FP+ = WDW Losing Money

[Sabor]

So, you never paid dues?

You just can't do simple math on it. I stayed at OKW in 2004 for 5 nights for $500 by renting points. Disney tries to sell you on the notion of rack rate at the most expensive time of the year. It's just not that simple.

Disney didn't sell me on anything -- I bought resale after doing my own research and never even talking to anyone at Disney.

The maintenance fees that I still pay -- are still less than what it would cost to stay in the accommodations that I stay in have nothing to do with recouping my initial cost.
I stayed in 2 bedroom villas in OKW, I know you didn't rent points and stay in a 2BR villa for 5 nights and pay $500. Now you are the one who is comparing apples to oranges. Then account for spending $150 at Publix for groceries and never having to pay for a meal for the week, because you have a full kitchen (easily saving $500 probably closer to $1000). And I didn't have to buy park tickets.

Rack rates at Disney has not changed much in the last 15 years and 2BR's at OKW were over $450 a night 15 years ago in low season and $600 in higher demand times, and villas were not as commonplace.
28 nights, no park passes and loaned points that were returned to me for future use.

Initial Investment $12,400 (incl maint fee) for 460 usable points first year.

Stayed 28 nights 2br (conservative $300/night) = $8400
Brother stayed 8 nights 2br = $2400
Park admission (4 trips 4 people)
Even if I bought AP twice (trips over 18 months) = $2400
(4 x 300 twice)
Brothers trip tickets (4people) = $1000 - $1200



** looked up ticket prices 1998-99

Sorry but the Math does work - initial investment was covered in 18 months.

 

[jade1]

Disney didn't sell me on anything -- I bought resale after doing my own research and never even talking to anyone at Disney.

The maintenance fees that I still pay -- are still less than what it would cost to stay in the accommodations that I stay in have nothing to do with recouping my initial cost.
I stayed in 2 bedroom villas in OKW, I know you didn't rent points and stay in a 2BR villa for 5 nights and pay $500. Now you are the one who is comparing apples to oranges. Then account for spending $150 at Publix for groceries and never having to pay for a meal for the week, because you have a full kitchen (easily saving $500 probably closer to $1000). And I didn't have to buy park tickets.

Rack rates at Disney has not changed much in the last 15 years and 2BR's at OKW were over $450 a night 15 years ago in low season and $600 in higher demand times, and villas were not as commonplace.
28 nights, no park passes and loaned points that were returned to me for future use.

Initial Investment $12,400 (incl maint fee) for 460 usable points first year.

Stayed 28 nights 2br (conservative $300/night) = $8400
Brother stayed 8 nights 2br = $2400
Park admission (4 trips 4 people)
Even if I bought AP twice (trips over 18 months) = $2400
(4 x 300 twice)
Brothers trip tickets (4people) = $1000 - $1200



** looked up ticket prices 1998-99

Sorry but the Math does work - initial investment was covered in 18 months.

Did you sell then as well? Or do you still own? If not, could still get $XX,XXX if you sold.

 

[Sammie]

Exactly.

I've looked into DVC MANY times in the past. If anything, I've decided if I was ever to join, it would have to be resale, as there is no bargain at all buying through Disney anymore.

But when looking at DVC, it has to be an apples to apples comparison, both ways.

But see you are not considering how many of us bought our points from Disney at way less, in fact over 50% less than what they cost now. In fact I bought from Disney and paid less than many resales now.

And as far as comparing it to Rack rate well of course that is the true measurement because it is the only rate you are always guaranteed to be able to get.

As to staying places cheaper, of course you can but then you can also buy a cheaper car but that does not stop people from buying a luxury car.

We still enjoy the parks but after going annually for over 30 years spending long hours in the park is not something we do anymore and therefore Fastpass+ has not diminished our enjoyment at all, in fact it has made it better for us.

 

[jade1]

But see you are not considering how many of us bought our points from Disney at way less, in fact over 50% less than what they cost now. In fact I bought from Disney and paid less than many resales now.

And as far as comparing it to Rack rate well of course that is the true measurement because it is the only rate you are always guaranteed to be able to get.

As to staying places cheaper, of course you can but then you can also buy a cheaper car but that does not stop people from buying a luxury car.

We still enjoy the parks but after going annually for over 30 years spending long hours in the park is not something we do anymore and therefore Fastpass+ has not diminished our enjoyment at all, in fact it has made it better for us.

Yep exact.

When not on points, the furthest we stray from Deluxe is S&D for location.

And it's not the kool aid either. Said many times we will hit HP in the AM, then back to SAB, FP+ eve and Fantasmic. But mostly relax and do other AM activities/choices we enjoy.

 

[DebbieB]

Just for fun, I priced a standard view room at Boardwalk Inn using the 30% off Spring Promo for the first week of June. It came out to $2287 with tax. I then calculated how many points I would need for a standard view studio at Boardwalk Villas and it was 106. I found a loaded 100 point resale for BWV at The Timeshare Store for $9302 with closing costs. Dues are $602 per month. If you assume that the rack rate nor the dues will increase (I know, fat chance) and disregard the "value of money" for ponying up nearly $10K all at once, the break even on that week in June will be part way through the 6th year. And this was an expensive contract @ $89 per point. Most of the other contracts with more points were closer to $82 per point.

I think you mean $602 per year. I'm only paying $120 per month for 250 BWV points.

 

[sonofanarchy]

Just for fun, I priced a standard view room at Boardwalk Inn using the 30% off Spring Promo for the first week of June. It came out to $2287 with tax. I then calculated how many points I would need for a standard view studio at Boardwalk Villas and it was 106. I found a loaded 100 point resale for BWV at The Timeshare Store for $9302 with closing costs. Dues are $602 per month. If you assume that the rack rate nor the dues will increase (I know, fat chance) and disregard the "value of money" for ponying up nearly $10K all at once, the break even on that week in June will be part way through the 6th year. And this was an expensive contract @ $89 per point. Most of the other contracts with more points were closer to $82 per point.

This is the way most people compare DVC with a regular room. I do it by looking how much that same studio would cost renting points.

If you're talking about needing just 100 points per year, then I agree, DVC (resale) is definitely the way to go. For our trip this summer, we rented over 500 points. The dues alone on that many points would be tough to swallow every year. More importantly, to have that many points, we'd need to finance DVC. That changes everything 10 fold.

 

[sonofanarchy]

But see you are not considering how many of us bought our points from Disney at way less, in fact over 50% less than what they cost now. In fact I bought from Disney and paid less than many resales now.

And as far as comparing it to Rack rate well of course that is the true measurement because it is the only rate you are always guaranteed to be able to get.

I agree with you on that. If we had bought DVC 20 years ago, it would have been awesome. Of course, I was 18 years old and making about $6.00 an hour.

The only reason I don't compare to rack rate is because I haven't ever paid it. I've always gotten at least a AAA rate, and for the last several years, we have rented points from DVC owners.

 

[Sammie]

I agree with you on that. If we had bought DVC 20 years ago, it would have been awesome. Of course, I was 18 years old and making about $6.00 an hour.

The only reason I don't compare to rack rate is because I haven't ever paid it. I've always gotten at least a AAA rate, and for the last several years, we have rented points from DVC owners.

Yep, you would be sitting easy now. I agree I would never pay the full Disney rate for points now. Glad you have been able to get a discount, but even AAA is not much off the cost of a 2 bedroom or grand villa. I would never have bought DVC for studios as there is not as much value there, at least to me.

Renting points is a great way to save money, but with some risk and inconvenience in that you might not always get your first choice, lack of cancellations etc.

 

[sonofanarchy]

Renting points is a great way to save money, but with some risk and inconvenience in that you might not always get your first choice, lack of cancellations etc.

Knock on wood, we've been VERY lucky. Never had a problem in either respect. We decide where we want to stay a year in advance and have several sellers that we've worked with before, so we book at the 11 month window. We pay a bit more some years than others, but we've averaged about $11 per point, so no complaints at all.

I stayed in a standard room at the Wilderness Lodge last year, and it was tough. After having stayed in a 1 bedroom villa there, you just can't compare.

 

[athumann]

I'll repeat what many others have already said. What does FP+ have to do with staying on-site or off?? If people choose to stay offsite or stay away altogether that's good for me.

I for one am excited to know I already have fastpasses for my favorites and I won't have to worry about coming back hours later or not at all if fastpasses are gone for the day. I didn't use a fastpass every single ride before so I don't see how this is going to be a negative for me at all. I get to the parks at rope drop and have rarely had to use fastpasses until late afternoon or evening anyway and the new fastpass system is allowing me to do exactly that only without as much stress.

 

[Donut23]

Who I feel really sorry for are the DVC owners who are stuck with decades of a lesser experience than what they bought into.

DITTO. X. 10

I hate it that we were right.

 

[Micca]

If Disney is losing money in ANY area, you can bet that will be corrected ASAP.
Rest assured that everything at Disney, including FP+, is designed first and foremost with profitability in mind. Reluctance to make any changes indicates that it is working, or will in the short term.

 

[wendybeth75]

It doesn't change anything for us at all. we stay on property because we love being there. FP+ has nothing to do with it.

This. I agree. We have stayed offsite, and I am sure we will again for last minute trips, but I prefer onsite every time. I didn't realize that EMH were reduced? We are going in April and it appears that there are several EMH opportunities.

 

[Davey Jones II]

I don't know all the ins and outs of DVCs, but any heavy investment in the program seems to rest on the assumption that WDW is the only place in the world worth visiting. Maybe some people don't mind going back to the same place multiple times per year, every year. But if you're a real theme park fan, I do feel you are missing out if you never visit Disneyland Resort, for example. I also keep hearing that Tokyo Disney Resort is amazing, and it is number one on my bucket list.

If you, in effect, pre-pay for dozens of vacations at WDW, how can you justify the expense of going anywhere else? This is JMO, but, to me, variety is the spice of life, and I would hate to be locked into an expensive contract that makes it prohibitive for me to go somewhere else.

 

[stampingoddess]

Who I feel really sorry for are the DVC owners who are stuck with decades of a lesser experience than what they bought into.

I've been a DVC owner since 1997. I've also been to WDW 2X since the inception of FP+ and do not believe had "a lesser experience than what bought into" Instead, I continue to value my DVC membership and continue to think it was a worthwhile purchase.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I don't know all the ins and outs of DVCs, but any heavy investment in the program seems to rest on the assumption that WDW is the only place in the world worth visiting. Maybe some people don't mind going back to the same place multiple times per year, every year. But if you're a real theme park fan, I do feel you are missing out if you never visit Disneyland Resort, for example. I also keep hearing that Tokyo Disney Resort is amazing, and it is number one on my bucket list.

If you, in effect, pre-pay for dozens of vacations at WDW, how can you justify the expense of going anywhere else? This is JMO, but, to me, variety is the spice of life, and I would hate to be locked into an expensive contract that makes it prohibitive for me to go anywhere else.

For my family, to fly and vacation overseas would cost the amount if my one original DVC contract. Out of pocket, we aren't doing Hawaii or Europe let alone Asia for less than $15,000. There are 6 of us, we have to fly and feed and house us. We went to England and France in 2004. We paid for 3 and my 2nd child was a lap baby ( under 2). We economize, stayed with friends for 3 of our 14 nights and we still paid near $5,000 for 2 weeks. (The rest of our stays were in apartments so we would have a kitchen). This included airfare, 12 nights accommodations in pounds and euros, food, eurail tix, tea at harrod's, and Disneyland Paris tix as well as a bike tour to Versailles and admission to other attractions.

When we bought DVC, we lived local. We preferred staying on site, so it made sense to us. We knew what our family size would be and we has no notions that this would be our only vacation. It was more of a getaway thing for us. We are happy with our purchasing decision. It is our "cabin in the mountains" so to speak.

But even if we didn't purchase it, the vacations you speak of would be few and far between.

And if by chance, we wanted to go to another Disney park around the world, we can use our points to help with accommodations. They won't stretch as far though. We don't feel limited. But we never purchased the contract as anything other than staying on site for reduced costs when we do go for our family of 6.

I am hoping to get a resale contract to make our points stretch a bit further. We won't get to trade outside of DVC. But that is okay given what we have it for.

For everything else, we use Hilton honors points and make we make excellent use of how we accrue and spend them.

I cannot see selling our DVC contract over a ticketing system.

Different strokes for different folks.

 

[DebbieB]

I don't know all the ins and outs of DVCs, but any heavy investment in the program seems to rest on the assumption that WDW is the only place in the world worth visiting. Maybe some people don't mind going back to the same place multiple times per year, every year. But if you're a real theme park fan, I do feel you are missing out if you never visit Disneyland Resort, for example. I also keep hearing that Tokyo Disney Resort is amazing, and it is number one on my bucket list.

If you, in effect, pre-pay for dozens of vacations at WDW, how can you justify the expense of going anywhere else? This is JMO, but, to me, variety is the spice of life, and I would hate to be locked into an expensive contract that makes it prohibitive for me to go somewhere else.

I've used DVC at DL several times. You can also use it at Tokyo, Hong Kong, Paris as part of The Disney Collection. You can use it for a Disney cruise and many other destinations. Of course, the best deal is using it for DVC resorts but you can trade out if you want something different.

I've never felt restricted because you can bank or borrow points. I've done other vacations, never had a problem justifying it. Only paying $124 a month in dues, it's not prohibitive. You also have the option of renting points if you aren't going to use them. Renting half your points would pay your dues.

 

[stampingoddess]

I don't know all the ins and outs of DVCs, but any heavy investment in the program seems to rest on the assumption that WDW is the only place in the world worth visiting. Maybe some people don't mind going back to the same place multiple times per year, every year. But if you're a real theme park fan, I do feel you are missing out if you never visit Disneyland Resort, for example. I also keep hearing that Tokyo Disney Resort is amazing, and it is number one on my bucket list.

If you, in effect, pre-pay for dozens of vacations at WDW, how can you justify the expense of going anywhere else? This is JMO, but, to me, variety is the spice of life, and I would hate to be locked into an expensive contract that makes it prohibitive for me to go somewhere else.

Not sure about others, but when we want to go elsewhere for vacation, we either bank our points or rent them out. Last year we rented our DVC points and used the rental income for a 7 cruise on Royal Caribbean.

Eventhough we are DVC members, we have traveled to Ireland, Iceland, Greece, Italy, and countless places across the USA. For our family, being DVC owners has not restricted where we are able to travel for vacation at all.