HOAs Strike Again

[soccerdad72]

NBC Nightly News did a story on this at the beginning of the pandemic. In some areas working out of your house is a violation of either HOA rules or CC& Rs. Anything you are doing where you are being compensated for work done in your home. This is different from say having a business in your home where clients/customers actually come to your home to conduct business. That type thing is usually prohibited by City and County Zoning rules in residential areas.
Former neighbor on my east side ran an accounting business from his home and had 12 phone lines installed. When he sold the house the home inspector spotted that, and the buyer made them remove them because if was an indication that the C.R.& R's had been violated. Nit picking for sure, the on paper, a violation.
Of course the guy across the street made violin and cello bows in his back bedroom that he converted into a full work shop. And he had clients stopping by. But that might only been 4 or 5 people a year.

Out of curiosity, I went and looked up our HOA By Laws. It has a section regarding running a business out of one's home, but it specifically allows home offices (with some stipulations):

Section 8.6 – Commercial or Professional Uses Except as expressly permitted in this Declaration, or by Rules adopted in accordance with this Declaration, no industry, business, trade or full-time occupation or profession of any kind, commercial, educational, or otherwise, designated for profit, altruism, exploration or otherwise, shall be conducted, maintained or permitted on any part of the Property; provided, however, an Occupant may use a portion of his or her Living Unit for his office or studio as permitted by City zoning requirements, so long as the activities therein shall not interfere with the quiet enjoyment or comfort of any other Occupant and that such use does not result in the Living Unit becoming principally an office, school or studio as distinct from a Living Unit.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

NBC Nightly News did a story on this at the beginning of the pandemic. In some areas working out of your house is a violation of either HOA rules or CC& Rs. Anything you are doing where you are being compensated for work done in your home. This is different from say having a business in your home where clients/customers actually come to your home to conduct business. That type thing is usually prohibited by City and County Zoning rules in residential areas.
Former neighbor on my east side ran an accounting business from his home and had 12 phone lines installed. When he sold the house the home inspector spotted that, and the buyer made them remove them because if was an indication that the C.R.& R's had been violated. Nit picking for sure, the on paper, a violation.
Of course the guy across the street made violin and cello bows in his back bedroom that he converted into a full work shop. And he had clients stopping by. But that might only been 4 or 5 people a year.

Can you find me that story, I'd like to read the specifics into it.

Like I said it's usually a home business you're running that's an issue for the HOA, much like it is for the city (needing proper permitting and licensing if required) and certainly impacts your homeowner's insurance.

 

[kdonnel]

Shouldn't the board members names BE public to start with? At least in the neighborhood?

Of course they are public to the neighborhood. I don't understand the OP saying somehow their names got out.

If people bothered to attend any of the HOA meetings they would know the board members.

I attend the annual meeting, at most there are 10% of the homes represented. Normally much less than that. Usually the number is around 6%.

When I had a problem with a tree managed by the HOA I looked up how to get on the monthly meeting agenda. In our case you just show up for the first part of the monthly HOA meeting. I was the first homeowner to show up to a monthly meeting in over a year. They were happy to see me and talk with me.

They tried their best to get me to participate in the HOA. They are always way short in participation but never short in complaints. We have about 400 homes and perhaps 1% of the owners are willing to step up and work on the board. I am not one of those 1% so I keep my mouth shut and do what they decide.

The board heard my complaint and I left. A few days later I was contacted by the management company that everyone agreed the tree was an issue and would be taken care of. A few weeks later the tree was removed and grass planted it its place.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Of course they are public to the neighborhood. I don't understand the OP saying somehow their names got out.

If people bothered to attend any of the HOA meetings they would know the board members.

We have a directory on our eNeighbors site. Anyone who joined inputs their contact information so it can be found and the Board of Directors, the various Committees as well as the Property Manager is all listed for everyone to see. The annual dues have the contact information for the Property Manager. The various Committees have members that post on eNeighbors plus our FB page as well as the Property Manager also posts on eNeighbors heck I even got a text when the pool had to be closed due to glass in it. None of this information is hidden and if there's FB rants on people's own social media pages that's on them but the knowledge of who they aren't isn't hidden.

 

[tvguy]

Can you find me that story, I'd like to read the specifics into it.

Like I said it's usually a home business you're running that's an issue for the HOA, much like it is for the city (needing proper permitting and licensing if required) and certainly impacts your homeowner's insurance.

I can't. My wife retired from the local NBC station last year so I no longer have access to their archives.

 

[tvguy]

Out of curiosity, I went and looked up our HOA By Laws. It has a section regarding running a business out of one's home, but it specifically allows home offices (with some stipulations):

When were your HOA by laws filed? I bet in the last 20 years.

 

[soccerdad72]

When were your HOA by laws filed? I bet in the last 20 years.

We’ve been in our house for 18 years now. We were Phase 2 or 3 of the development, so the neighborhood is about 20 years old.

 

[tvguy]

We’ve been in our house for 18 years now. We were Phase 2 or 3 of the development, so the neighborhood is about 20 years old.

So it is new enough for developers to have considered working at home when they drafted the rules.

 

[Lilsia]

I lived in an HOA where they would send you a threat letter if they found one weed in your grass or there happened to be pollen on your mailbox. Two old women would walk down the street with clipboards twice a week and write things down that they didn't like. Never again, screw HOA's.

We are extremely lucky in ours. The only thing that they concern themselves with is upkeeping the common spaces and the small park. In fact, no one even wants the job of being on the board and there are several openings. A couple of people finally just said that they would do it just so what needed to be done, got done. Everyone pretty much minds their own business and takes care of their own property. But I know that this is rare. We live in a city where the majority of it does not have an HOA but the newer neighborhoods set them up so there is no avoiding them if you want a new home. But again, most people really don't agree with them here and so there are not too many issues.

 

[SandyinMonterey]

Shouldn't the board members names BE public to start with? At least in the neighborhood?

Yes. But the names that were put out at the time were the names of a few board members that our HOA manager couldn't work with and the reason she was leaving. That former HOA manager was here a long time and very well liked and this caused a frenzy.

 

[mrodgers]

Read the thread. There are posts from people who have been HELPED by HOAs.

Our HOA takes care of the entrance. It installed street lights. It arranges food trucks every Friday for folks to enjoy. It keeps people from clogging streets with parked vehicles.

Yup, there's nothing good about HOAs.

Grew up in a neighborhood, mom still lives there. No HOA. Township takes care of the entrances and streets with repairs and winter maintenance. Township installed streetlights. I don't want food trucks around. No one clogs the streets with parked vehicles. All done without someone else telling my mother what she can or can not do on her own property except for township rules of no chickens, fence around the pool, and she doesn't have a choice in garbage collection companies or a choice to opt out if she doesn't need it.

 

[sam_gordon]

Grew up in a neighborhood, mom still lives there. No HOA. Township takes care of the entrances and streets with repairs and winter maintenance. Township installed streetlights. I don't want food trucks around. No one clogs the streets with parked vehicles. All done without someone else telling my mother what she can or can not do on her own property except for township rules of no chickens, fence around the pool, and she doesn't have a choice in garbage collection companies or a choice to opt out if she doesn't need it.

So because your mom's neighborhood gets taken care by the township and people didn't clog the streets means all the neighborhoods work the same? Again, read the thread. Read about multiple people who HAVE been helped by HOAs. I'm not saying they're all good. But saying they are all bad is incorrect.

 

[HopperFan]

Out of curiosity, I went and looked up our HOA By Laws. It has a section regarding running a business out of one's home, but it specifically allows home offices (with some stipulations):

When were your HOA by laws filed? I bet in the last 20 years.

So it is new enough for developers to have considered working at home when they drafted the rules.

Our HOA is about 32 years old and the By Laws are generic that I have found in even older Florida neighborhoods.

We are absolutely allowed to work from home and honestly unless you have people coming in and out how would anyone even know. There have been cottage industries in homes forever so that should always come in to play.

What we can not do per HOA by laws is run a business with employees. We had one neighbor with a full office in the basement and one employee. They had no children and were very quiet. We made sure the employee parked in the driveway and there was no knowing that he was anything more than a "nanny or housekeeper" which is allowed.

NOW we had a single guy buy a house and build out his whole basement with side door for his TEN employees. His office was upstairs. They parked all over the street and he was by entrance so a danger factor. I was on board and yes we began the processes to resolve it. At the time our town did not exist so we were on our own with minimal county help. He thought he'd be cute and had them all park at the CVS down the road and carpooled them in. Nope. He was forced to go rent an office. This is where an HOA was critical in maintaining a residential zoning. I would say at this point most the neighbors work from home but you would never know it.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Our HOA is about 32 years old and the By Laws are generic that I have found in even older Florida neighborhoods.

We are absolutely allowed to work from home and honestly unless you have people coming in and out how would anyone even know. There have been cottage industries in homes forever so that should always come in to play.

What we can not do per HOA by laws is run a business with employees. We had one neighbor with a full office in the basement and one employee. They had no children and were very quiet. We made sure the employee parked in the driveway and there was no knowing that he was anything more than a "nanny or housekeeper" which is allowed.

NOW we had a single guy buy a house and build out his whole basement with side door for his TEN employees. His office was upstairs. They parked all over the street and he was by entrance so a danger factor. I was on board and yes we began the processes to resolve it. At the time our town did not exist so we were on our own with minimal county help. He thought he'd be cute and had them all park at the CVS down the road and carpooled them in. Nope. He was forced to go rent an office. This is where an HOA was critical in maintaining a residential zoning. I would say at this point most the neighbors work from home but you would never know it.

I agree with most of your comments but did want to say your examples are kinda what tick people off about HOAs which is inconsistent adherence to the covenants.

Your HOA doesn't allow employees, you covered up your neighbor that did have 1. I don't know if you were on the Board then but that would be favoritism and actively allowing someone to break the rules while on the Board should have had you booted off it. Only when it was messing with parking spaces/cluttering up the road did you see it an issue with someone else doing it.

 

[PollyannaMom]

I agree with most of your comments but did want to say your examples are kinda what tick people off about HOAs which is inconsistent adherence to the covenants.

Your HOA doesn't allow employees, you covered up your neighbor that did have 1. I don't know if you were on the Board then but that would be favoritism and actively allowing someone to break the rules while on the Board should have had you booted off it. Only when it was messing with parking spaces/cluttering up the road did you see it an issue with someone else doing it.

I kind of see that as evaluating the specific situation and putting the spirit of the rule ahead of the wording. Since the rule was in place to avoid cars cluttering up the streets, that's the problem it was invoked to correct.

 

[MillauFr]

No one clogs the streets with parked vehicles.

If you don't have parked cars lining the streets how do you keep speeds down? Are the streets very narrow?

 

[HopperFan]

I agree with most of your comments but did want to say your examples are kinda what tick people off about HOAs which is inconsistent adherence to the covenants.

Your HOA doesn't allow employees, you covered up your neighbor that did have 1. I don't know if you were on the Board then but that would be favoritism and actively allowing someone to break the rules while on the Board should have had you booted off it. Only when it was messing with parking spaces/cluttering up the road did you see it an issue with someone else doing it.

Well first there is a huge difference between one person coming to your house and parking in your driveway like family for a part of the day and 10 cars parking all over the roadway, coming and going mid day for breaks etc. He was running a full blown business out of his house. The HOA actually could have called the County to come out and fine him daily for violating zoning but they gave him the chance to move first.

No parking is allowed on the street other than when you have company a few hours, but it was more than that. He violated HOA rules, he violated zoning rules, he violated parking rules and the by laws actually had other violations. 10 cars daily for 8 hours was not acceptable. There is no legal parking in the area they were in anyway due to the entrance way. And when he moved offsite he was illegally parking them in a business that didn't want them either. There was also the issue that the entrance to the basement was feet from a school bus stop. Parents were uncomfortable letting their kids go to the bus stop alone in the morning when all these cars & men were arriving who did not live in the neighborhood.

EVERY single situation should always be evaluated for it's impact to the neighborhood and/or ask if has become a unpleasant situation impacting others. The one employee was not covered up. Everyone knew, no one had any complaints to make. The bigger business was a complaint by many, especially those who lived by him.

Actually what you are proposing is exactly what everyone hates about HOA. A rule is there and some board members see black and white, and take things to extremes. This was a rule that went beyond just our rules, he had violated zoning rules.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Well first there is a huge difference between one person coming to your house and parking in your driveway like family for a part of the day and 10 cars parking all over the roadway, coming and going mid day for breaks etc. He was running a full blown business out of his house. The HOA actually could have called the County to come out and fine him daily for violating zoning but they gave him the chance to move first.

No parking is allowed on the street other than when you have company a few hours, but it was more than that. He violated HOA rules, he violated zoning rules, he violated parking rules and the by laws actually had other violations. 10 cars daily for 8 hours was not acceptable. There is no legal parking in the area they were in anyway due to the entrance way. And when he moved offsite he was illegally parking them in a business that didn't want them either. There was also the issue that the entrance to the basement was feet from a school bus stop. Parents were uncomfortable letting their kids go to the bus stop alone in the morning when all these cars & men were arriving who did not live in the neighborhood.

EVERY single situation should always be evaluated for it's impact to the neighborhood and/or ask if has become a unpleasant situation impacting others. The one employee was not covered up. Everyone knew, no one had any complaints to make. The bigger business was a complaint by many, especially those who lived by him.

Actually what you are proposing is exactly what everyone hates about HOA. A rule is there and some board members see black and white, and take things to extremes. This was a rule that went beyond just our rules, he had violated zoning rules.

I am totally aware of 1 vs 10, I didn't think I needed to put that in my comment as it's pretty obvious, but I suppose looks like I did need to put that in there. But unless the HOA rules allowed for 1 employee but not more than that then your neighbor and as a byproduct you, were in violation of the rules. All I'm saying is that's a reason why people get peeved about HOAs when someone gets away with it but someone else didn't. Most HOAs have a "until it's  really an issue let it slide" but that doesn't mean to those not in favor of HOAs won't see that as an inherent problem to them.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I kind of see that as evaluating the specific situation and putting the spirit of the rule ahead of the wording. Since the rule was in place to avoid cars cluttering up the streets, that's the problem it was invoked to correct.

Please see my response above

"spirit of the rule" is incongruent with HOA covenants. At least for ours we have to file it with the city and it takes an attorney to adjust the wording or add amendments and insurance company to sign off on changes if it affects what the policy covers for. And spirit of something is not going to be likely to stand up in court or at least could be challenged should a homeowner seek legal action due to actions taken against them if another such incident showed something else.

 

[mrodgers]

If you don't have parked cars lining the streets how do you keep speeds down? Are the streets very narrow?

I manufacture car parts, I am not a police officer so I do not police society. I have no way of keeping speeds down. It's just a normal neighborhood with normal size roads.