to believe that certain films were made by God or that specific software was coded by him. Imagine a future in which millions of our descendants murder each other over rival interpretations of Star Wars or Windows 98. Could anything - anything - be more ridiculous? And yet, this would be no more ridiculous than the world we are living in.

As a consequence of our silence on these matters, we live in a country in which a person cannot get elected president if he openly doubts the existence of heaven and hell. This is truly remarkable, given that there is no other body of "knowledge" that we require our political leaders to master. Even a hairstylist must pass a licensing exam before plying his trade in the United States, and yet those given the power to make war and national policy - those whose decisions will inevitably affect human life for generations - are not expected to know anything in particular before setting to work. They do not have to be political scientists, economists, or even lawyers; they need not have studied international relations, military history, resource management, civil engineering, or any other field of knowledge that might be brought to bear in the governance of a modern superpower; they need only be expert fund-raisers, comport themselves well on television, and be indulgent of certain myths. In our next presidential election, an actor who reads his Bible would almost certainly defeat a rocket scientist who does not. Could there be any clearer indication that we are allowing unreason and otherworldliness to govern our affairs?

It is time we admitted, from kings and presidents on down, that there is no evidence that any of our books was authored by the Creator of the universe. The Bible, it seems certain, was the work of sand-strewn men and women who thought the earth was flat and for whom a wheelbarrow would have been a breathtaking example of emerging technology. To rely on such a document as the basis for our worldview - however heroic the efforts of redactors - is to repudiate two thousand years of civilizing insights that the human mind has only just begun to inscribe upon itself through secular politics and scientific culture. We will see that the greatest problem confronting civilization is not merely religious extremism: rather, it is the larger set of cultural and intellectual accommodations we have made to faith itself. Religious moderates are, in large part, responsible for the religious conflict in our world, because their beliefs provide the context in which scriptural literalism and religious violence can never be adequately exposed.

n any other sphere of life, a belief is a check that everyone insists upon cashing this side of the grave; the engineer says the bridge will hold; the doctor says the infection is resistant to penicillin - these people have defensible reasons for their claims about the way the world is. The mullah, the priest, and the rabbi do not. Nothing could change about this world, or about the world of their experience, that would demonstrate the feasibility of many of their core beliefs. This proves that these beliefs are not born of any examination of the world, or of the world of their experience. It appears that even the Holocaust did not lead most Jews to doubt the existence of an omnipotent and benevolent God. If having half of your people systematically delivered to the furnace does not count as evidence against the notion that an all-powerful God is looking out for your interests, it seems reasonable to assume that nothing could. How does the mullah know that the Koran is the verbatim word of God? The only answer to be given in any language that does not make a mockery of the word "know" is - he doesn't.

To be ruled by ideas for which you have no evidence (and which therefore cannot be justified in conversation with other human beings) is generally a sign that something is seriously wrong with your mind. Clearly, there is sanity in numbers. And yet, it is merely an accident of history that it is considered normal in our society to believe that the Creator of the universe can hear your thoughts, while it is demonstrative of mental illness to believe that he is communicating with you by having the rain tap in Morse code on your bedroom window. And so, while religious people are not generally mad, their core beliefs absolutely are.

Jesus Christ - who, as it turns out, was born of a virgin, cheated death, and rose bodily into the heavens - can now be eaten in the form of a cracker. A few Latin word spoken over your favorite Burgundy, and you can drink his blood as well. Is there any doubt that the lone subscriber to these beliefs would be considered mad?

A rational approach to ethics becomes possible once we realize that questions of right and wrong are really questions about the happiness and suffering of sentient creatures. If we are in a position to affect the happiness or suffering of others, we have ethical responsibilities towards them - and many of these responsibilities are so grave as to become matters of civil and criminal law. Taking happiness and suffering as our starting point, we can see that much of what people worry about under the guise of morality has nothing to do with the subject. It is time we realized that crimes without victims are like debts without creditors. They do not even exist. Any person who lies awake at night worrying about the private pleasures of other consenting adults has more than just too much time on his hands; he has some unjustifiable beliefs about the nature of right and wrong.

It is time we recognized that all reasonable men and women have a common enemy. It is an enemy so near to us, and so deceptive, that we keep its counsel even as it threatens to destroy the very possibility of human happiness. Our enemy is nothing other than faith itself.
 


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