How to figure out how much your DVC stays REALLY cost...

[Dean]

We have never stayed off site as a family. Maybe when the kids are older it might work out for us, but I did it as a kid. I never stayed on property growing up. I HATED it. There are plenty of places to visit florida other than Orlando to vacation, but when we go to orlando, it's because of Disney. For us, driving is not something we want to do from the Northeast, and the cost of renting a car to stay offsite just isn't worth it.

I like the microwave in the studios as we do cook, and the kitchens have been great when we stayed in the 2 bedrooms. I have friends that scoff that they don't want to cook on vacation. Me? I don't want to drive. It's one of those things about vacation that makes it a vacation for me. To each their own.

In part, that's my point. You (as representative of the principle) haven't stayed in a comparable off site option so you don't really know how you'd like it in that situation staying in a resort as nice or nicer overall than DVC. We find we enjoy both for different reasons though my preference for Disney park trips is for DVC. The best comparison for this situation is Wyndham's Bonnet creek given it's essentially an on property location but without the bus service.

 

[Mickey'sApprentice]

Dean, I understand that time and things change. My DH and I own 100 points at BWV. We went through a time when we had addonitis when money was tight. The result was that we stayed at 100 points. Now that the new has worn off...I'm glad that we stayed at 100 points. It is a conservative amount that suits us fine.

If we increase our points in the future it will be because of changes in our family or our vacation style.

 

[Dean]

Dean, I understand that time and things change. My DH and I own 100 points at BWV. We went through a time when we had addonitis when money was tight. The result was that we stayed at 100 points. Now that the new has worn off...I'm glad that we stayed at 100 points. It is a conservative amount that suits us fine.

If we increase our points in the future it will be because of changes in our family or our vacation style.

You've done better than most. If it suits your needs and you can keep it smaller, you'll have less risk going forward.

 

[jillmc40]

In part, that's my point. You (as representative of the principle) haven't stayed in a comparable off site option so you don't really know how you'd like it in that situation staying in a resort as nice or nicer overall than DVC. We find we enjoy both for different reasons though my preference for Disney park trips is for DVC. The best comparison for this situation is Wyndham's Bonnet creek given it's essentially an on property location but without the bus service.

I agree with Dean. We stay off site for a week in a beautiful 2 bedroom condo around Easter, and end the trip in a DVC for 3 nights...Hardly anyone else is in the pools, using the tennis courts, etc. We get a car (have an AP so free parking), go to the grocery, run to Target if we forget something, and I feel like I take a little break at the end of the night. We get there early so we park right in front...However...I live outside NYC. I commute to work every day on either a train or a bus. So for me, a vacation is when I get to drive and be in control and not wait on the corner for someone else to pick me up

I grew up staying in DVC (whatever it was called back then) every year and thought I would hate being off site, but for some reason I love it

We still bought VGF, because I like to stay at GF in the fall for a long weekend. I knew it would be hard to get at that time with a 7 month window, and paying cash is expensive - even with a 35% ap discount So for us, I thought it made sense! 30 years from now I hope it still makes sense...

 

[JimMIA]

I can give you a different real-life comparison. This is NOT a hypothetical; we have an OKW 2 Bedroom from 12/14 to 12/21 on an RCI exchange using our Wyndham points.

We got our 501,000 Wyndham points for <$2,000 including all closing and transfer fees...so essentially for nothing, and I've long since recouped that nominal cost. Our dues are $4.48 per thousand points and we're using 126,000 points for this reservation.

Our actual costs are as follows:

• MF's: $4.48 X 126 = $564.48
• RCI online exchange fee: $199.00
• DVC "because-we-can" fee: $95.00
• TOTAL: $858.48 for the seven nights in the OKW 2 BR or $122.64 per night.

If I'd used my former OKW points, this stay would have cost me 229 points @ a per point cost (including $2.00 per point acquisition cost) of $7.34 per point = $1,680.86.

Now obviously, I can't just book an RCI exchange into DVC whenever I want. But when I can, sometimes it will work out considerably less expensive than DVC.

My point is that you can construct a model (or even find a real-world example) to give yourself any answer you want.

 

[luckyman_apd]

In part, that's my point. You (as representative of the principle) haven't stayed in a comparable off site option so you don't really know how you'd like it in that situation staying in a resort as nice or nicer overall than DVC. We find we enjoy both for different reasons though my preference for Disney park trips is for DVC. The best comparison for this situation is Wyndham's Bonnet creek given it's essentially an on property location but without the bus service.

I don't discredit what you're saying at all. I criticize most people who bash something who have never tried it. We visited Disneyland last year. We stayed offsite. And while we loved Disneyland parks better than WDW, it's that immersion factor we missed. Staying in a luxury place offsite still won't give us that. And that is why we bought DVC (among other reasons). We bought BLT because of the 10 minute walk to MK. I'm not going to get that at any offsite property.

Like the previous poster said, we bought 125 points and have gone though the "do we have enough points"/ addonitis conversation more than once. But the ability to transfer in points has fixed that. I'll never get in over my head. I envision a day when we won't want to go as much, kids will be older and busier, etc. bottom line is on property is our thing....and DVC does it for less than if we didn't have it.

It's also the pragmatic voices of yourself and Disneynuts that keep things in perspective for me so I don't ever go overboard

 

[disneynutz]

I wonder if Disney will still own Disney in 30 years?

Bill

 

[JimMIA]

The best comparison for this situation is Wyndham's Bonnet creek given it's essentially an on property location but without the bus service.

Actually, WBC does have a bus service, but it's not Disney's bus service. It's a scheduled service to all four theme parks and Downtown Disney, rather than the unscheduled but frequent service Disney offers. People who use it find it workable.

There is also now a small daily charge for WBC's bus service. It's not much, but it's per person, so if you have a large party it will mount up.

For convenience, I'd say WBC is equivalent to OKW and SSR and superior to AKV and all of the Disney value resorts. Obviously there is no comparison to the walk-to convenience of some of the DVC resorts.

For amenities, WBC is better than DVC.

For theming, obviously DVC is better -- WBC is a high-rise condo park.

For pricing, WBC is a fraction of the cost of DVC.

 

[Dean]

I don't discredit what you're saying at all. I criticize most people who bash something who have never tried it. We visited Disneyland last year. We stayed offsite. And while we loved Disneyland parks better than WDW, it's that immersion factor we missed. Staying in a luxury place offsite still won't give us that. And that is why we bought DVC (among other reasons). We bought BLT because of the 10 minute walk to MK. I'm not going to get that at any offsite property.

Like the previous poster said, we bought 125 points and have gone though the "do we have enough points"/ addonitis conversation more than once. But the ability to transfer in points has fixed that. I'll never get in over my head. I envision a day when we won't want to go as much, kids will be older and busier, etc. bottom line is on property is our thing....and DVC does it for less than if we didn't have it.

It's also the pragmatic voices of yourself and Disneynuts that keep things in perspective for me so I don't ever go overboard

As I said above, my preference (all else equal) for Disney stays is on property and I've stayed on and off at a number of places. I feel comfortable at Disney. We do drive and this is a difference though I'd likely rent a car anyway if we had to fly because I don't find the bus system that great for Disney and I prefer to be in control. The only times we don't drive is if going to MK due to the TTC vs bus location or if we're going from one park to another. However, I don't find we miss being on property if we're staying off when I stay at top resorts. Plus, as Jim points out above, it's possible to take advantage of some much cheaper options without owning or without using one's points. I haven't had a full stay on points since maybe 2006 and that one was a 2 BR exchange for 7 nights, a 1 BR for 6 nights both SSR and 5 nights 1 BR BW view on points for my daughter and her new husband.

As for pragmatic, my view is that moderate and compromise often equate to lack of conviction. That's certainly my view when it comes to consumer debt, financing luxury items and issues of integrity like room stuffing or sneaking in to a pool.

 

[Dean]

I wonder if Disney will still own Disney in 30 years?

Bill

That's one of the risks as is the parks even being open, hopefully for our sake those issues won't happen.

Actually, WBC does have a bus service, but it's not Disney's bus service. It's a scheduled service to all four theme parks and Downtown Disney, rather than the unscheduled but frequent service Disney offers. People who use it find it workable.

There is also now a small daily charge for WBC's bus service. It's not much, but it's per person, so if you have a large party it will mount up.

For convenience, I'd say WBC is equivalent to OKW and SSR and superior to AKV and all of the Disney value resorts. Obviously there is no comparison to the walk-to convenience of some of the DVC resorts.

For amenities, WBC is better than DVC.

For theming, obviously DVC is better -- WBC is a high-rise condo park.

For pricing, WBC is a fraction of the cost of DVC.

Thanks Jim, I was aware they did but also aware that many find it less convenient overall. Most of the resorts I'd put in my A group do have some type of bus system, I believe most charge in some way or another.

 

[rmcildw2m]

I could not agree more . DVC is not cheap by any means but when staying at a deluxe villa on points verse cash you win every time . At least I do , and I hope you do too .

 

[Sur]

I factor this in too- my family is able to enjoy a vacation they love (for the forseeable future anyway) and I get some much needed time doing what I enjoy...... HUGE bonus!

 

[chrisaman]

Then I htink you're assuming that DVC will remain cheaper and you'll be happy using it in 25-30 years, again, I don't think that's a guarantee and the reverse is very possible, just another way of saying what I was saying above. Still around the best scenario possible with little but downside risk if you're wrong. I divide things up into savings and value separately. I can't speak for you of course but I'd venture that most in your situations would have both added trips or days to trips AND spent money they wouldn't have spent otherwise even beyond that. Whether that's a good or bad thing depends on many factors, many of which are emotional and/or subjective. With consumer debt and lack of attention to one's finances, it's certainly a bad thing, otherwise it depends. For me personally prior to DVC it was a long weekend for a meeting a year and a long weekend to see family once a year around the holidays. A forced vacation has not necessarily been a bad thing. However, there have been many other factors in our lives over the years that we would have done more with or without DVC and with or without timeshare in general.

I think it is a poor position to take in regards to looking at it as an investment over a long period of time. Like all investments, you cannot predict what it will be like in 30 years. Therefore, what makes DVC any different. The stock market could crash 10 years from now, inflation could sky rocket, many different things could happen. Maybe Disney becomes so in demand, that it is impossible to get a hotel room a year out and it will cost $700 (in todays money) a night to stay at a value resort. Taking the position of you don't know what is going to happen is a poor one. Putting your money into something tangable that brings joy to you are others is all that matters. That is the one thing you can predict, most DVC'ers will always love Disney (that is unless the Koreans blow it up, which we cannot predict as well)

 

[Mickey'sApprentice]

I think it is a poor position to take in regards to looking at it as an investment over a long period of time. Like all investments, you cannot predict what it will be like in 30 years. Therefore, what makes DVC any different. The stock market could crash 10 years from now, inflation could sky rocket, many different things could happen. Maybe Disney becomes so in demand, that it is impossible to get a hotel room a year out and it will cost $700 (in todays money) a night to stay at a value resort. Taking the position of you don't know what is going to happen is a poor one. Putting your money into something tangable that brings joy to you are others is all that matters. That is the one thing you can predict, most DVC'ers will always love Disney (that is unless the Koreans blow it up, which we cannot predict as well)

I'm more concerned (long-term) of the Disney company getting bought out and the parks going to a new owner that has no desire to run a theme park.

1) I would have never thought that RCA would not be a huge corporation anymore.
2) I would have never thought that Viacom would have bought Opryland and turned it into a chintzy outlet mall.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Walt Disney World will turn into a chintzy outlet mall, but could it turn into something more atuned to Six Flags in 40 years? Sure.

When was the last time you flew Pan Am?

 

[Dean]

I think it is a poor position to take in regards to looking at it as an investment over a long period of time. Like all investments, you cannot predict what it will be like in 30 years. Therefore, what makes DVC any different. The stock market could crash 10 years from now, inflation could sky rocket, many different things could happen. Maybe Disney becomes so in demand, that it is impossible to get a hotel room a year out and it will cost $700 (in todays money) a night to stay at a value resort. Taking the position of you don't know what is going to happen is a poor one. Putting your money into something tangable that brings joy to you are others is all that matters. That is the one thing you can predict, most DVC'ers will always love Disney (that is unless the Koreans blow it up, which we cannot predict as well)

You're certainly entitled to that opinion. It seems you're assuming that either DVC will be a good thing or everything is gone so it doesn't matter anyway. Frankly, I'm of the opinion that there will come a time when it costs more to own DVC than it's worth. I'm hoping that's within the last couple of years of the contract but 30 yrs is a long time. I think one can plan and make reasonable assumption a lot better about investments than a timeshare, including DVC. The bottom line is IT IS a gamble, one that we as owners are betting will pay off over the long term. It's these concerns and uncertainties that present risk, IMO, far more than a real investment. Essentially everyone who posts a financial buy in or ownership evaluation is looking at essentially best case scenario and ignoring the risks involved both personally and on the DVC side.

It is my opinion that the assumption that DVC will be a desirable option late in the course, be financially reasonable and that one (or family) will want to go for the entire length of a contract ALL is pretty optimistic view. The idea that one will even be able to get out late in the ROFR if they want, is also unlikely to be accurate IMO.

 

[Mystery Fan]

Yes, potential buyers and purchasers probably did not perform a complete risk/reward, cost/benefit, opportunity cost, net present value analysis when making a decision.

That horse is dead.

Individual's views of risk, the future, financial situation, vacationing preferences, etc; are all unique to their situation.

If you own DVC, I am with you in the faith that it will be a rewarding ownership.

Welcome Home!

 

[Dean]

Yes, potential buyers and purchasers probably did not perform a complete risk/reward, cost/benefit, opportunity cost, net present value analysis when making a decision.

That horse is dead.

Individual's views of risk, the future, financial situation, vacationing preferences, etc; are all unique to their situation.

If you own DVC, I am with you in the faith that it will be a rewarding ownership.

Welcome Home!

But it's not a dead horse. It's an issue that everyone thinking about buying must consider and it really should be an issue that every owner considers periodically based on their best assumptions and their own situations.

 

[bom_noite]

But it's not a dead horse. It's an issue that everyone thinking about buying must consider and it really should be an issue that every owner considers periodically based on their best assumptions and their own situations.

Dean, with all due respect you are the most thoughtful, enlightened, educated and succinct person on these boards. And, I risk replying as you are the one Dis-Board Lurker I don't want to get in to a argument with: 1) I respect you that much and 2) I will lose and lose big!

I have always said this cost-benefit spreadsheet calculation analysis is silly. Good if you are a business - makes no sense if you love WDW and want to go every year. You simply cannot take all of the tangible benefits a DVC Membership offers and grind it in to an equation.

My Cost Benefit Analysis is this simple:

Cost:

• Paid 12.5K for initial points.
• Have paid upwards of 8K in dues over the last 10 years.
• Total Cost = $20K to $21K

Benefit:

• Ten Years of 5 to 7 day vacations with my kids.
• During 5 years have taken advantage of OKW GV Rooms with a rack rate of $1800 a night (or $9K per week).
• Had the privilege to take one of the greatest people I ever met - my MIL (who died this year) - on 9 WDW vacations. She could not afford to take me to Waffle House - and if she did I would have paid.
• We have taken a dozen of my kids friends on a vacation they nor their families could afford.
• We have taken a dozen other family members who had never been to WDW, nor, could have ever afforded going with out a free room (on or off-site).
• We have lasting memories as a family.
• As my kids are college age (one is a current Dis College Program member - the other an Ex DCP) - I get to now go down with my wife "solo" and spend a good time in our middle age years! If she opts out - I will find a girl-friend (Joke).
• I have a place to take my Grand-Kids, when they come and if I am still around.
• I can sell / rent next years points to help fund a vacation somewhere else.
• I can just sell out and get my original investment back - and will profit!

With all due respect, my profession is a MS Office Programmer. I make good money coding spreadsheets for my company and a number of loyal customers (in my spare time). What I am saying does not fit nicely in to a spreadsheet. You want a spreadsheet? Have been building them for 25+ years! Give me values on the esoteric qualities I listed in my benefits! You simply cant do it!

IMHO: If you love WDW and want to go there yearly - then - DVC is the better then sliced bread. I am a huge winner! But, I nor anyone can construct a $ value to provide a quantitative analysis on my personal PL - and it is silly to even try!

You should know that while I have flown over 3 Million miles in the last 20 years - my wife will not step on a plane! No issues, OKW is our 2nd home, we all love it and will not spend money going somewhere else.

 

[Dean]

Dean, with all due respect you are the most thoughtful, enlightened, educated and succinct person on these boards. And, I risk replying as you are the one Dis-Board Lurker I don't want to get in to a argument with: 1) I respect you that much and 2) I will lose and lose big!

I have always said this cost-benefit spreadsheet calculation analysis is silly. Good if you are a business - makes no sense if you love WDW and want to go every year. You simply cannot take all of the tangible benefits a DVC Membership offers and grind it in to an equation.

My Cost Benefit Analysis is this simple:

Cost:

• Paid 12.5K for initial points.
• Have paid upwards of 8K in dues over the last 10 years.
• Total Cost = $20K to $21K

Benefit:

• Ten Years of 5 to 7 day vacations with my kids.
• During 5 years have taken advantage of OKW GV Rooms with a rack rate of $1800 a night (or $9K per week).
• Had the privilege to take one of the greatest people I ever met - my MIL (who died this year) - on 9 WDW vacations. She could not afford to take me to Waffle House - and if she did I would have paid.
• We have taken a dozen of my kids friends on a vacation they nor their families could afford.
• We have taken a dozen other family members who had never been to WDW, nor, could have ever afforded going with out a free room (on or off-site).
• We have lasting memories as a family.
• As my kids are college age (one is a current Dis College Program member - the other an Ex DCP) - I get to now go down with my wife "solo" and spend a good time in our middle age years! If she opts out - I will find a girl-friend (Joke).
• I have a place to take my Grand-Kids, when they come and if I am still around.
• I can sell / rent next years points to help fund a vacation somewhere else.
• I can just sell out and get my original investment back - and will profit!

With all due respect, my profession is a MS Office Programmer. I make good money coding spreadsheets for my company and a number of loyal customers (in my spare time). What I am saying does not fit nicely in to a spreadsheet. You want a spreadsheet? Have been building them for 25+ years! Give me values on the esoteric qualities I listed in my benefits! You simply cant do it!

IMHO: If you love WDW and want to go there yearly - then - DVC is the better then sliced bread. I am a huge winner! But, I nor anyone can construct a $ value to provide a quantitative analysis on my personal PL - and it is silly to even try!

You should know that while I have flown over 3 Million miles in the last 20 years - my wife will not step on a plane! No issues, OKW is our 2nd home, we all love it and will not spend money going somewhere else.

No argument but I disagree with the principle that buying DVC isn't cost and real based. IMO it has to FIRST make sense financially to be reasonable to buy. IF your only chance of staying in such accommodations on property were by owning, I'd be more inclined to agree that cost wasn't as much an issue as simply being able to afford it, like buying the BMW or similar,just write the check or hand them cash. The reality is that many people stay in DVC without owning, most of my trips now days are not in units reserved by my points. I feel the "it's vacation, I deserve it and I don't even want to think about cost & value" way of thinking is an extremely poor life choice. In part that's based on the idea that under a certain financial level one can't afford and it those that are above a certain financial level won't buy DVC and that most of us members are in the middle somewhere and that throwing away thousands of dollars does matter. Put another way, someone who the value shouldn't matter to (too wealthy) likely won't buy DVC and fool with it at all. I'm also of the opinion that for many, they spend a LOT more with DVC due to the psychology of having the room already paid for. How much of an issue that is depends on their other circumstances. But as long as it's your money (no subsistence, no bankruptcy, etc), then we can all make our own decisions.

I do get that there's more than just the numbers but part of my point is that there's more potential good AND more potential bad. And that the potential bad is far more important for many than the best case scenario usually represented by their spreadsheet analysis.

 

[bom_noite]

No argument but I disagree with the principle that buying DVC isn't cost and real based. IMO it has to FIRST make sense financially to be reasonable to buy. IF your only chance of staying in such accommodations on property were by owning, I'd be more inclined to agree that cost wasn't as much an issue as simply being able to afford it, like buying the BMW or similar,just write the check or hand them cash. The reality is that many people stay in DVC without owning, most of my trips now days are not in units reserved by my points. I feel the "it's vacation, I deserve it and I don't even want to think about cost & value" way of thinking is an extremely poor life choice. In part that's based on the idea that under a certain financial level one can't afford and it those that are above a certain financial level won't buy DVC and that most of us members are in the middle somewhere and that throwing away thousands of dollars does matter. Put another way, someone who the value shouldn't matter to (too wealthy) likely won't buy DVC and fool with it at all. I'm also of the opinion that for many, they spend a LOT more with DVC due to the psychology of having the room already paid for. How much of an issue that is depends on their other circumstances. But as long as it's your money (no subsistence, no bankruptcy, etc), then we can all make our own decisions.

I do get that there's more than just the numbers but part of my point is that there's more potential good AND more potential bad. And that the potential bad is far more important for many than the best case scenario usually represented by their spreadsheet analysis.

Dean, I consider you my friend while you say: Who the H$ll is this guy? I consider you smarter then me! I consider you one of the best resources on the DVC Boards. You benefit the people reading this stuff way more then me!

Every justification I have looked at are flawed in some way or another. They seem to take in 1) All the up-front costs 2) The Due's. 3) Opportunity Costs.

Few of them - if any - reflect 1) A true reflection of WDW's escalating Hotel costs. 2) Comparison of room types. Example - I can go and get a room at a Value resort and have 100 Sq Feet, or, get a nice room with a Kitchen included - that will same me money on the Vacation. 3) The fact that you can sell x-years after and walk away even (or a portion of your investment refunded).

We bought in 93 and got 150 BCV Points for 12.5K.

• 2011: Sold our 150 BCV Points and got 190 OKW Points. Walked away with $45 in profit.
• Our OKW Contract was loaded - rented points and got $700.
• Based on what I see now - could sell my OKW points and break even or make/lose 1000.

Despite that I have estimate the Rack Rate of the rooms I have received are well in excess of $70 to $80K.

If you are buying to speculate or rent out points - a different equation. Agreed.