Freedom . . . and bigotry

[Deb in IA]

Recently there has been much heated discussion about boycotts, bigotry, and racism. Lots of rhetoric, angry words, feelings hurt.

These are difficult times, indeed.

I'll admit that I have been thinking a great deal about these issues as well. I agree that there is a difference beween boycotting certain things, as bigtory.

Free trade still exists. If I do not choose to purchase a product, for whatever reason, is that not my prerogative? After all, we have the right to be exclusionary. Just look at Augusta National golf course and Rose-Hulman University, where no women are admitted, just to name a few examples.

But what really concerns me is that we were told to "knock off" the bigotry and racism.

I am certain that Willy had only the best of intentions when he wrote that. BUT, remember, this is a free country. We actually have the freedom to be a racist and a bigot, as distasteful as that may be.

No one can MAKE you like someone. I have the right to dislike YOU, just as you have the right to dislike ME, for whatever reasons you choose.


I do not make these statements lightly. In fact, I grew up Asian in a very, very white middle America in the 60's. I have personally felt the sting of racial ephitets ("Hey Hop Sing! Where's your laundry?" or "Go back to where you came from, you Chink!") and people using gibberish as "Chinese" -- as Shaquille O'Neal did just last year when interviewed about Yao Ming. Believe me, it hurts. It hurts a lot, and you don't forget it. Ever.

But do those people have the right to dislike me, because of my race? Absolutely.

To NOT allow this, to MAKE people like the Chinese, or the French, or the Canadians, well, I think you are on a very slippery slope.

After all, didn't Saddam force everyone to like him, to vote for him, to fight and die for him as well?



And finally, although it has not been brought up, one could always say that these are Pete's boards, Pete's rules. And if Pete decides that no racism or bigotry is allowed, fine. But in the world outside of these boards, well, that's a different story.

 

[snoopy]

Interesting thoughts, Deb. I agree. Its impossible to control the thoughts of other people, all one can do when debating a topic, including racism and bigotry, is present their side as they see it.

 

[WebmasterMaryJo]

<font color=navy>Hi Deb,

I agree that we all have the right to be prejudiced, etc.; but just because we have that right doesn't make it right.

And, I'm always for trying to be a better person.

 

[Lanshark]

There are ways to debate issues without personally attacking someone. When emotions run high, as they are now, that concept seems to be forgotten. The same type of issues happened here after 9/11 when emotions also ran high.

 

[Keli]

Deb, I agree I have the right to be a bigot or a racist. I also know that those are one of the last things I ever want to be.

I also agree with you that boycotting something does not make you a bigot or a racist. Although I'm not much into boycotting myself, I respect others rights to do so and I realize that their motives certainly may stem from something other than bigotry or racism.

 

[gina2000]

Deb, I, too, have been thinking alot about what has happened both here, on the debate board, and in my own community. Life doesn't seem so easy these days, does it?

My big problem right now is the herd mentality. I feel like it's easier to throw stones when you know other people are doing it, regardless of whether it's right or wrong. I don't subscribe to that mentality and if anything, I have an anti-herd mentality. Hence, it's very hard for me to watch people do things that they wouldn't normally do/say/think because they are surrounded by people - the old safety in numbers idea. It's almost as if a madness overcomes people in stressful times....and they stop thinking and decide that it's more important to have a widely voiced opinion rather than thinking through that opinion and weighing other options.

My other major problem right now is the idea that a group of people carry the responsibility for one person's words or actions. Right now our government is polarized with many other governments around the world. I don't feel that should polarize my relationship with inhabitants of that country....despite the fact that their elected (yes, by the people) officials have said something hurtful to my country or to myself. No one can control what comes out of another person's mouth - yet they must bear the burden of those words. I don't agree with that.

And lastly, I feel that to lower my standards of behavior because others are doing it (i.e. - booing at games, saying hurtful things to children) does not make it right. Again, people are angry. They say things that are emphatically wrong. I don't like it but I will not blame the country of origin and every inhabitant in it for the slur/insult.

Do we have the right to think the things we do? Of course we do.....only if we have truly examined our thoughts and decided that our opinions are based on sound reasoning. If not, I believe that we are shortchanging ourselves, the people we love and, ultimately, our nation.

If nothing else (and believe me, I'm not religious), a little bit of turning the other cheek would benefit these boards greatly.

I hope people will not continue to hurt those they love. This place will never be the same.....and I, for one, am sorry.....

 

[marlasmom]

Dr. Deb and Gina 2000 - as usual you have said it extremely well.

 

[mamajoan]

gotta say this thread has surprised me...
also that the views presented were well thought and written.

I believe in the ideas of free speech. That being said I wish people utilizing this idea to promote negativity, hate, and despair would listen with their hearts as well as their ears. But again it is Free Speech by all.. not only Free Speech by those I agree with at the time.
I think the one of the hardest thing about this war is that it has brought so many ugly, hateful ideas to the surface. I have been stunned to read some of the posts with opinions vastly different than mine. Sometimes I would like to be like an ostrich.. just letting the difficult things in the world pass me by without my knowing about them.

 

[Deb in IA]

Let me clarify:

I do NOT think any bigotry or discrimination, based on race, nationality, gender, age, sexual preference is CORRECT. I personally think it is abhorrant and disgusting. I cannot emphasize this enough.


But do people have the RIGHT to those views? YES, I believe.

And I can disagree, I can discuss, I can try as hard as I can to change their mind. And I do.

But I cannot force someone to like someone else.

 

[gina2000]

Of course you can't force someone to like someone else, Deb. But to dislike someone you FORMERLY liked because of politics or religion is wrong in my opinion. Also, to dislike a group of people based on what their spokesperson is saying (and in a democracy we use one elected voice that does not always offer the opinion of all, nor even the majority in some cases) is also wrong. Especially if we formerly liked those people. That is where I think we damage our relationships, our credibility and our honor.

Bigotry is an ugly word. It carries with it ignorance and intolerance. Every time we allow it to happen, we are saying something about ourselves that is neither flattering nor honest to the image we, as Americans, try to portray.

Are we allowed? Sure. Everyone is allowed to have opinions....bigoted or not. But the words we utter last an eternity. And people never forget.

My only point in all of this is that we, as individuals, should always challenge our own thoughts and ideas....perhaps before we even utter them. This way we are sure in our hearts and minds that our viewpoint is rational, well thought out, and will carry us through the good times and the bad.

The enemy of my enemy may not WANT to be my friend.

 

[Robinrs]

As with raising children or being an authority figure in any society, you cannot control people, you can only influence them.

I'm sure there are people here with bigotted thoughts and ideals, but NOT to write them on a moderated board takes a certain form of maturity, couth and self control.

I cannot tell my son to not FEEL something, but I can teach him how to react about those feelings.

Again, Willy didn't equate boycotting and bigotry. He was pointing out a particular post that said a very hurtful and unnecessary thing about a group of people. He made the point to say, let's discuss, but let's try to do it as adults.

As a bonified "adult" I think that's the least Pete, the WMs and the moderators ask from the posters here.

I think and feel ALOT of things I NEVER put on this board. Why? One because I am an adult and have control of what I do and say and two, because I know other people are reading this. This means something to me. It's a reflection of who I am and what I choose to reflect. Of course, some people would rather say what they want to say because they feel they have the right. But no one, I repeat, no one, has the right to hurt someone deliberately. It's wrong.

So I continue to think and feel and dislike and whatever. But that does not mean I have to act like a two year old and let everyone know what I think and feel and dislike, especially when it could affect a group of people.

As for discrimination, you haven't heard ANYTHING until you've walked a mile in my 47 year old shoes. Take my word for it.

 

[gina2000]

Originally posted by Deb in IA


No one can MAKE you like someone. I have the right to dislike YOU, just as you have the right to dislike ME, for whatever reasons you choose.

But do those people have the right to dislike me, because of my race? Absolutely.

To NOT allow this, to MAKE people like the Chinese, or the French, or the Canadians, well, I think you are on a very slippery slope.

Deb, I'm getting to be a windbag. I admit this. But I've been thinking some more. Is it okay to only SAY horrible things about a race of people rather than act out? After all....put KKK in there and I think you'd have a rather big change of opinion about bigotry. Also.....put the word genocide into the mix....I don't think it looks too pretty.

Also, is it okay for an individual to be bigoted but not a country as a whole? Is the difference the capability of acting out your bigotry versus feeling it/speaking it? When do thoughts translate into actions? When does a herd mentality take over?

I know freedom of speech is an important right granted us under our constitution. But when it takes rights away from others, is it acceptable?

(Aren't you sorry you ever started this topic?)

I don't have any clear cut answers to any of this. But you set me thinking.....again.....

 

[Deb in IA]

OK, Gina, I'll give this a try . . .

I believe that people have the right to believe any stupid, ignorant, biased, racist, sexist thing they want to believe.

And yes, I do believe the KKK has the right, under the First Amendment, to free, PEACEABLE speech. I do NOT believe in censorship -- even for these scumbags.

But just because I believe that people have the right to be racist, does not mean I agree with them. Let me repeat this: I do NOT agree with their beliefs.

As for genocide, well, that's murder, and that's NOT acceptable.

Beliefs are held internally. Actions are governed by the laws and statues of our country.

Taking away rights of others goes both ways. Is it acceptable to take away the right of a KKK'er to spout off their stupid, bigoted rhetoric because you don't agree with it, but NOT OK to take away the right of someone protesting the war, because you agree with them?

FREEDOM carries with it obligations -- the obligation to grant everyone the same freedoms, whether their views are popular or not.

As Voltaire said, "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

 

[glo]

Deb, I could not have said it better myself...and that I know. As a child I was the only hispanic in a very white Irish neighborhood. I grew up in Boston when schools started bussing the kids to make Boston more desegregated. It was hell...and I hated it. I was called many things, and I responded by fighting..yes, I am a city rat.

Even with my background, I will defend people's right to their opinion and their right to say it. I too may not agree, and hate what they say, but it is their right.

I do not say this lightly, but I do not think people understand what it is like to not have that freedom. To be so scared to say what you feel because of the reprucussions. To have to leave a country with nothing, and escape to a place you do not know. To be separated from family and beaten and almost starved to death. My family went through all that. My father though short (5'6"), weighed under 100 lbs, when he left Cuba. He had a massive infection that almost killed him. He had to stay behind for two years, after we escaped. My parents were only in their early 20's and had a 4 year old (me) and chose to leave and risk it all.

The right to speak freely, to practice our religion, and to have a life that I choose, are things that I did not have had we stayed in Cuba. I was brought up to treasure those rights, and though I may not agree with you, will always defend your right to do them.

 

[annemariec]

I think there are some really good insights on this thread. I had a similar reaction as Deb to WillyJ's thread. I think there is a difference in boycotting and bigotry. I understand his intent was not necessarily to co-mingle the two, but it struck me as harsh in that context. And at that time.

Funny thing is, I'm not boycotting. I have been trying to, "Buy American" for years. It's tough to do with international buy outs, merges and with US companies are scattered here and yon. But I do try to support our economy. Lord knows we need it.

I've been amazed, disappointed, and flabbergasted with some of the things I've read. It doesn't matter my perspective. I'm sure many others with different viewpoints from mine have had similar reactions to things they have read. Glo has asked many times for people to think before they type. I hope we all take it to heart.

It's a shame. We are at a time of crisis. War. We should all try to be kinder to one another.

** Glo, I'm sorry for the things that happened to you and your family. Thanks for sharing your insight and your struggle.

Annemarie

 

[glo]

Annemarie...nothing to feel sorry about...without the risks and the struggle I would not be here. My children would not be here and I would not be free to say as I feel

I am ahead of the game

 

[philaround]

I have lurked on the debate board for about a month now but never posted here before because I just could not believe that just because people disagreed with each other they could not have a logical well thought out dialog. Now I do realize that there is no real desent in this thread, how can there be with the propostion that everyone has the right to believe in whatever they wish and also have the right to try to get others to belive as they do.

We also have the right to not listen to or believe in anything that goes against our personal beliefs. No one has the right to try to force anyone else to believe as they do. Unfortunenatly for the reasonable and logical among us there is always someone who believes that all they need to do to win converts to there way of thinking is to out yell them.

Racial, national & ethnic slurs are designed to get the reasonable and logical to react in a negative way so that the imature can respond with that age old juvinile response "see I told you so".

As a member of what was know as the "flower generation" all I have to say is "Peace and love to all" regardless of there beliefs, but I don't have to like them.

 

[caitycaity]

gina, i couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Zurg]

You're a giant in my eyes glo.

I think that freedom and responsibility are part and parcel of the same thing. To be free do choose does not obliterate the responsibility to do so wisely.

To be free to speak one has a responibility to say something worthwhile (or at least funny and that I find very worthwhile but I digress).

Free speach has a price, as our good friend glo makes so clear, to treat it as otherwise is to make it cheap speach.

 

[Saffron]

Deb and Gina -- you both bring up some good points.

Let me say this in defense of WillyJ. He witnessed his friends hurt, to the core, by people who were saying the most unbelievable things, and he read where people felt awful about themselves and were scared to post here anymore because of the reaction of some of the people towards them simply because of their nationality. He came to the defense of those he loved and of all the posters on this board who felt they were being attacked by a few. Could he have stated his oringinal post in other words, yes, and he tried to do so in a second post on the second page, but people either just skimmed over it or didn't care. He made it very clear that he wanted the racist and bigoted remarks stopped, not the boycotting - it just so happened the thread he read that had a lot of hateful things in it had both things mentioned.

And you're right, it's Pete's house and Pete's rules, and I think that racist or bigoted jokes and comments are usually deleted, or the threads locked, but I could be wrong, that's just my observation as a poster. One of the mods or WM's will have to speak about that.

Will is not trying to force anyone to like anyone. He is trying to get people to stop posting hateful stuff. I know many don't agree with censorship in any form, but the Dis is a censored board. What get's censored is up to Pete. The mods just follow along. Maybe this stuff is allowed, maybe not. I'm sure Will thinks it's not, otherwise he wouldn't have said anything.

Will never, ever set out to intentionally hurt anyone. I think he'll be surprised and feel bad that he has. He considers each and every person on the boards his friend.

Normally I wouldn't speak for him, but he is out of town right now, working with an old lap top that is akin to working with a tin cup and piece of string. I'll let him know about this thread though, and maybe he'll be able to get on long enough to respond to you.

Gina, I agree with you 100%. That is what I see and how I feel. Same with Will (but again, I don't want to speak for him, but I'm 99.9% sure).