I got to be the Parent from Heck today at school...

[Magpie]

I guess I don’t understand what the issue is here Your daughter was offended that the opposing side of a debate didn’t share her views?

The problem wasn't that the opposing side of the debate didn't share her views. The problem was the rhetoric used.

Here's what was said (independently confirmed by my daughter's teacher):

"It's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve." "Allowing gay people to marry means that they'll adopt kids who will go and spread gayness in our schools." "Gay people don't love each other as much as straight people do." "Gay marriages aren't real." "Being Gay Married is like some guy marrying his dog. Should we let people marry their dogs?" "If a gay guy wants to get married then he can just choose to be straight!"

The opposing side hadn't done any research (the kid didn't even know Gay Marriage has been legal in Canada for years, and that there ARE adopted kids with gay parents in our schools right now!), he was just throwing out whatever came to mind.

And if he doesn’t

He doesn't have to agree with her. He just has to understand the rules of civil debate - and this was not civil.

Thank goodness you were able to step in I couldn’t imagine wanting to slap someone who disagreed with your point of view in a debate

My son is 12. And he didn't care about the debate - he was just offering to slap whomever offended her. I did make it clear to him that violence is unacceptable, but at the same time I think the impulse was a sweet one. He's always first to jump to his sister's defense, no matter what.

FYI—I am FOR gay marriage. I believe you should be married to the person that you love. I just could not imagine writing a teacher a letter saying how she should have resonded to the opposing view

I wrote a letter explaining our concerns over the fact that she did not respond *at all* when this kind of ugly rhetoric was used in the classroom. Her lack of action could have left the children believing that it's okay to say these things to each other. Just imagine if there was a child in that class wondering if he's gay!

This isn't about being pro or anti gay marriage - it's about the language and about the ignorance. I mean, just imagine if this had been a debate on whether Blacks should be allowed to marry Whites. "Black people can't feel the same kind of love White people feel,"??? Would that have been allowed to pass without comment in a classroom debate?

At least partially as a result of our letter the subject was opened up to a classroom discussion. Which was great!

I had a very good discussion with the teacher over the phone yesterday afternoon, and my daughter feels like everything's been resolved satisfactorily. No, the boy in question hasn't changed his views, but he did acknowledge that he wouldn't like being told his love wasn't real.

 

[Carly_Roach]

In a debate of any topic, you're likely to hear viewpoints or opinions that at best you don't agree with and, at worst, offend you. That's the whole point of the debate: to hear all sides and see how other people view things.

If you're going to shut down someone because their point of view is offensive to you rather than calmly stating that you disagree with it because (and give rational reasons), then you're not really curtailing that point of view. You're just driving it underground so you don't have to hear it and adding a whole lot of anger issues to the person holding that point of view.

 

[Magpie]

In a debate of any topic, you're likely to hear viewpoints or opinions that at best you don't agree with and, at worst, offend you. That's the whole point of the debate: to hear all sides and see how other people view things.

If you're going to shut down someone because their point of view is offensive to you rather than calmly stating that you disagree with it because (and give rational reasons), then you're not really curtailing that point of view. You're just driving it underground so you don't have to hear it and adding a whole lot of anger issues to the person holding that point of view.

Unfortunately, the opportunity to disagree was not given on that day, due to this being a formal debate. It was all on the shoulders of two little girls whose team response was, "Um, well, everyone should be allowed to do what they like, 'cause that's freedom."

This was very frustrating to other children (like my daughter and some of her friends) who would have liked to have challenged specific points in the anti-gay marriage debate.

At least in part because of my letter, the subject WAS opened up to class discussion yesterday and everyone in the class got to calmly give their rational reasons for believing what they do. I don't want to shut anyone down. I just don't want my daughter to have to sit there and listen to hate speech without any opportunity to respond.

That's why I felt (and the teacher agreed in retrospect) that this was not an appropriate topic for a Grade 8 Debate. We DO think it's an appropriate topic for Grade 8 Discussion - and that's exactly what happened, so it all worked out well.

 

[xoprincessmomxo]

I would have been upset as well. If it is a debate class, they should have been taught to debate with facts, not personal views. Bigoted, hurtful remarks like that have no place in a classroom. Could you imagine if those children were making racist remarks? Too me, same thing. Especially if there were a child in there who was gay. Awful.

While debating the law is one thing, the argument should never have included personal view points such as gay people not being able to love each other as much as straight people.

I am glad that you stood up and let the teacher know that it was inappropriate.

 

[WeLoveLilo05]

I think that someone is always going to be offended by someone else's viewpoint,so to say don't say your view because it might offend someone else is sad.

Well, sadly, I don't agree (and I don't think anyone else would either) that a gay person can't love another gay person as much as a straight person can love another straight person.
Debating is great, but usually *effective* debates are based upon facts, bringing those facts to the table and then giving your opinion on those facts, not based solely on opinions. Also research should be a part of any debate.
And knowing 8th grade, some other inappropriate things were probably said, maybe this topic would have been better for HS or college, not 8th grade.
Also what if there was a gay child in the class, or a child who had gay parents.
I am sorry, I am all for civil debates, but just not liking the bigotry that occurred during this debate.

 

[Carly_Roach]

Bigotry, however, is a fact of life. And what better place to teach children how to handle it than during a school debate? Or discussing it with their parents when they get home.

I grew up in the 70's and knew many students who were prejudiced against blacks and jews and you can just imagine how they felt about gays. Their views were well know whether it was in the classroom or in the hallways. Teachers in that time set a good example by policing the classrooms and not allowing those kinds of remarks to stand (within their earshot).

When I'd go home and discuss these issues with my parents, they'd reinforce what we'd always been taught about other people and the values our family held for generations. There were no dramatic phone calls to the school, no demands that these racists and bigots be 'brought to justice'. Just very simple and eloquent reasons for why we don't behave in that manner and how to tactfully deal with someone whose opinions we don't necessarily agree with.

I honestly believe that more can be taught by behavior rather than by mandate. It doesn't provide the instant gratification that people today seem to want, but it IS effective. Having nothing to do with the bigot or zealot, or politely dismissing their arguments as unworthy, sends out a more powerful message than actually punishing them for their (parent's) notions would accomplish.

That's just my opinion based on my own experience, however. YMMV.

 

[kidzmom3]

being against gay marriage is usually more of a moral stance. Therefore it would be very difficult to "prove" in a debate with only factual statements that it should not be allowed. Because facts would not matter. It is that persons moral and perhaps religious beliefs. For an 8th grader, they are most likely only parroting what they have learned at home or in their churches.

 

[Planogirl]

I think that when insulting comments were made it might have been more effective to ask the student making the comments to expand on their thoughts and explain further. I know this is not in debate format but I think that getting students to think about and explain what they're saying is way more effective than just telling them not to say bad things.

 

[PghLybrt]

I applaud you for speaking up, more so for your daughter doing so. A debate is based on facts., What happened in that classroom sounds more like a gay bashing then a debate.

 

[TheZue]

I have a totally different take on this. I'd be wondering why they were debating American topics in a Canadian classroom. It's been legal in Canada since 2005, it hasn't been an issue in any recent elections federal or provincial. The only place it's still a relavant debate is in the US. It's about as relavent as debating whether Canada should be in Iraq...which was also settled years ago when we didn't go. It's just not a Canadian issue anymore.

 

[tasha99]

I think that when insulting comments were made it might have been more effective to ask the student making the comments to expand on their thoughts and explain further. I know this is not in debate format but I think that getting students to think about and explain what they're saying is way more effective than just telling them not to say bad things.

I agree with this. For example, the Adam and Steve comment could be explored. Basically it's saying gay marriage is not Biblical. That could be argued--our nation was founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs, or refuted --separation of church and state.

I am for gay marriage, but this debate would not have offended me. It sounds like the teacher just needed to step in and provide more scaffolding.

 

[cats mom]

I have an 8th grader and I don't think gay marriage is an inappropriate topic for debate at that age, although I'm not sure how topical it is in a Canadian classroom.

I do think the teacher needed to provide a much better understanding of what constitutes a proper debate though.

There was no guidance from the teacher regarding the difference between opinion and fact. Arguments were not required to be backed up with anything concrete as this was apparently an exercise in pure rhetoric, not in research.

If she was going to go the excercise in rhetoric route, then she should have been more involved as a facilitator than you would expect in a formal, properly researched, supported, and defended debate.

With an 8th grader I probably would have encouraged my child to speak to the teacher about his/her concerns if he/she felt strongly enough about it. Otherwise I think I would have just handled it at home, but discussions about filtering nonsense are fairly common at our house.

I am glad your DD feels better about things now OP.

 

[Magpie]

Oh, no, I was commending you for not involving the principal, not saying you shouldn't have written the teacher. That's exactly what I would have done, and it didn't sound like you were "yelling" at the teacher in email, just making her aware of your take on the situation. I would so rather a parent did that than to keep it to themselves, because if it upset one student, there are likely others who were upset as well and it needed to be addressed.

The little boy I babysit has that kind of memory. He is only 4 and after he hears a story once or twice, he can repeat it verbatim. And they aren't kid stories, they're books about what era a dinosaur lived in or how a steam engine works or something like that. It is amazing!

Marsha

I really didn't want to get my daughter's teacher in trouble. And I wasn't mean in my letter, because I really do like her and I know she's a sweetheart.

The eidetic memory thing is definitely amazing, but it can also lead to some funny situations. My daughter doesn't always *think* about the things she's heard, she just stuffs them away in her head. So we've had situations like where she'll lean over a bridge and exclaim, "Oh, look at the azure waters!" But that muddy little trickle is actually just icky brown, not blue at all. She frequently doesn't know the meaning of what she's saying.

 

[Magpie]

I have an 8th grader and I don't think gay marriage is an inappropriate topic for debate at that age, although I'm not sure how topical it is in a Canadian classroom.

I do think the teacher needed to provide a much better understanding of what constitutes a proper debate though.

I agree!

If she was going to go the excercise in rhetoric route, then she should have been more involved as a facilitator than you would expect in a formal, properly researched, supported, and defended debate.

With an 8th grader I probably would have encouraged my child to speak to the teacher about his/her concerns if he/she felt strongly enough about it. Otherwise I think I would have just handled it at home, but discussions about filtering nonsense are fairly common at our house.

I am glad your DD feels better about things now OP.

My daughter helped compose the letter we wrote and hand delivered it to the teacher.

And it sounds like the discussion it sparked in class was a good one, and quite wide ranging, too. Interestingly, while my daughter maintained that homosexuality *should* be discussed openly in school, the boy who'd started all this disagreed. He said that homosexuality shouldn't ever be mentioned in school, because then kids won't know what it is, and if they don't know it exists then they can't discriminate against anyone because of it.

The discussion didn't just stop in the classroom, either. Somehow it spilled over onto the school bus (probably because my daughter was filling her brother in on all the excitement), became a discussion around sex in general, and ended with my children charging in the door saying, "So-and-so doesn't know where babies come from! And he's in Grade SIX!"

I was a bit worried at the idea of my 7th and 8th grader enlightening some poor 6th grader on the school bus, but as it turned out all they did was ask him, "Where do babies come from?"

"From the mommy?" answered the 6th grader.

"Be more specific!" demanded my kids.

"From the mommy's tummy?"

"He doesn't know! Hey kid, go home and ask your parents. Seriously, ask them! Like, right away! As soon as you get off the bus!"

I can't imagine what that homecoming scene must have been like.

 

[Sarah_Rose]

I absolutely think you did the right thing by writing the letter to your DD's teacher! There is nothing wrong with debating controversial issues (although, gay marriage is not a controversial issue in Canada - it is simply a basic human right) in school, however there is a lot wrong with a teacher allowing students to use non-factual personal opinions as part of a formal debate. It doesn't matter whether the student actually holds these beliefs; the students learn nothing by spouting off unresearched personal opinions during a structured school activity, instead of facts from reliable sources that can be backed up.

It really sounds more like a badly-planned student activity than anything else, and the teacher herself benefits from being given feedback in a non-confontational way. It sounds like she immediately realized her errors, and having the opportunity to constructively discuss how the activity could be better structured in the future should be appreciated by the teacher. As a young teacher, I often had a friendly colleague sit in on my lesson, if I wasn't sure about how it would go over. The chance to discuss the end result was always worth any potential embarassment while the actual lesson was happening.

 

[ms.yt]

I agree!



My daughter helped compose the letter we wrote and hand delivered it to the teacher.

And it sounds like the discussion it sparked in class was a good one, and quite wide ranging, too. Interestingly, while my daughter maintained that homosexuality *should* be discussed openly in school, the boy who'd started all this disagreed. He said that homosexuality shouldn't ever be mentioned in school, because then kids won't know what it is, and if they don't know it exists then they can't discriminate against anyone because of it.

The discussion didn't just stop in the classroom, either. Somehow it spilled over onto the school bus (probably because my daughter was filling her brother in on all the excitement), became a discussion around sex in general, and ended with my children charging in the door saying, "So-and-so doesn't know where babies come from! And he's in Grade SIX!"

I was a bit worried at the idea of my 7th and 8th grader enlightening some poor 6th grader on the school bus, but as it turned out all they did was ask him, "Where do babies come from?"

"From the mommy?" answered the 6th grader.

"Be more specific!" demanded my kids.

"From the mommy's tummy?"

"He doesn't know! Hey kid, go home and ask your parents. Seriously, ask them! Like, right away! As soon as you get off the bus!"

I can't imagine what that homecoming scene must have been like.

I am a high school speech teacher in Arkansas, and I've had to prohibit the topics of gay marriage and abortion in my classroom when we do debate. There are two main reasons I have this rule. We live in such a deeply religious part of the south that there are very, very few people who will actually admit to being for either of these issues. If I allowed the kids to debate these topics, I would likely have to force most of the kids to be for either gay marriage or abortion, as I doubt anybody would admit they were for either of the issues even if they were. I would very likely be fired after parents flooded the school board with complaints if I made their kids debate such "ungodly" topics. Also, any kids who did debate for those topics would probably be bullied by the other kids because it went against their beliefs. Real progressive, isn't it?