How would you reform the US Education system.

[NCRedding]

You have to keep in mind that statistics can be misleading.

Here's an example that makes me a little mad: My daughter has a good friend who's an excellent student, always made excellent grades, was involved in school activities, etc. Her parents both had medical-something jobs at the hospital, and she has plans to do something similar. Her older sister is in college, and she's definitely going to college.

Now, here's where my story really begins: Her dad got a new job somewhere up North, and they moved away. According to statistics, SHE IS NOW A HIGH SCHOOL DROP OUT.

Yes, our school is forced to count this girl -- an outstanding student -- as one of our yearly drop outs. No matter that she is now enrolled in a new school up north and will absolutely graduate on time from that school. She is a drop out, a black mark against our school, a negative mark on our school's reputation. That's beyond unfair -- it's a lie!

Think about how many teenagers move back and forth between mom's house and dad's house at some point in their high school career. If they change schools in the process, statistically they become drop outs.

Similarly, a kid who falls behind academically -- let's say a girl who has a baby her junior year and fails several classes, but then gets back on track and graduates a year late -- is counted as a drop out!

So don't take that 65% of all American kids gradaute from high school statistic all that seriously.

NC is now changing this. If a school system can verify where the student moved to and whether that student graduated, they can be excluded as a drop-out. They are also looking at a 5 year cohort group as opposed to the standard 4. Provides some assistance, but still isn't a true test of graduation rates.

I agree that unless societal changes occur where education is truly valued, the educational system will continue as it is.

 

[castleview]

So when the student is in the mainstream class, they have a 1-1 aide, SpEd teacher as well as the classroom teacher with them?

In and out depending upon the lesson. One girl in DD's class is on a trach (sp?) and a vent and has two aides with her at all times.

 

[dejr_8]

Re: Attracting better teachers.

I think it would better to make a teaching degree a 5 or 6 year program. You would first have to obtain a traditional B.S. degree in a core subject. Math, science, English, etc. After demonstrating that mastery you would then be taught how to teach.

 

[Mickeypooh99]

That is because the education isn't there. My dd has to fight to take a higher level class even though she is more than capable. What a joke.

They have watered the schools down so they can get the money however the result is that the kids are bored want more and they are not allowed to go for it.

Why in the hell does my nerdy kid need to take PE? She would be better off taking a computer class. Don't give me your mumbo jumbo how important PE is...that is baloney.

The problem is that the curriculums stink on ice.

She could probably take a community college class NOW in english and do well.

In fact there are many students in her middle school ready for community college level classes and they can't advance because of "the rules".

Her friend Buddy last yr (7th grade) almost got a perfect score on the ACT. His math skills are at a University level and he is held back. Plus he is writing computer programs already.

My oldest would have KILLED for foreign language. She would have taken it up to her eyeballs if she could. However again PE and MO required classes are SOOOO important. NOT!

I will stop ranting now.

I completely agree with you. I can't believe people who look at a child who is advanced in K or 1st grade and says don't worry it will all even out by 3rd or 4th grade. No wonder it evens out with some of the kids. They aren't given the opportunity to advance. They sit in a class where they already know the material being taught. Nobody bothers to teach them new things. The teacher is busy teaching the kids who are behind. They don't worry about the kid who is ahead.

I'm lucky my oldest is self motivated. He teaches himself. He continues to be at the top of his class each year. (he has already skipped one grade.) So it doesn't always even out. If these children were given more guidance from their teachers they could go so much further.

My youngest happens to fit in great with his class. He gets a lot out of school because he is more average.

Kids are different. They shouldn't all be expected to learn the same things at the same pace.

 

[daughtersrus]

The severely disabled should receive services but not in schools. What exactly are they being educated in? They are not learning math or science.

The amount spent is staggering.

Where should the daily living and life skills be taught if not in school? Without these skills, the cost to the taxpayers would be much greater.

One thing to keep in mind is that educational does not always equal academic.

Re: Attracting better teachers.

I think it would better to make a teaching degree a 5 or 6 year program. You would first have to obtain a traditional B.S. degree in a core subject. Math, science, English, etc. After demonstrating that mastery you would then be taught how to teach.

Which core subject would that be for ElmEd and SpEd teachers?

In and out depending upon the lesson. One girl in DD's class is on a trach (sp?) and a vent and has two aides with her at all times.

The second aide is probably not an aide but a nurse.

 

[eliza61]

I would vote for you. Everything you say makes perfect sense to me.

I have friends and old co workers that have plumbing businesses in their families. They made more money than any of us. Nothing wrong with trade schools. People will always need plumbers and mechanics and other trades, no matter what the economy is. I tell my kids this all the time.

It is a shame that people look down on trade schools. My son graduated h.s. last year and I heard him talking with a bunch of his friends about how trade school was for "losers". I told him next time we have to get the roof repaired I'll let him pay the bill and he can tell me all about being a "loser".

Has anyone heard about a Man name Geoffrey Canada. he runs a school call Promise Academy and Harlem childrens zone. 100% of their 3rd graders are above grade level and 87% of the 8th graders. He just had a documentary made about his school and the innovative ways it is teaching kids.

A few great things about his school.

Teachers may not make 100K but they are supported and valued. They are not made scape goats when a child is not performing. Administration, teachers and parents work together.

parents are required to be involved. NO excuses. don't care if you are working 25 jobs, single parent, what ever. There is a strong sense of parental accountability.

Holistic approach to teaching. Teachers are allowed to educate kids, not just "teach" to a test.

http://www.hcz.org/home

 

[DawnM]

This is how it is done in California. You get your B.A. in your field of study (or Liberal Studies for elem. age) and then graduate. YOu then go for what is called a "5th year" which is your teacher training.

Dawn

Re: Attracting better teachers.

I think it would better to make a teaching degree a 5 or 6 year program. You would first have to obtain a traditional B.S. degree in a core subject. Math, science, English, etc. After demonstrating that mastery you would then be taught how to teach.

 

[DawnM]

I am not getting your argument.

Older teachers should be shoved out of jobs so that new teachers can take those jobs?

Dawn

Tell that to the "Best" and "Brightest" in Pennsylvania. Our Universities are pumping out great prospects to the point that they have NOWHERE to teach anymore.

I guarantee that some of these graduates could teach rings around a lot of the teachers, but tenure and Union protection allow those teachers to block these new teachers from coming aboard.

All of this occurred because of the ever-escalating salaries in Pennsylvania. Many Districts now have teachers making $80,000-$100,000+ per year.

So it is BECAUSE of the higher salaries that these teachers never leave, and don't allow better teachers to take their places.

As a PP said, throwing money and salaries at the Districts is never going to solve the problems. In our State it has only created more.

 

[golfgal]

You have to keep in mind that statistics can be misleading.

Here's an example that makes me a little mad: My daughter has a good friend who's an excellent student, always made excellent grades, was involved in school activities, etc. Her parents both had medical-something jobs at the hospital, and she has plans to do something similar. Her older sister is in college, and she's definitely going to college.

Now, here's where my story really begins: Her dad got a new job somewhere up North, and they moved away. According to statistics, SHE IS NOW A HIGH SCHOOL DROP OUT.

Yes, our school is forced to count this girl -- an outstanding student -- as one of our yearly drop outs. No matter that she is now enrolled in a new school up north and will absolutely graduate on time from that school. She is a drop out, a black mark against our school, a negative mark on our school's reputation. That's beyond unfair -- it's a lie!

Think about how many teenagers move back and forth between mom's house and dad's house at some point in their high school career. If they change schools in the process, statistically they become drop outs.

Similarly, a kid who falls behind academically -- let's say a girl who has a baby her junior year and fails several classes, but then gets back on track and graduates a year late -- is counted as a drop out!

So don't take that 65% of all American kids gradaute from high school statistic all that seriously.

This is NOT how it is done in most states. A transfer student is just that, a transfer student, not a drop out. It is a shame that your state counts it this way.

Neither do I. In the 19 years I've been teaching high school (and I'm estimating that I've taught about 2,300 students), I've had three students with a one-on-one aide.

One was a Willie M kid (he actually died during the semester -- No! Not in my class! Not even in school!).
One was deaf and had an interpreter.
One was severely autistic and had a behavioral manager.

A one-on-one aid is very rare.

Again, maybe in your school but I know in our schools MANY, MANY, MANY kids have a 1 to 1 aid. That aid may help other kids in the classroom because she is there but she is there to be with that student. These are not even kids that are severely handicapped, these are kids that have IEP's, are mainstreamed and have an aid assigned to help in whatever way they need-staying on task, reading problems, etc. That aid is with the same child ALL DAY.

The severely disabled should receive services but not in schools. What exactly are they being educated in? They are not learning math or science.

The amount spent is staggering.

I agree-or at least the federal government should fund these programs as promised vs leaving the burden on the shoulders of the school budgets.

 

[castleview]

Which core subject would that be for ElmEd and SpEd teachers?



The second aide is probably not an aide but a nurse.

That's my guess, but she's not the regular school nurse.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

My DD started taking classes at the community college at the age of 14. My DD is NOT gifted. She is your average, normal kid. She excels at some subjects and stinks royally at math. She has straight A's at the CC and is in their honors program. Believe me when I say I am not bragging. I am beyond frustrated that she has yet to have a challenging class after three semesters. They couldn't possibly dumb these classes down any more if they tried. The only challenge is figuring out what each professor wants (MLA format, stapled pages, hand written corrections in the margins, etc). Academically, it is a joke. But they don't have a choice but to dumb it down. These kids entering the CC system are not prepared. I don't know what the answer is but what we are doing isn't working.

Now see....should she take AP or CC when she gets to HS. I am wrestling with that issue. We have time to think about it.

That is nice your dd gets to do that even though it is subpar. Here they only allow it in your JR/SR yr of HS and get this, they discourage taking more than 2 classes in a semester.

We are just going to supplement her with academic scholar programs until she gets to that level however they are NOT CHEAP!

The rub is that she goes back to the middle school and it is like elementary school to her.

I am keeping my fingers crossed that she tests into the honors level. She wants that english class so bad and the teacher wants her. So stupid.

 

[dejr_8]

Where should the daily living and life skills be taught if not in school? Without these skills, the cost to the taxpayers would be much greater.

One thing to keep in mind is that educational does not always equal academic.




Which core subject would that be for ElmEd and SpEd teachers?



The second aide is probably not an aide but a nurse.

Child Development
Psychology
Social Work

 

[Toad_Passenger]

I am not getting your argument.

Older teachers should be shoved out of jobs so that new teachers can take those jobs?

Dawn

If you read my argument carefully (and in context of the previous messages) I was saying that ANY teacher (young or old) who is not fulfilling the same duties that their peers are, or are consistently being outperformed by their peers, should be shoved out of their jobs.

Under the current system of tenure and Union protection, teachers who prefer to kick their feet up and reap the benefits of yearly step increases, and multi-year contracts, are taking up space for new graduates who actually WANT to teach and would do it regardless of contract or salary.

 

[cm8]

Please keep this non-political, Please.

I guess there is talk again that we are slipping behind the rest of the world in education (at least that was one of the segments on "Morning Joe" today). So how would YOU like to see the education system changed.

Here's what I would do

1) Bring back excellence.

In an effort to make every child feel special, we no longer celebrate academic excellence. For example, High Schools are eliminating the Valedictorian. In my son's K-8 school, the acknowledgement for students making the A or A/B honor was degraded from a celebratory breakfast with special certificates to an all students assembly with virtually every student receiving some sort of award. There is a certificate for students that raise a SINGLE class grade one level (i.e. a C to a B). Even my son realizes his A or A/B honor role award is no longer special.

2) Reduce the emphasis on extracurricular activities.

I know colleges are partly responsible for this because they now consider extracurricular activities as an important part of the application. But in reality there are a limited number of hours in each day and every hour spent on extracurricular activities is one hour less spend learning or studying.

3) Bring back Trade/tech schools.

Not every child is going to be a surgeon. Some are going to be mechanics or plumbers. It seems that Tech schools have lost favor because they are viewed as inferior education. They're not. They are preparing certain students for a career that doesn't require college. Nothing wrong with that.

I agree with what you have stated. I also think that it all starts at home.
I remember when it used to be PTSA, Parents, Teachers, Students Association, we were all accountable for the actions of each and no one wanted to be more important than the others. The things are taught in the PS today are making the kids dumber and lazy. There is no more personal accountability. Teachers can't teach for having to deal with the behavior of students that disrupt the classes.

I remember growing up that if you misbehaved the Principal had the authority ( if granted ) to paddle that behind into good behavior. I know that my Mom didn't give permission for the Principal to paddle us, she did it herself and IN FRONT of the Teacher and the class if applicable. She made it her business to come to all meetings and conferences even though she was a divorced single mom who was in Med school. She taught us that acting up was not tolerated and that we had better learn fast the real meaning of school was.

Now days, children go to school to be with their friends, they barely learn anything and are not inspired to want more from life. I thank God that my Mother was able to discipline us in a way that motivated us to be successful in life We went to school for learning and achieving a better way of life. Society now has a mindset that if you don't "make it" in life, someone will be there to take care of you, You have teens making the same mistake there parents made and parents acting a fool for the way their children behave and making it hard on the teachers.

Teachers can't teach anymore cause they are afraid they will be accused of something by some of those same so called students. I don't think our educational system will change anytime soon. I think it is always and will always be a reflection of our society and as long as that view remains twisted and parents not able to really parent the child with out being considered an abuser, learning will be the same
JMHO

 

[daughtersrus]

This is how it is done in California. You get your B.A. in your field of study (or Liberal Studies for elem. age) and then graduate. YOu then go for what is called a "5th year" which is your teacher training.

Dawn

Between Practicum, Field Base and Student Teaching, my DD was in a classroom for 3 semesters prior to getting her BS in SpEd.

 

[chicagodisneyfan]

Where should the daily living and life skills be taught if not in school? Without these skills, the cost to the taxpayers would be much greater.

One thing to keep in mind is that educational does not always equal academic.

.

Uh - the same place the rest of us learn daily living skills and life skills! Home.

 

[daughtersrus]

Uh - the same place the rest of us learn daily living skills and life skills! Home.

Why not learn math, reading, writing, science, social studies... at home as well and do away with public education?

Under the current system of tenure and Union protection, teachers who prefer to kick their feet up and reap the benefits of yearly step increases, and multi-year contracts, are taking up space for new graduates who actually WANT to teach and would do it regardless of contract or salary.

This seems to be a common misconception. Teachers with tenure are not guaranteed a job. They can be fired.

Child Development
Psychology
Social Work

Child development, psychology, sociology are all classes that teachers take. Are you saying that you need to be a psychologist and social worker before you can student teach and then get your teaching cert?

I remember growing up that if you misbehaved the Principal had the authority ( if granted ) to paddle that behind into good behavior.

Corporal punishment in public school is still legal in many states (22, I think).

 

[The Mystery Machine]

Why not learn math, reading, writing, science, social studies... at home as well and do away with public education?

My kids and I agree that going to school and learning those things makes us not kill each other.

They absolutely prefer to go to school. Homeschooling to them equates with stabbing of eyes with forks.

And well, my kids are so far ahead of me in math that I could not do it.

 

[Toad_Passenger]

This seems to be a common misconception. Teachers with tenure are not guaranteed a job. They can be fired.

Good luck with that. The last time that was attempted in a neighboring district, the State Union rep came to town and threatened all sorts of grievances that were going to be filed on that teacher's behalf, as well as a bunch of others that suddenly materialized.

There's a reason I lump tenure & Union protection together. It's all part of the politicization of our education system, and, as I said, the politics are the main reasons we are heading toward a public education crisis (if we aren't there already).

 

[MarkBarbieri]

I'd make several changes.

First, I'd reduce the size of school districts. I don't think that they gain significant economies of scale by being larger. Instead, I think that they lose accountability to the parents. In smaller districts, parents would have more control.

Set up a reliable and equitable means for funding school districts. Do it in a way that schools and districts that don't perform well lose students to schools that do. Encourage areas to experiment with a variety of school choice options. These could be charter schools, vouchers, or evening overlapping districts. The competition would be good for the schools and it would prevent students from being stuck in failing schools.

I would give the school districts much, much more autonomy. I trust the local voters to keep the school district in line more than I do state or federal guidelines. More autonomy would mean less administrative overhead and less straight-jacketing.

I would make teacher pay more variable and tied to performance. I would end tenure. Underperforming teachers should find other careers. Great teachers should be financially induced to continue teaching.

I would end education standards for teachers. It would be up to each district to set their own hiring standards.

I would end teachers unions or, at the very least, make all school worker positions "right-to-work".

The main thrust of my suggestions are to make schools more accountable to parents, to free schools from rules so that they can do what works best for their students, and to set up incentives to reward success and discourage things that don't work. I don't think that the answer is in dictating more or less testing, state standards for class sizes, or things like that. Let each district work out its own solutions to those problems and give parents the final say on which schools are doing a good job and which aren't.

I realize that would lead to some pretty wacko school districts emphasizing some out-of-the-box teaching. You might have creationist schools. You might have gradeless, non-competitive schools. You might have schools that track students strongly by ability or those that keep all kids grouped together. Time and parents will sort out what works and what doesn't.