Gays against gay marriage????????

[Thizz]

I don't mean to stir up a debate about gay marriage, but I've come across some disturbing evidence of gays against gay marriage. There is a group in and around my neigborhood of openly gay man and women who protest the gay community to stop pushing for gay marriage. they, apparently, believe in that whole sanctity of marriage schtik that politicians like to put out.

So, the question is, any people here against gay marriage.

 

[DVC~OKW~96]

I've had similar discussions. Some folks who are in same gendered partnerships don't want anything to do with a ceremony (or legal bonding) that has anything at all to do with heterosexual values.

I'm not certain that you are talking about the same type of objections, but I just wanted to let you know that I've run across some couples (and singles) who do not support gay marriage.

As a faintly related off topic comment, I was driving today (have to travel locally for my work quite often) channel surfing and kept hitting this same christian radio station. Every time my search feature picked it up there was a reporter talking about what a threat homosexual marriage was and how everyone had to rally to be certain it was not allowed. Every time. I was on the road today for over three hours. I just found that a little extreme.

OK. Back to topic. Sorry.

 

[mickeysaver]

I really want the legal protections that are automatically set in place when you are legally "married". I could care less about the religious ceremony aspect of being "married". I do wish that someone would get a clue and realize that the religious joining and the legal ceremony are two distinctly different things. If we could remove the religious side of the issue and focus on the legal side, there would be a much healthier and rational discussion of the issue. Maggie

 

[OrlandoMike]

Damn it! I want the wedding! I've put up with enough crap for the past 10 years from him! I love him to death, but it aint official till it happens in Vegas, by an Elvis impersonator, and an open bar tab!

I WANT EQUAL RIGHTS!

 

[wallyb]

Damn it! I want the wedding! I've put up with enough crap for the past 10 years from him! I love him to death, but it aint official till it happens in Vegas, by an Elvis impersonator, and an open bar tab!

I WANT EQUAL RIGHTS!

Wow! I want to come to this one. Will Charo be there?

 

[mickeyfan2]

I know heteros who live together but NEVER want to get married. They see it as a piece of paper only.

As it is now the paper gives you many rights that those without it are denied. I feel that all couples should be afforded that right. I too believe that the religious marriage and goverment paper are two very different things. The second is more important for our life here and to some the first is important in the their next life.

 

[OrlandoMike]

Wow! I want to come to this one. Will Charo be there?

Ah Dah! Ya! Maid of honor!

 

[RickinNYC]

I've no doubt that there are some gay folks who don't think we should have the right to marry. And I think they are as guilty as any straight person of absolute idiocy for wanting to deny anyone basic, equal, HUMAN rights for consenting adults. And you can throw in a HUGE amount of intense self hatred into the mix.

 

[wallyb]

And they are called:
Log Cabin Republicans.

Sorry - devil made me.

 

[TuckandStuiesMom]

you are bad. (but adorable)

 

[DVC~OKW~96]

Can't agree more with the need for separation of religion and civil in the context of marriage.

In Mexico, there is both; the religious ceremony, then the civil one. The religious one is not recognized without the civil one!

Here we endow the religious with the legal/civil powers.

It would be wonderful to have two complete factions; with or without. Then the many differing religious entities could marry (or refuse to marry) whom they please, while the civil ceremony remained open to all!

An Elvis impersonator? That's soooo yesterday!

 

[majortom]

And they are called:
Log Cabin Republicans.

Sorry - devil made me.

Sorry, you are wrong, and it this attitude that makes it much harder to push equal rights forward. In this letter, the Log Cabin Republicans support Gay marriage and oppose a constitutional marriage amendment. William Jefferson Clinton, favorite of many gay Americans did more to harm gays then most presidents before or since. He took an Executive Order banning gays from serving in our military and turned it into a law (much harder to change) that has resulted in more gay servicemen being discharged than before. Not only did he not veto the Defense of Marriage Act, or let it become law without his signature (as happens with most laws), he signed it and then advertised on Christian radio stations that he had done so.

What made this possible? His knowledge that the largest majority of gay voters would vote for him and his party no matter what he did. Why do some Republicans push for this amendment? They have no doubt that no matter what they do, they will only win a tiny percentage of gay American voters and so they appeal to other voters.

Until their is a contest for our votes, both parties will continue to ignore our issues (or work against our rights).

/carmi

 

[wallyb]

Uncle!
Happy.

 

[mickeyfan2]

Can't agree more with the need for separation of religion and civil in the context of marriage.

In Mexico, there is both; the religious ceremony, then the civil one. The religious one is not recognized without the civil one!

Here we endow the religious with the legal/civil powers.

This is not true. Just being married in a Church does not make you married in the eyes of the state. When we got married we had to go to the state and get a marriage license. The Priest who performed the ceremony was registered with the state to officiate over state recognized marriages. If we got married without that paper and three signature (officiator - Priest and two witnesses - MOH and BM) the state would not have recognized the marriage.

 

[skoi]

Hi there! I'm not gay- but I happened to see the post title highlighted as I was scrolling down the board and would like to offer a thought on this. When I was in grad school- a department with a fairly large minority of gay and lesbian students almost every one was opposed to gay marriage as it "replicated the injustices of the patriarchal system". They believed we had to get past these strictures and create a new society, etc. Perhaps this is part of it?

My view- I can see the legal worry on the part of churches that feel that it would be against their teachings to marry gay people. I've heard this expressed by religious people, who are afraid gay marriage will be used as a test to attack specific churches for political purposes. I'm not agreeing or not, but can understand this concern. HOWEVER, as a very observant yet non-aligned Christian, I see no problem with legal marriage for any two consenting adults. In fact, this is one of the issues over which we left our church. I didn't want our kids hearing anything we would judge as homophobic, because honestly, I don't want to have to then explain how our gay friends aren't "bad" when they come to our house for dinner. And our middle one would ask- "why are Mr X and Mr Y living a sinful life?" And my answer, "well honey because the state won't let them get married," wouldn't play well when he reported it back to his Sunday school teacher.

Sorry to get OT, but just want to get it out there that not all conservatives and Christians oppose gay marriage and are raging homophobes. Oh, and Major Tom- agree with you on the Clinton administration don't ask, don't tell.I knew a Marine sergeant in for 18 years who got booted out as a result. He lost all chance at retirement because he "left" before twenty.

Thanks for reading. Sorry for the intrusion, and I'm going off to where I was headed originally.
Julie

 

[njchris]

My view- I can see the legal worry on the part of churches that feel that it would be against their teachings to marry gay people. I've heard this expressed by religious people, who are afraid gay marriage will be used as a test to attack specific churches for political purposes. I'm not agreeing or not, but can understand this concern.

I wonder why this would even BE a concern? I have not heard it said ANYWHERE that churches would have to marry gay people. Would it not be the same as a Catholic Priest that will not marry Jewish people in their own faith (or the other way around). If the concern is that we would force churches to marry us, why would it not be a concern that Jewish people will start storming Catholic or other christian churches as well?

There are plenty of religious organizations that do not believe the same things, and that anyone not following their religion will go to hell.

Anyway.. that wasn't an attack on you, Julie.. just wanted to throw some more food for thought your way.

Don't some other countries have Gay marraige? Have they fallen apart? Has Massachusets imploded?

 

[DVC~OKW~96]

Hi Mickeyfan. I didn't make it very clear, but that is what I am talking about. Religious (priests, ministers, pastors...) are endowed by the state to allow them to perform legally binding marriages, so yes, the state is involved in some respect.

It is a good argument to let the state continue to be the final authority and if someone wants religious overlay, they can choose to do so.

 

[skoi]

I haven't said any societies would fall apart or implode. I don't think that.

But it is a concern among some denominations. No one said they would have to, but many churches have become litigation shy. I've read Tammy Bruce (and I know a lot of people disagree with her, and she's been called a "traitor", etc) among other commentators discuss this possibility- because people with a political axe to grind have done similar things before. Don't know if it would happen, just saying it's a concern I've heard expressed among people in more conservative churches including the Catholic church. Maybe it's a slippery slope argument, but I think it's a genuine worry people have, that their churches will be legally attacked if they defend their doctrines.

To answer your example directly, the Catholic church isn't pressed to marry Jewish couples, because Jewish couples don't ask to be married in the church. They have no reason to. If a gay couple did, and they were refused, you don't think there are advocacy groups who would undertake a lawsuit or campaign against the Catholic church? Just asking- because this is the fear people have based on past political actions. No matter if you agree with it, there are Christians and Catholics who truly believe their faith is under attack, and people are looking for any and all ways to get them. Again- I'm not saying this, but this is their belief based on personal experience and the sort of litigation they see coming into courts recently.

Thanks for the food for thought. I'll pass it on in my discussions with church people. As I said, I'm in favor of gay marriage. Marriage is ultimately a legal contract, and we really should sever it from the religious dimension. If you want words said over your union by a religious authority, fine, but a judge or other government official should have to sign that license. On the other hand, I've had Libertarians tell me that the state should have nothing to do with marriage because the state has no abiding interest in it.

Sorry for the wordy reply (can you tell I used to be an historian in my pre-mother life?). I just wanted to be give a thorough answer so as not to be misunderstood, being a guest and all.

Julie

 

[njchris]

I haven't said any societies would fall apart or implode. I don't think that.

I didnt mean that you did.. just an extra comment.

Just saying it's a concern I've heard expressed among people in more conservative churches including the Catholic church. Maybe it's a slippery slope argument, but I think it's a genuine worry people have, that their churches will be legally attacked if they defend their doctrines.

A genuine worry or an excuse to continue to spout hateful comments behind a shield of God? I have not heard from ANY of the gay people I know (nor do I think it) that we want churches to change. It's unfounded.

To answer your example directly, the Catholic church isn't pressed to marry Jewish couples, because Jewish couples don't ask to be married in the church. They have no reason to. If a gay couple did, and they were refused, you don't think there are advocacy groups who would undertake a lawsuit or campaign against the Catholic church?

Ok, let me just say this.. Gay people do not have a single hive mind. They are people with different thoughts and wants and desires.. just like everyone else. I do not think that this situation would have any backing from the majority of homosexuals. This is not about changing what the churches do. It's really totally OUTSIDE of that.

Just asking- because this is the fear people have based on past political actions.

what past actions exactly?

No matter if you agree with it, there are Christians and Catholics who truly believe their faith is under attack, and people are looking for any and all ways to get them. Again- I'm not saying this, but this is their belief based on personal experience and the sort of litigation they see coming into courts recently.

Oh, I understand that's what they say. It's unfounded. How is someone's faith under attack? It's theirs.. nobody can change them unless they want to change their faith. Faith is not a tangible thing that anyone can dictate. I don't think what I believe or have, could possibly affect someone else's faith and beliefs.

Thanks for the food for thought. I'll pass it on in my discussions with church people. As I said, I'm in favor of gay marriage. Marriage is ultimately a legal contract, and we really should sever it from the religious dimension.

that would solve a lot of problems ... but I don't see that happening.

Sorry for the wordy reply (can you tell I used to be an historian in my pre-mother life?). I just wanted to be give a thorough answer so as not to be misunderstood, being a guest and all.

at least you are open to talk about it.

 

[Viki]

To answer your example directly, the Catholic church isn't pressed to marry Jewish couples, because Jewish couples don't ask to be married in the church. They have no reason to. If a gay couple did, and they were refused, you don't think there are advocacy groups who would undertake a lawsuit or campaign against the Catholic church? Just asking- because this is the fear people have based on past political actions. No matter if you agree with it, there are Christians and Catholics who truly believe their faith is under attack, and people are looking for any and all ways to get them. Again- I'm not saying this, but this is their belief based on personal experience and the sort of litigation they see coming into courts recently.

Interesting question, Julie, but let me point out that I turn down requests to preside at the wedding of folk for all sorts of reasons and the RCC does so even more frequently.