Help with school note/advice

[luvsJack]

You'd have probably enjoyed our district's Outdoor Education programs. Or the Work-Study programs, which places kids in the workforce and allows them to earn class credits there, along with practical work experience often in very interesting fields (you could have been surveying those creek banks!).

Personally, I've never yet met anyone who hated something without having a reason for hating it. I might not think it's a good reason, but they've always got a reason. I also haven't yet met a parent who doesn't care about their kid. They might express that caring badly, and they might have other stuff going on in their lives that's interfering with their ability to parent, but - so far - they all care. Even the abusive ones. So, if I was crafting policy, I'd craft it with them in mind, because while I'm sure there are uncaring, neglectful parents out there somewhere, I also know that exceptional cases make for bad law.

All kids are important, whether they have decent parents are not. Laws aren't made for those that abide by them anyway. You are lucky that you haven't met any parents that don't care. I have.

And unless that program you mention included all my friends and no work, no, it wouldn't have made a difference. And now, there is no way I would want that kind of work. But it sounds great for some kids.

 

[cabanafrau]

You'd have probably enjoyed our district's Outdoor Education programs. Or the Work-Study programs, which places kids in the workforce and allows them to earn class credits there, along with practical work experience often in very interesting fields (you could have been surveying those creek banks!).

Personally, I've never yet met anyone who hated something without having a reason for hating it. I might not think it's a good reason, but they've always got a reason. I also haven't yet met a parent who doesn't care about their kid. They might express that caring badly, and they might have other stuff going on in their lives that's interfering with their ability to parent, but - so far - they all care. Even the abusive ones. So, if I was crafting policy, I'd craft it with them in mind, because while I'm sure there are uncaring, neglectful parents out there somewhere, I also know that exceptional cases make for bad law.

I've met literally hundreds, face to face, interacting with many of them for up to three years at a time. Not sure you can base what is/is not an exception on your limited experience -- no matter how much you may feel you've read on a subject to bolster your knowledge.

 

[Magpie]

I've met literally hundreds, face to face, interacting with many of them for up to three years at a time. Not sure you can base what is/is not an exception on your limited experience -- no matter how much you may feel you've read on a subject to bolster your knowledge.

You've dealt with hundreds of parents who don't care about their kids?

I'm very sorry. I don't know where you live, but it must be rough.

 

[cabanafrau]

You've dealt with hundreds of parents who don't care about their kids?

I'm very sorry. I don't know where you live, but it must be rough.

Yes, I work in the court system here. For several years I dealt very extensively with abuse and neglect cases as they made their way through the reunification process, frequently leading to termination of parental rights. Quite often they are more about abject neglect than most people suspect, versus the popular conception of child abuse being the leading culprit of children being removed from their homes. It's incredible the damage neglect inflicts.

I live in America. Strange, you seem so versed in our culture, so ready to speak for how our laws should be constructed, yet your experience doesn't seem to encompass many of the very real issues that need to be addressed. I think maybe it's a bit insulting to suggest that someone from another country has a full picture from some anecdotal evidence and what's covered in the media to suggest how we should do things here.

 

[Magpie]

Yes, I work in the court system here. For several years I dealt very extensively with abuse and neglect cases as they made their way through the reunification process, frequently leading to termination of parental rights. Quite often they are more about abject neglect than most people suspect, versus the popular conception of child abuse being the leading culprit of children being removed from their homes. It's incredible the damage neglect inflicts.

I live in America. Strange, you seem so versed in our culture, so ready to speak for how our laws should be constructed, yet your experience doesn't seem to encompass many of the very real issues that need to be addressed. I think maybe it's a bit insulting to suggest that someone from another country has a full picture from some anecdotal evidence and what's covered in the media to suggest how we should do things here.

You do valuable, critical work. And - yes, it's obvious you work in a very different culture and environment than what we deal with here. And that you have to deal with systemic issues that we clearly don't. One of my close friends is a family law lawyer, and a lot of what I've been saying is largely based on her perceptions from years of working in our court system.

According to her, parents here DO care about their kids. Neglect often occurs not due to malicious disregard, but because the parent is overwhelmed or incapacitated in some way (drugs, alcohol, a personal history of abuse, mental health issues, all of the above).

By the way, I'd love to hear your take on this story: http://www.bellinghamherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article105254061.html The mother of the young man is apparently herself a teacher in the district, though she doesn't make enough to keep him off the free lunch program. I don't know if I'd be brave enough to say no to the diversion program, even if I knew my child was innocent of the charges. The stakes are SO high!

 

[Nancyg56]

You've dealt with hundreds of parents who don't care about their kids?

I'm very sorry. I don't know where you live, but it must be rough.

The problem I have with all of your conjectures is that they seem to be based on somewhat limited interactions with actual American students and parents throughout an entire school system. I worked in the administrative offices of a school system that was graced with a diversity that rivaled large cities. All disciplinary hearing were held in our building before the Board of Education, as well as the administration. Our offices also housed the SPED department, which handled all of the special needs in town, including those children whose families had DCF involvement. Our nutritional department was also within our building, and we were attached to an elementary school.
Over the years that I worked there I observed and dealt with parents who would curl your hair. We were not an inner city, a large city, or an impoverished city. We were a medium sized town. Unless you are lodged within a system you honestly have no idea what is transpiring sometimes right under your nose. It is insulting to make the assumption that because someone has experience with many parents who are not responsive to their children's needs that person lives in a rough area. These things happen in the best of homes, towns and school systems. Rose colored lenses may only shade what is occurring in your town that you simply are not aware of.

 

[Magpie]

The problem I have with all of your conjectures is that they seem to be based on somewhat limited interactions with actual American students and parents throughout an entire school system. I worked in the administrative offices of a school system that was graced with a diversity that rivaled large cities. All disciplinary hearing were held in our building before the Board of Education, as well as the administration. Our offices also housed the SPED department, which handled all of the special needs in town, including those children whose families had DCF involvement. Our nutritional department was also within our building, and we were attached to an elementary school.
Over the years that I worked there I observed and dealt with parents who would curl your hair. We were not an inner city, a large city, or an impoverished city. We were a medium sized town. Unless you are lodged within a system you honestly have no idea what is transpiring sometimes right under your nose. It is insulting to make the assumption that because someone has experience with many parents who are not responsive to their children's needs that person lives in a rough area. These things happen in the best of homes, towns and school systems. Rose colored lenses may only shade what is occurring in your town that you simply are not aware of.

As I said above, I'm basing my conjecture on people I've known in the system (including wards of the Children's Aid Society, and parents who've been in contact with CAS) and on people who work within the system (including a family law lawyer).

I really am getting the impression this conversation is highlighting some fundamental cultural differences, which you're quite right - are mostly invisible when you're simply visiting.

My town is not perfect, and it's not a paradise. But, it's clearly very different from your town.

 

[EMom]

It's a wonder everyone from South America to the US isn't flooding across the border into the paradise that is Canada.

Yes, I work in the court system here. For several years I dealt very extensively with abuse and neglect cases as they made their way through the reunification process, frequently leading to termination of parental rights. Quite often they are more about abject neglect than most people suspect, versus the popular conception of child abuse being the leading culprit of children being removed from their homes. It's incredible the damage neglect inflicts.

I live in America. Strange, you seem so versed in our culture, so ready to speak for how our laws should be constructed, yet your experience doesn't seem to encompass many of the very real issues that need to be addressed. I think maybe it's a bit insulting to suggest that someone from another country has a full picture from some anecdotal evidence and what's covered in the media to suggest how we should do things here.

As hard as it may be for some to grasp, Canada also has plenty of uncaring, neglectful, and even abusive parents. Despite the predictable denials, our neighbor to the north isn't some Shangri-La where everything is rainbow colored and unicorns routinely blow glitter pixie dust out of their orifices. No one is buying that story.

 

[SirDuff]

As hard as it may be for some to grasp, Canada also has plenty of uncaring, neglectful, and even abusive parents. Despite the predictable denials, our neighbor to the north isn't some Shangri-La where everything is rainbow colored and unicorns routinely blow glitter pixie dust out of their orifices. No one is buying that story.

Including those of us who live here.

 

[Magpie]

It's a wonder everyone from South America to the US isn't flooding across the border into the paradise that is Canada.

Well, it's awfully cold. And it's not much fun if you're Native (speaking of problems with systemic racism!). It's a much smaller country, which means there's fewer specialists in every field. Oh, and access to medical care/prenatal care, fresh fruit, etc, can be hard to come by if you're in the North. Food prices are higher in many places. Hydro rates in rural areas have been jacked way, way up. And you probably won't earn as much money. I think that's a BIG issue for a lot of people.

But on the plus side, getting a University education costs a lot less. Maternal mortality is a LOT better (according to a NYT article I read this morning, out of the thirty-one member nations of the OECD, the US is second only to Mexico when it comes to how many women die in childbirth). And...

If The United States were your home instead of Canada you would...

be 5.9 times more likely to be in prison

be 2.7 times more likely to be murdered

make 22.51% more money

spend 54.95% more money on health care

experience 40.19% more of a class divide

have 4.59% less free time

be 2.82% more likely to be unemployed

die 2.11 years sooner

be 31% more likely to die in infancy

use 15.09% less electricity

be 2 times more likely to have HIV/AIDS

consume 8.8% less oil

have 30.42% more babies

Source: http://www.ifitweremyhome.com/

Of course, there are miserable people and abusive families in every country, even the very nicest ones. Denmark is supposed to be this year's "Happiest Country on Earth", but I'm sure even they have their share of abused children.

(Edited to add: I was grouching at the TV this morning, because the morning news' guest speaker called Canada the "greatest nation on earth", which is utter nonsense.)

 

[EMom]

Bless your heart.

 

[cabanafrau]

You've dealt with hundreds of parents who don't care about their kids?

I'm very sorry. I don't know where you live, but it must be rough.

Above you express sorrow and worry because I must live in a "rough" area.

You do valuable, critical work. And - yes, it's obvious you work in a very different culture and environment than what we deal with here. And that you have to deal with systemic issues that we clearly don't. One of my close friends is a family law lawyer, and a lot of what I've been saying is largely based on her perceptions from years of working in our court system.

According to her, parents here DO care about their kids. Neglect often occurs not due to malicious disregard, but because the parent is overwhelmed or incapacitated in some way (drugs, alcohol, a personal history of abuse, mental health issues, all of the above).

By the way, I'd love to hear your take on this story: http://www.bellinghamherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article105254061.html The mother of the young man is apparently herself a teacher in the district, though she doesn't make enough to keep him off the free lunch program. I don't know if I'd be brave enough to say no to the diversion program, even if I knew my child was innocent of the charges. The stakes are SO high!

You follow that up with what you've learned anecdotally from a friend who works in family law in your area, dealing with cases of parental neglect. Based on what you then go on to say about the causes behind the parental neglect in your area I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest you live in a similarly rough environ to my own and not in some Lake Wobegon atmosphere as so many of the Canadian posters have been attempting to suggest lately.

Do some of the addicted or mentally ill parents love their children yet neglect them? Yes. For many they are sadly unable to use that love to help them work at treatment at all so they can resume caring for their children properly. If they will not even work at treatment there is no hope of sending kids home to that situation. Kids cannot sit in a state of suspended animation indefinitely in the hopes their parent will pull it together.

 

[cabanafrau]

Well, it's awfully cold. And it's not much fun if you're Native (speaking of problems with systemic racism!). It's a much smaller country, which means there's fewer specialists in every field. Oh, and access to medical care/prenatal care, fresh fruit, etc, can be hard to come by if you're in the North. Food prices are higher in many places. Hydro rates in rural areas have been jacked way, way up. And you probably won't earn as much money. I think that's a BIG issue for a lot of people.

But on the plus side, getting a University education costs a lot less. Maternal mortality is a LOT better (according to a NYT article I read this morning, out of the thirty-one member nations of the OECD, the US is second only to Mexico when it comes to how many women die in childbirth). And...

If The United States were your home instead of Canada you would...

be 5.9 times more likely to be in prison

be 2.7 times more likely to be murdered

make 22.51% more money

spend 54.95% more money on health care

experience 40.19% more of a class divide

have 4.59% less free time

be 2.82% more likely to be unemployed

die 2.11 years sooner

be 31% more likely to die in infancy

use 15.09% less electricity

be 2 times more likely to have HIV/AIDS

consume 8.8% less oil

have 30.42% more babies

Source: http://www.ifitweremyhome.com/

Of course, there are miserable people and abusive families in every country, even the very nicest ones. Denmark is supposed to be this year's "Happiest Country on Earth", but I'm sure even they have their share of abused children.

(Edited to add: I was grouching at the TV this morning, because the morning news' guest speaker called Canada the "greatest nation on earth", which is utter nonsense.)

Curious so many Canadians choose to pursue degrees in the U.S. then. Even a short viewing of the Olympic coverage demonstrates how true that is.

Not to mention how many Canadians work here in the States, commuting back and forth daily, or seeking medical care here even though the insurance coverage there is so superior.

 

[Magpie]

Above you express sorrow and worry because I must live in a "rough" area.



You follow that up with what you've learned anecdotally from a friend who works in family law in your area, dealing with cases of parental neglect. Based on what you then go on to say about the causes behind the parental neglect in your area I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest you live in a similarly rough environ to my own and not in some Lake Wobegon atmosphere as so many of the Canadian posters have been attempting to suggest lately.

Do some of the addicted or mentally ill parents love their children yet neglect them? Yes. For many they are sadly unable to use that love to help them work at treatment at all so they can resume caring for their children properly. If they will not even work at treatment there is no hope of sending kids home to that situation. Kids cannot sit in a state of suspended animation indefinitely in the hopes their parent will pull it together.

I'm talking about your statement that you've dealt with "hundreds" of parents who don't care about their kids. You make it sound almost routine. Unless you define "care" differently, I think you must live in a much worse environment than we do. Most parents here care. Does that mean they're capable? Not necessarily, but it gives social workers a place to start.

And no - I would never argue that kids should wait forever for their parents to pull it together. Obviously, though the system tries very hard not to get to that point - termination of parental rights is sometimes the best option for the child.

By the way, I'm not in any way saying that we don't have our own issues. Back in the 80's, we got very lazy about vetting foster care parents, which resulted in some children being abused while in care. Some of the resulting lawsuits are still working their way through the system.

(Edit: typo)

 

[Poohforyou]

Magpie, I'm sorry but parents who care about their kids don't neglect them.

Parent who care about their kids aren't doing drugs and drinking excessively.

Parents who care about their kids are working as hard as they have to in order to keep a roof over their kids heads, food in their bellies, clothes on their backs and the security that the kids are lover and protected.

Sadly, every country in the world (including Canada) have parents who don't care about their children.

 

[Magpie]

Curious so many Canadians choose to pursue degrees in the U.S. then. Even a short viewing of the Olympic coverage demonstrates how true that is.

Not to mention how many Canadians work here in the States, commuting back and forth daily, or seeking medical care here even though the insurance coverage there is so superior.

Because Canada is a much, much smaller country. We have 35 million people. You have 318 million people!

And correspondingly many more universities to choose from.

Yes, you're right, our medical insurance system IS definitely superior. When my teenage son cut the tip of his thumb off, my only out-of-pocket expense was the cab ride over to the Emergency room to get it sewn back on. Plus, prescription painkillers from the pharmacy (which was under 20 dollars, as I recall). We were in and out in less than an hour. It's amazing how fast you get seen when you're spurting blood everywhere! Also, he could bring his prescription painkillers to school in his lunchbox and take them when needed - no zero-tolerance drug policies here.

Which isn't to say I don't think we should have a prescription drug policy like the UK has, where almost all drugs are covered. Canada's medical insurance system is good, but it should definitely be even better!

And, the fact remains that if I need to see a specialist for some obscure disease, I'm much more likely to find that person in the States. (See above - population!) If I'm very lucky - my provincial health insurance will pay to send me to him (but that's not guaranteed, and the uncertainty around "orphan diseases" is another major issue here).

 

[Magpie]

Sadly, every country in the world (including Canada) have parents who don't care about their children.

I agree completely!

 

[pixeemom]

So glad you're feeling better!

And yes, I had the same thought about sick days versus vacation days. My son returned to public school in Grade Five, after having been homeschooled for grades 1 through 4. Right away, he got sick with a series of colds. (One of the downsides to homeschooling - he hadn't been exposed to any of this stuff yet, so it was a horrible shock to his immune system.) And then he got REALLY sick. At the ripe old age of almost-ten, he had the worst case of croup you can imagine. He was home for two weeks (including one trip to the Emergency room on his tenth birthday to be nebulized), and then managed to make it through almost a full week of school... and then he fainted and had a little seizure one morning. Back to the Emergency room. Another week off school. Bit of a scare when they thought they detected an abnormality in his heart. They booked him into the Heart Clinic for testing the day before we were due to leave for our family trip to Florida.

By this point, we were thinking, "The heck with it! He's missed so much school already, one more week off won't make a difference. And if anyone deserves a Disney Vacation, it's this poor kid!"

His teachers were completely supportive, as was his doctor. And, to all our relief, his heart tests came back just fine.

So off to Disney World we went, where the boy quickly perked up and got his energy back. Unfortunately, on the second day of vacation, his big sister came down with croup... (Fortunately, she's made of sterner stuff, and shook it off in about 48 hours, no hospital trip needed.)

wow! so sorry you all had to go through that but in the end had a disney vacation.
thanks for your support

 

[Nancyg56]

Because Canada is a much, much smaller country. We have 35 million people. You have 318 million people!

And correspondingly many more universities to choose from.

Yes, you're right, our medical insurance system IS definitely superior. When my teenage son cut the tip of his thumb off, my only out-of-pocket expense was the cab ride over to the Emergency room to get it sewn back on. Plus, prescription painkillers from the pharmacy (which was under 20 dollars, as I recall). We were in and out in less than an hour. It's amazing how fast you get seen when you're spurting blood everywhere! Also, he could bring his prescription painkillers to school in his lunchbox and take them when needed - no zero-tolerance drug policies here.

Which isn't to say I don't think we should have a prescription drug policy like the UK has, where almost all drugs are covered. Canada's medical insurance system is good, but it should definitely be even better!

And, the fact remains that if I need to see a specialist for some obscure disease, I'm much more likely to find that person in the States. (See above - population!) If I'm very lucky - my provincial health insurance will pay to send me to him (but that's not guaranteed, and the uncertainty around "orphan diseases" is another major issue here).

One thing I have noticed lately is the cultural issues posters resort to when they backgrounds or experience differs from what those here is the States are sharing. From Airlines to uncaring parents to healthcare and education, it turns into "mine is better than yours", and I find that a bit offensive. Your statement that the way a poster phrased her statement about "hundreds" of parents suggested that she lived in a terrible environment, so much more "rough" than your own, is naïve. My sister is a respiratory therapist and she will often phrase things differently than I. My niece is a State Trooper. She definitely has a different experience that mine and yours, and the way she phrases things is different as well, ...and BTW...she deals with the border patrol and her assessment of your Candy Land description would differ greatly than yours. You see......she deals with an segment of "your" citizens who probably do not darken your door, buthtey exist, and the numbers she would flatly say she has observed or dealt with would sink your argument like a rock. It's all about experiences.

 

[Poohforyou]

I agree completely!

You might want to be consistent with what you believe. Earlier on this page you claimed neglectful parents in Canada care about their kids.

My point is the very nature of neglect is not caring.