FP + What we know and what we want to know

[Cinderumbrella]

Yes but they want to spend their day riding the 3 Mountains all day. If they were only allowed 1 FP to one of those and had to ride standby all the other times, it wouldn't work as well.

ITA! The question is, do the geniuses who thought up this plan realize that, or is this another group in the minority that they don't care about alienating.

Frankly, since they have said they don't want to start a ride war with US (link somewhere in this monster thread), they probably don't care. Thrill junkies and thrill junkies alone should go to a thrill ride park.

They are banking on the fact that there is so much more offered at Disney in addition to a thrill ride, that they will keep coming anyway, at least for part of an Orlando stay. 4 days at WDW and 3 days at US is still better for Disney then no days at WDW. For that segment of folks, perhaps that is a good enough % for the Disney Brass.

 

[Disney_Princess83]

I will preface this by saying I don't know all the ins and outs of military tickets. But from what I have read, I think you have to purchase those tickets on site when you arrive. My greatest concern for you would be whether you will be able to access the advance reservation system prior to arriving, since you will presumable not have purchased those tickets yet.

I really can't believe they would put their military customers at such a disadvantage though, and will surely come up with a remedy.

I hope so! It looks like we have to purchase our AP voucher months earlier than we usually would as we would need the AP voucher number to make FP+ reservations. We usually just put it upon arrival

 

[doconeill]

Actually, it's fair to believe that a company would limit tests in any number of ways. Tests are tests for a reason. It's unreasonable to expect final releases to ever closely resemble what was tested.

When you are dealing with something that would affect how someone would use something, and want to judge it's overall effectiveness and usability, you want the test to be as close to the real thing as possible, especially when it is closer to release.

Early on, sure...it could be a lot more limited. But pretty much every test since has been limited in the exact same way.

Could it change? Sure - but I have no reason to believe the tiering or 3 FP+ advance limit is changing.

 

[Cinderumbrella]

I will preface this by saying I don't know all the ins and outs of military tickets. But from what I have read, I think you have to purchase those tickets on site when you arrive. My greatest concern for you would be whether you will be able to access the advance reservation system prior to arriving, since you will presumable not have purchased those tickets yet.

I really can't believe they would put their military customers at such a disadvantage though, and will surely come up with a remedy.

And I know that several people on the original Disney Parks Blog announcement specifically asked about military tickets in the comments section, so hopefully it has been noticed at least through that as something that needs to be addressed!

 

[WillAustin]

This makes me wonder about those people who are clueless. When this goes online, we know that there will be a fastpick option, and Disney will select rides for you. But nobody has mentioned yet that Disney will be able to pick PARKS for you too.

If I enter a 6 day pass and I don't preselected park days, then Disney can suggest parks and rides for me. They could suggest restaurants too. If I have ADRs, then fastpasses could be recommended for me based on those reservations. This is another fun tool for Disney. And the beauty of this is people can anything anytime they want through the website and app. I would imagine a substantial number of people would accept the fastpicks.

I know several people who weren't aware how many parks there were, even when planning their trip. Disney could funnel people to the parks projecting less crowds. There should be a substantial number of guests that would look at an "automatic itinerary" based on their likes and more than happily accept the schedule.

 

[bcrook]

That is an awesome question. I can't believe nobody has thought of it up until now.

I do get the argument about getting to sleep in and still get a FP, but once just wouldn't cut it for most teenagers. For many, it's a badge of honor to report how many times they were able to ride a certain thrill ride.

Last summer my teens definitely had competitions and reported to us how many rides they went on and how much fun they had. BADGE OF HONOR is right.
We did find out that when it rained really hard for several hours the lines dropped to walk on. So maybe I will use some of my FP+ for booking some thunderstorms! I like them best on DHS days!

 

[Robo]

I thought they are getting ready to change that soon though...

It has been announced at DLR, then delayed, time and again.

It would have been easy to change both parks' policies at the same time.
Doing so would have been evidence of a "need to fix an overall FP problem."

 

[mom2rtk]

I thought they are getting ready to change that soon though...

...and if it is likewise in advance of FP+ coming to DL, and I think it is, it would lend more credence to the idea that FP enforcement was less to do with abuse as it was to get people prepped for FP+.

I was watching a thread over there but haven't gotten any new posts in a while. The latest rumor was that it would start by the end of this month.

But I'm curious how what we are surmising about the WDW plans would play at DLR. Definitely FAR more experienced, return guests to potentially alienate. Or maybe they all go so often that they're past caring if they ride a given ride multliple times? After all, those are the folks who stake out spots for Fantasmic 5 hours before the show.

 

[MAGICFOR2]

Sounds like you'd have to get up early to do that.

What? No! Then you might be a super user!

That's the only thing that will make them change the system. 1000's of complaints won't help if they see even the smallest increase in their bottom line.

Boycot!!! Let's all agree not to buy any new T-shirts, toys, slushies, dole whips - Less stage a sit-in to get our FP Back! (oops just dated myself)

We never stockpiled fastpasses because we used them as we went along. That was just our touring style. As for giving them away, I only did this when we had already pulled fastpasses for use but then had to leave for whatever reason. Throwing them away seemed pointless since we already had them.

Some would say that my desire to ride Star Tours more than once via fastpass would be abusing the system. That one really puzzles me. I don't see anything as an abuse if it was allowed by Disney.

That is our from of "abuse" too. I guess I will apologize to Disney right now! Then I would do it again if I could.

The ticket plainly states its non-transferable on the back of it. To use it any other fashion is abuse. You dont have to agree with it but it is still abuse.

Disney doesnt need a secondary distribution system of their FPs. Just like they never needed secondary distribution of CRT ressies by "angels" years ago.

When people used FPs in this manner it prevented other people from getting FPs at rides like TSMM and Soaring all because someone wanted to spread some "pixie dust"

I understand more the people who pulled some FPs and found they didnt need them and then gave them away. Still technically against the rules but they didnt pull the FP with the expressed purpose of giving it away later in the day because they wanted to get some self satisfaction out of spreading "Disney Magic"

I just don't see how these "angels" got so many FP that they were able to make a difference in the overall operation of Disney. I think that is a very short-sighted view of things. There is a much bigger picture and plan in order for Disney to make this happen.

Actually, no, I've said if they limit it to 3 FP+s per day, it will be a net negative for our family. Yes, that sucks for us.

I've never said it will fail, and have even said it's probably a better option for the people who didn't use FP before. Again, it sucks for us if it is what it appears to be. This is a discussion forum. I like discussing the possibilities. We have a lot of money on the line for upcoming trips and I'm a Disney stockholder, and probably one of the biggest Disney addicts and proponents you'll ever see. The net effect for us, specifically, is really important in our planning.

It seems to only be a discussion forum if you agree with certain people here - otherwise get out your fire extinguisher!

Of course they do! I have spent over $10,000 on my trip in May/June and I'm not even there yet the transition period concerns my ability to really enjoy the trip I have invested this kind of money in

ITA - I think the best way to protect your investment is to gather as much information as possible. Too bad it is so slow in coming...

Re: Transferring FP+ reservations to others in your party (e.g. letting your kid use your Tower FP). Depending on how exactly you read the DPE Terms and Conditions, this may well be possible. I would not assume you can't just yet.

If they "legalize" it then it won't be abuse anymore!

I've been reading DisBoards for five years now, and I can't recall anyone ever defending SELLING of Fast Passes.

I'm not interested in re-debating why selling is wrong, but giving away is OK, (although isn't there obviously a difference in financial return between selling and giving? Just askin'.....)

At any rate, just wanted to correct the idea that we FP super-users must be in favor of selling FPs.

I've never heard of selling FP or seen it either, and I'm a little shocked. That would be wrong on so many levels. It is ludicrous to lump it in the same category as giving your family member your FP. I don't think that Disney ever meant to be so rigid on all the rules in order to make it hard for families to enjoy their day. I think they just try the best they can to control the majority of users.

I am mostly a lurker, but I have to add to this conversation.

To think that Disney has spent $1 billion dollars and it has taken them 14 years (since fp first started) to figure out how to stop people from "abusing and gaming the system" is ridiculous. If that's the case, that's the poorest business model ever. I can see the execs sitting around the table saying, "What are we going to do about these super users?? They come at the break of dawn, pull fast passes, and then hand them to their children to use later. It's out of control!" And their answer? "Let's spend a billion dollars and change every lock on every resort door. Let's change every turnstile. Let's change every check out counter at every store. That will show them. At least, those rule breakers will be stopped!"

This is about the future. This is about being ahead of the curve with technology. Disney just released the news of an upcoming gaming experience this summer called "Disney Infinity." I have 4 boys under the age of 16 and they have watched the trailers of this game this week several times. Guess what technology this game will use? RFID. And it's possible there will be a theme park compatibility aspect to it. Can you say, "return on investment?" This is gonna cost me a pretty penny, I can already tell.

Disney is following the trend and going "paperless" And they are trying to be ahead of the trend in the "theme park experience."

Do I love it? No. Because, I'm used to the way I have learned to "do Disney" in the past. (I also prefer to read actual books and do not own a kindle). Do I think that 3 fp+ a day and the possibility that that will only include 1 e-ticket ride is ridiculous and will downgrade my experience? yes. But I'm hoping that Disney will address those concerns. My personal feeling is they have designed this new, breaking edge, technology and used "averages" as their model. So if the execs have looked and said, "The average guest is happy if they experience 9 attractions a day. The average guest uses 3 fp a day. The average guest says that their experience would be enhanced if they had reserved seating for the parade" Then they designed their new system with those features. Am I an average guest? no. I am hoping that this will be tweaked as it rolls out, and will make it more friendly to my personal touring style. But time will tell.

This is the future. And we will have growing pains. And I will adapt. But to say this whole thing came about to "fix fp abuses" is ridiculous.

Yep. It is just too big a project for just the surface concerns and applications we see now.

Oh, it was pretty big business.

It used to be easy to print fake FPs...then Disney added features to the tickets themselves to put an end to that.

It used to be easy to pass a FP from a previous day - and then Disney make the date bigger and put it with the time to make it easier for the CMs to verify.

And there was a "company" that somehow managed to get FPs for given times for that day and deliver them to you at your resort - before the park opened. Must have been some inside job...I think they eventually disappeared as well.

FP+ eliminates all of that. Too bad about the collateral damage...

Where was that company when I was there? Did they serve breakfast in bed, too?

Fess up mousemerf.

When you worked at Disney, you were in charge of the Dream Squad, right?

You just seem to exude magic.

I'm thinking entrance at SM or games at Innovation.

Also dining, like with the "angels" (which I sat through the meetings where Disney execs essentially referred to those people as being the scum of the earth in their eyes - "we must stop them somehow" was the sentiment) there were the people "who weren't hurting anyone else" by making dining reservations for 3 different restaurants for each dining period and then just going to the one they wanted.

Disney put a stop to that too, it had always been against the policy, but it took the online reservation system which simply wont allow it to be done in order for the problem to be stopped.

So if I am correct, Disney hates me and thinks I am scum because I chose to give my child my FP. Now I am learning that they are meaning something else when they say have a "magical day". Plus, Disney doesn't care about me because I am not a first time guest. I think I would rather have repeat guests that spend $100,000+ over the course of many years than a 1 time guest spending 10,000 on one trip in a lifetime.

I wouldn't say it was Disney - just some crabby employees. In defense of this attempt to ruffle our feathers by Mousemerf, I will say that I think many of us work in jobs where we come in contact with the public, and things are said behind the scenes that we would not want the general public to hear or know about. Your doctor's office, for instance. It is a way to let off steam when the customers are driving you crazy.

You must mean based on some insider info you have -- nothing from this thread is focusing anything, because there is no new official info to focus in on!

Part of the title is "what we don't know"

 

[Disney_Princess83]

ITA! The question is, do the geniuses who thought up this plan realize that, or is this another group in the minority that they don't care about alienating.

Frankly, since they have said they don't want to start a ride war with US (link somewhere in this monster thread), they probably don't care. Thrill junkies and thrill junkies alone should go to a thrill ride park.

They are banking on the fact that there is so much more offered at Disney in addition to a thrill ride, that they will keep coming anyway, at least for part of an Orlando stay. 4 days at WDW and 3 days at US is still better for Disney then no days at WDW. For that segment of folks, perhaps that is a good enough % for the Disney Brass.

The problem with this, is that families visit Disney together. You might a family that consists of two parents, a toddler, an 8 year old and 1-2 in their early teens. They all have such different wants/needs. The teens want to ride the Mountains, the toddler wants to spend all day in Fantasyland and the 8 year old loves Frontierland.

 

[mbrittb00]

bcrook, could you add a link to this post to the first post. It is a more accurate analysis to the discussion as the origional analysis that you linked was based on only resort guest being able to use FP+.

I imagine that their modeling showed that this would allow most everyone who would want a FP for a particular ride to be able to get one or allow a substantial number of people to get them while holding back some for same day.

I seriously don't see how, once FP+ is fully implemented, they will be able to hold ANY back for same day. The Math just doesn't support the ability to do that.

Take the example of Space Mountain. My initial analysis was based on only resort guests being able to use FP+. I've revised that analysis below to reflect everyone visiting WDW being able to use FP+

Assumptions:
Park open from 9am - midnight : 15 hours
Ride operating at 90% efficiency
FPs take approx 80% of the ride capacity
Park Capacity : 100k.
Park is 75% full
33% of guest want a SpaM FP+
Only 75% of them book SpaM FP+.

THRC (Theoricial Hourly Ride Capacity) : 2000
Actual Hourly Ride Capacity : 1800
Daily Ride Capacity : 27k
Total FPs available : 21.6k

Total Guests : 75k
Guests wanting FP+ for SpaM : 24.75k

Number of FPs that they are short : 3.15k

If you hold some back for day of you create one of two scenarios. 1) Some people get an advanced FP+ for SpaM, then get another one the day of. or 2) People who get an advanced FP+ for SpaM can't get one day of. If that is the scenario, they why not make them all available for advanced reservations? I just don't see how FP and FP+ can coexist.


Here is an example with Epcot:

Epcot FP Analysis

These numbers are based on high season operating hours.

To summarize:
Attraction / Ride Capacity / #FPs
Soarin' / 24k / 19.2k
Test Track / 27k / 21.6k
Mission Space / 26k / 21k

Total FPs avaliable (for the headliners) at Epcot on a high season day :
61.8k.

Park capacity for Epcot is somewhere around 75k (probably bigger). It's true that a lot of people won't want to ride all three, but it is a pretty safe bet that everyone will want to ride at least one of the three.

 

[bcrook]

I apologize if this has already been brought up. I didn't read every post. Any idea how this will work with military discounted tickets? We have a room reservation in June but there are not tickets attached to the ressie. We will purchase tickets at Shades of Green upon arrival at WDW. I really hope Disney has considered the thousands of military families that vacation at WDW!

Hi! I will add your question to first page, I don't think it is there. But, think that all tickets will be "link able" because the goal is to get everyone in the bracelet. I think they have made it clear that this is for everyone, if you don't want to be part of it - you can opt out.

 

[pmdeve]

There will be four of us on our next trip, will we all be able to select different fast passes or do we all have to do he same things?

 

[bigAWL]

I don't see advertising as Disney trying to force anything. They are simply throwing a product out there and saying "look at how fun this - come check it out" like a zillion other advertisers do. If they are taking away what I see as advantages just to make sure that it takes more time to do less than I do see this as creepy. JMO.

I personally don't believe that that's what they're doing though.

I think that by advantages you are referring to the current FP system that works well for your family. I don't see it as any different than removing an attraction and replacing it with a new one.

Your family used to really enjoy that old ride and now see it as a bad thing. But the new ride will potentially attract a million new guests who never rode that old ride.

They are changing the experience in a way that they can market much more easily to the masses, even though it's going to disappoint a lot of their repeat visitors.

 

[bcrook]

bcrook, could you add a link to this post to the first post. It is a more accurate analysis to the discussion as the origional analysis that you linked was based on only resort guest being able to use FP+.



I seriously don't see how, once FP+ is fully implemented, they will be able to hold ANY back for same day. The Math just doesn't support the ability to do that.

Take the example of Space Mountain. My initial analysis was based on only resort guests being able to use FP+. I've revised that analysis below to reflect everyone visiting WDW being able to use FP+

Assumptions:
Park open from 9am - midnight : 15 hours
Ride operating at 90% efficiency
FPs take approx 80% of the ride capacity
Park Capacity : 100k.
Park is 75% full
33% of guest want a SpaM FP+
Only 75% of them book SpaM FP+.

THRC (Theoricial Hourly Ride Capacity) : 2000
Actual Hourly Ride Capacity : 1800
Daily Ride Capacity : 27k
Total FPs available : 21.6k

Total Guests : 75k
Guests wanting FP+ for SpaM : 24.75k

Number of FPs that they are short : 3.15k

If you hold some back for day of you create one of two scenarios. 1) Some people get an advanced FP+ for SpaM, then get another one the day of. or 2) People who get an advanced FP+ for SpaM can't get one day of. If that is the scenario, they why not make them all available for advanced reservations? I just don't see how FP and FP+ can coexist.


Here is an example with Epcot:

Epcot FP Analysis

These numbers are based on high season operating hours.

To summarize:
Attraction / Ride Capacity / #FPs
Soarin' / 24k / 19.2k
Test Track / 27k / 21.6k
Mission Space / 26k / 21k

Total FPs avaliable (for the headliners) at Epcot on a high season day :
61.8k.

Park capacity for Epcot is somewhere around 75k (probably bigger). It's true that a lot of people won't want to ride all three, but it is a pretty safe bet that everyone will want to ride at least one of the three.

I agree, and it should updated soon.

 

[Robo]

Why does it bother you if they aren't policing FP return times at some of the DLs? Please don't say because they aren't being 'fair' to you.

If you want a response, please don't tell me what I am allowed to say.

Your insensitivity and rudeness are very hurtful.

 

[Disney_Princess83]

If you want a response, don't tell me what I am allowed to say.

Your insensitivity rudeness is very hurtful.

We love you Robo!

 

[Cinderumbrella]

The problem with this, is that families visit Disney together. You might a family that consists of two parents, a toddler, an 8 year old and 1-2 in their early teens. They all have such different wants/needs. The teens want to ride the Mountains, the toddler wants to spend all day in Fantasyland and the 8 year old loves Frontierland.

And this is EXACTLY what Disney is banking on when I said they don't care about alienating the teenagers (MY words, not Disney). They know that they are going to have to come to their park because their parents and/or younger siblings want to, for reasons other than thrill rides.

Again, I don't agree with limiting headliners to 1 per day (if that is what will happen). But putting on my evil Disney Executive Hat, I can see that this could be the train of thought that went into it, in regards to that demographic.

 

[WillAustin]

Again, I don't agree with limiting headliners to 1 per day (if that is what will happen). But putting on my evil Disney Executive Hat, I can see that this could be the train of thought that went into it, in regards to that demographic.

Especially if the plan was to avoid a ride building war with competing parks.

 

[Disney_Princess83]

And this is EXACTLY what Disney is banking on when I said they don't care about alienating the teenagers (MY words, not Disney). They know that they are going to have to come to their park because their parents and/or younger siblings want to, for reasons other than thrill rides.

Again, I don't agree with limiting headliners to 1 per day (if that is what will happen). But putting on my evil Disney Executive Hat, I can see that this could be the train of thought that went into it, in regards to that demographic.

Exactly! The way it was currently was that the two teens could potentially split from their family, at least for a few hours and just keep riding the Mountains until they puked, with the help of FP's. One parent could take the toddler to Fantasyland for IASW, Peter Pan and Dumbo FP's, while the other parent grabbed FP's for whatever the 8 year olds wanted to do (what do 8 years old want to see/do at MK? ) It worked for everyone