How many students in a class?

[DizBelle]

The fact is that there is not enough money. What are they supposed to do?

I don't think cutting a couple of positions at the district level is going to make up for a dozen or more teachers really needed to reduce the class size at all schools in the district.

I have no idea what a different solution might be. Except raising taxes to get more money.

 

[Kelrykengab]

Same here! (about the people freaking out at around 26 kids)
When my daughter was in Kindergarten the class size's started out at around 28, but the school quickly added a third teacher and the class sizes settled out closer to 16. Well when that same group of kids moved to 1st grade they didn't add another teacher, so the two classes have around 28 kids. Parents freaked out! Thankfully most parents volunteered, so the teacher had a volunteer almost every day along with a college student who came three times a week.
Next year they are expecting more incoming students, but not adding another teacher. I know several parents who have organized meetings to discuss solutions. The big problem here is that up to 40% of the student body (at least according to the parent running the meeting) is coming from out of area. I guess the principle has tried to crack down on this, but parents go over her head to the school board and get permission for their kids to attend.
It's probably no coincidence that the same parents are usually also very active with the school and make large donations. I don't think it would upset me if they were bringing underprivileged kids here from other neighborhoods (they do that in another wealthy part of town), but that's not the case. These are for the most part wealthy families who just want their kids to go to a good school with out paying for expensive private schools.
I know some of the parents whose kids come from out of bounds, and they are wonderful families, but I also understand why people in this neighborhood are upset. They paid a lot to live here.
I know I was a little ticked when after searching for a house we could afford in this neighborhood we ended up with something much smaller than we would normally rent, and my old neighbor who was looking at the same time (we were both moving out of military housing) ended up on the other side of town in a house twice as big for around the same price, but their daughters still go to our neighborhood school.

ooo that would drive me crazy!!! But what can you do?

 

[jrmasm]

The fact is that there is not enough money. What are they supposed to do?

I don't think cutting a couple of positions at the district level is going to make up for a dozen or more teachers really needed to reduce the class size at all schools in the district.

I have no idea what a different solution might be. Except raising taxes to get more money.

That's what I was wondering.

 

[DizBelle]

I see it working like this... (granted, this is pretty simple) A school district sees how much money they have in the budget. They calculate how much it will cost to provide everything they are requried to provide. The rest goes to teacher salaries. How many teachers can they afford with that money? That's how many they have. However many students they have are distributed among them.

 

[nuttylawprofessor]

I see it working like this... (granted, this is pretty simple) A school district sees how much money they have in the budget. They calculate how much it will cost to provide everything they are requried to provide. The rest goes to teacher salaries. How many teachers can they afford with that money? That's how many they have. However many students they have are distributed among them.

At a certain point, though, we have to step up as a society and say that the schools do, in fact, need more money. Illinois has a terrible record on school funding. It is one of the worst states in the nation for providing funds for schools. Because of the state budget crisis, the schools are getting left holding the bag.

 

[monkeybug]

ooo that would drive me crazy!!! But what can you do?

I don't know! I know it's the number one topic on the playground these days, and it's sort of become neighborhood parents VS. out of bounds parents.
I am not too involved as we are renting, and moving after next year, but it does bother me too! I can't imagine how upset I would be if I was one of the families who paid over a million dollars to buy a home here, and someone with the same square footage in another part of town is sending their kid while paying a much smaller mortgage! I know some districts have open boundaries and you can send your child anywhere in the county, but that's not how it is here (at least not how it's supposed to be).
The other grades (2,3,4,5) this year all had under 20 kids, but the upcoming 2nd, and 1st grades are huge. The teachers will have close to 30 students.
At the end of the day I would rather have my daughter at this school in a huge class than the other schools in a smaller class, but it's still frustrating!

 

[jrmasm]

At a certain point, though, we have to step up as a society and say that the schools do, in fact, need more money. Illinois has a terrible record on school funding. It is one of the worst states in the nation for providing funds for schools. Because of the state budget crisis, the schools are getting left holding the bag.

I agree. But in reality funding initiatives are voted down by the tax payers and then they complain when things are cut. You simply can't have it both ways.

 

[nuttylawprofessor]

I agree. But in reality funding initiatives are voted down by the tax payers and then they complain when things are cut. You simply can't have it both ways.

We don't vote on school funding in Chicago. I don't think Cook County has ever found a tax that it didn't like. Our problem is that the money is going everywhere EXCEPT to the schools and the most valuable social services.

 

[daughtersrus]

At a certain point, though, we have to step up as a society and say that the schools do, in fact, need more money. Illinois has a terrible record on school funding. It is one of the worst states in the nation for providing funds for schools. Because of the state budget crisis, the schools are getting left holding the bag.

I don't want to have the thread closed because of politics but I have to say that I just heard on WGN Radio that Indian Prairie School District 204 (Naperville/Aurora/Bolingbrook) is considering not sending the state the money that they have collected in income tax from their employees because the state owes them so much money.

 

[nuttylawprofessor]

I don't want to have the thread closed because of politics but I have to say that I just heard on WGN Radio that Indian Prairie School District 204 (Naperville/Aurora/Bolingbrook) is considering not sending the state the money that they have collected in income tax from their employees because the state owes them so much money.

I don't think we're anywhere near talking about politics, so I think we're safe.

At our parent meeting, my spouse suggested we hold back two week's worth of state taxes (sales, use, etc.) from businesses in the neighborhood. It would cover our neighborhood school's budget for years. We would have an unparalleled endowment.

 

[daughtersrus]

I agree. But in reality funding initiatives are voted down by the tax payers and then they complain when things are cut. You simply can't have it both ways.

That's not the problem in IL. Our state has a huge budget problem as a whole and schools are not getting the money owed to them from the state. I recently read that the state owes $1.4 Billion to districts in our state.

 

[JVL1018]

Same here! (about the people freaking out at around 26 kids)
When my daughter was in Kindergarten the class size's started out at around 28, but the school quickly added a third teacher and the class sizes settled out closer to 16. Well when that same group of kids moved to 1st grade they didn't add another teacher, so the two classes have around 28 kids. Parents freaked out! Thankfully most parents volunteered, so the teacher had a volunteer almost every day along with a college student who came three times a week.
Next year they are expecting more incoming students, but not adding another teacher. I know several parents who have organized meetings to discuss solutions. The big problem here is that up to 40% of the student body (at least according to the parent running the meeting) is coming from out of area. I guess the principle has tried to crack down on this, but parents go over her head to the school board and get permission for their kids to attend.
It's probably no coincidence that the same parents are usually also very active with the school and make large donations. I don't think it would upset me if they were bringing underprivileged kids here from other neighborhoods (they do that in another wealthy part of town), but that's not the case. These are for the most part wealthy families who just want their kids to go to a good school with out paying for expensive private schools.
I know some of the parents whose kids come from out of bounds, and they are wonderful families, but I also understand why people in this neighborhood are upset. They paid a lot to live here.
I know I was a little ticked when after searching for a house we could afford in this neighborhood we ended up with something much smaller than we would normally rent, and my old neighbor who was looking at the same time (we were both moving out of military housing) ended up on the other side of town in a house twice as big for around the same price, but their daughters still go to our neighborhood school.

We had a big problem here with kids from out of town coming. They went through student by student, years ago, and they had to bring in proof that they lived here-and they booted out about 100 kids from the town schools. It still happens, but it's rare and it gets caught pretty quickly. You are welcome to send your child to school here, but you have to pay tuition equal to what it costs to educate a child in town, and that is close to $10,000. No one does that.
Right now my son in 2nd grade has 15 kids, my daughter in 4th has 21.
They are looking to drop a 3rd grade teacher next year so that each class will have about 25 kids. I just this minute sent off an email to the superintendant strongly asking him to reconsider, as I think 25 3rd graders is too much. The attention they get when there are 15 kids in a class is excellent and I'd like to keep it under 20 for their 3rd grade year.

 

[emma'smom]

Some thoughts:

(1) Research shows (and I can't point to it right now since it was something a professor told us in graduate school---so take it as you will) that teachers don't actually change their teaching methodology when class-sizes are reduced until there are 12 students in the class. So a class or 20 vs. 28 would basically be receiving the same teaching methodology.

This isn't a comment on classroom management or ability to differentiate by ability level, but innovative, dynamic teaching methodology.

(2) In NYC, I usually had about 25 kids in my 2nd grade class...but had up to 31 at some points. However, I did that voluntarily because I wanted to keep some of the stronger students in exchange for reducing my class size but giving more more "management" challenges. 31 easy-going students is far better than 20 challenging students.

(3) They are increasing our class size here in Ohio from 20 to 28 because the levy failed. Now folks are upset, but this could have been prevented if folks would have just voted for the levy. The district has cut and stripped all possible budget fat-- I truly believe that. Now we're into cutting the meat of the programs! It's sad!

 

[FlightlessDuck]

How many students in a class is reasonable?

23. 35 is way too many for a teacher to be able to control the environment and give the type of attention each student needs.

 

[MM27]

Some thoughts:

(1) Research shows (and I can't point to it right now since it was something a professor told us in graduate school---so take it as you will) that teachers don't actually change their teaching methodology when class-sizes are reduced until there are 12 students in the class. So a class or 20 vs. 28 would basically be receiving the same teaching methodology.

You might not change the WAY you teach, but I can guarantee you that the kids in the smaller class are getting more individualized attention. The year I had my biggest class (27) it was so hard to meet with all the kids for writer's workshop or pulling them for groups in math and reading. It's not fair to the students when they are crammed into a classroom with more and more students.

Same here! (about the people freaking out at around 26 kids)
When my daughter was in Kindergarten the class size's started out at around 28, but the school quickly added a third teacher and the class sizes settled out closer to 16. Well when that same group of kids moved to 1st grade they didn't add another teacher, so the two classes have around 28 kids. Parents freaked out! Thankfully most parents volunteered, so the teacher had a volunteer almost every day along with a college student who came three times a week.
Next year they are expecting more incoming students, but not adding another teacher. I know several parents who have organized meetings to discuss solutions. The big problem here is that up to 40% of the student body (at least according to the parent running the meeting) is coming from out of area. I guess the principle has tried to crack down on this, but parents go over her head to the school board and get permission for their kids to attend.
It's probably no coincidence that the same parents are usually also very active with the school and make large donations. I don't think it would upset me if they were bringing underprivileged kids here from other neighborhoods (they do that in another wealthy part of town), but that's not the case. These are for the most part wealthy families who just want their kids to go to a good school with out paying for expensive private schools.
I know some of the parents whose kids come from out of bounds, and they are wonderful families, but I also understand why people in this neighborhood are upset. They paid a lot to live here.
I know I was a little ticked when after searching for a house we could afford in this neighborhood we ended up with something much smaller than we would normally rent, and my old neighbor who was looking at the same time (we were both moving out of military housing) ended up on the other side of town in a house twice as big for around the same price, but their daughters still go to our neighborhood school.

A big part of the Race to the Top incentive program is school choice. If kids in a neighboring town go to a school that is failing, they will have the right to enroll in a non failing school, which could be out of district.