Finger printing etc

[Azune]

I realise that we are all concerned about terrorism and perhaps a disney site where I go to plan holidays and forget about the horrid world is not the best venue to vent this but Im going to !

It seems now that by the time I go to the US in October (and it is a place I love going the US rocks!) I will be photographed and fingerprinted...much like if I committed a crime.
So many people I know have decided that it isn't worth going over, the last time I had to show my passport six times when changing to take an internal flight from chicago. six times!!!!

When I finally got to Orlando, after my friends had moved on I was stopped by a security guard who asked what job I did, how much I earned and more than a few other questions that I do not think were relevant. Eventually I pointed out that I was on holiday and had been before and was looking forward to getting to my hotel, this did not stop the questions the presence of my girl friend and my friends arriving seemed to have that effect.

I want security, I want to be protected, so the queues for the metal detectors and taking off my belt, shoes and everything else metal I can just abou cope with, but being fingerprinted, the tourism in the US is going to be hit for a six!

Sorry about that ...still looking forward to Disney in Oct yippee!

Thanks
Chris

 

[rob@rar.org.uk]

By all accounts the photo/fingerprint process adds less than a minute to the immigration procedures when entering the USA. In my opinion this is a small price to pay for the extra security that could come from this.

Regards

Rob

 

[Rain]

I may be a kittle stupid here but I do not understand how fingerprinting is going to help. I was told that the US do not have acsess to UK records? What have they got to compare them too?

Maybe they are just going to compare them with known terrorists, cannot see that they are looking for someone that commited a petty crime 30 years ago.

I too would feel a bit like a criminal having fingerprints taken but if somehow it would help to deter terrorists then maybe it would be worth it!!

Perhaps someone would kindly explain how this is going to work.

 

[ALBA]

I can see both sides of the argument.

I certainly don't mind being finger printed and my picture taken as it only takes a minute or so to do.

I think what will hit the US tourist industry is the fact that from Oct, UK citizens who apply for a new passport before the biometric passports come in will no longer be able to use the visa waiver form.

From what I have read/heard so far, the only place that will issue a visa will be the US embassy in London, and you will have to turn up in person. If this is the case then a family of four travelling to the US probably won't go because, not only do you have the added expense of purchasing a visa, but the journey to london to get the item.

Alba

 

[rob@rar.org.uk]

The visa waiver programme is not being abolished, so visitors from the UK who qualify for this programme will continue to enter the USA without applying for a visa from the US Embassy.

As far as I'm aware the fingerprint scan and photo is used in a range of ways, so the fact that it (currently?) can't be verified with UK records (not that we have that kind of database) is not a problem. Eventually the US-Visit programme will require that you scan your finger/photo when you leave, so the US Immigration services is better able to check that you have left the country when you should have. Also, all passports will eventually carry this biometric information so there will be the possibility of checking to make sure that the details match. Finally, if visitors to the USA do outstay their welcome the authorities will now have fingerprints and a recent photo available to them to help locate 'illegal aliens'.

It's a shame that the state of world affairs means that arrangements of this kind are considered necessary, but I don't think that they place an unreasonable burdon on us when we travel to the USA. I wonder how long before the UK considers such arrangements necessary...?

Regards

Rob

 

[KayleeUK]

I don't think anything would stop me going

 

[kazzie]

I don't think Chris's point is that the photo/fingerprinting takes only minutes.

Chris if it wasn't that I wanted to go to Orlando so much I would go elsewhere on principle (obviously my principles are over ridden here!!) I defintley believe people will stop travelling to the US and I can understand why.

There was something in the travel section of Saturdays Telegraph on this subject and many many people said they would no longer travel to the US after various experiences they had had.One middle aged couple were taken into an interview room and asked in an interview why they had holidayed in the US so many times!


A terrorist with a criminal record is not going to travel on their own passport for goodness sake or risk travelling to US at all.The 9/11 terrorists did not have a criminal record between them.

 

[Grumpy John]

As Rob said it is only going to take a few minutes and once it is done will not have to done again. I have nothing to hide so am not bothered when I go in October. Nothing will stop me holidaying in the US.

Surely anything that stops these nutters is a step in the right direction. If they want to bomb why not blow their own kind up and leave hardworking, innocent human beings alone to enjoy their hard earned cash.

Same attitude seems to exist with the introduction of ID cards in the UK. If you have nothing to hide why object to it!

 

[rob@rar.org.uk]

Increased security is going to be a factor in many aspects of our lives for the foreseeable future. I'm sure that none of us welcome this, but there's nothing we can do about it. If my contribution to world security is to not complain when Immigration queues take an extra 15 minutes, or to accept with good grace the occasional intrusive question about why I'm travelling then I think that's the not asking too much of me. I would much rather that my ability to travel was not impeded by minor infringements of my civil liberties, but that's not the world that we live in any more.

Karen, surely your point that none of the 9/11 attackers had criminal records just underlines why we need to ask questions of even the most unlikely people? And would you happily travel as a point of principal to another country which didn't take their national security seriously?

Regards

Rob

 

[Azune]

Open discussions like these on the boards are what makes being a part of an online community so good I welcome everyones comments.
To further one of the points made by ALBA concerninf the visa issue I have actually emailed the relevant government link provided for us normal bods to ask questions.

The report on the BBC web site did seem to indicate that each perosn that enter the US would have to apply for a visa that would cost 67 pounds per person and that one wouold have to apply in person to the US embassy in London. It stressed that this may not happen yet but it was on the cards as as the US government pointed out that in many countries people require visas to travel to different countries already. Hopefully this was an idea that was floated as a replacement to the VISA waiver system and will be dropped once everyone who lives in Scotland etc, doesn't want to spent a day travelling to london to get a visa.
I agree that many countries have laws to this effect but in this country and the states this would prove unfeasible all of the holiday companies online and the whole idea of late deals would disappear overnight.

I say again I love America I have been all over it and think it is a great place, I have defended americans against all my friends....but I have often found that because I am a young (ish) man who is often travelling with a group of friends we are often made to feel quite worried when we enter the states anyway. The officiers are often very intimidating and these additional measures are going to make it even worse. I travel alot and I have never found any other country to be as unpleasant at customs as the US guards. Shame really because we are there to really let our hair down and enjoy ourselves!
Still its still disney so I will keep going!
Best Regards
Chris

 

[rob@rar.org.uk]

Originally posted by Azune
The report on the BBC web site did seem to indicate that each perosn that enter the US would have to apply for a visa that would cost 67 pounds per person and that one wouold have to apply in person to the US embassy in London.

Chris, I think you'll find that the BBC website was wrong on this. The Visa Waiver Programme is not being changed. It is a permanent feature as a result of a law passed in October 2000 which allows eligible citizens from 27 countries to enter the USA without having to apply for a visa.

The change announced by the US Government on 2 April relates to the US-VISIT programme only, and not the Visa Waiver Programme. All it means is that everyone, including those people who enter via the Visa Waiver programme, will have to provide biometric info (photo & fingerprint) when they enter the US. Previously the US Government had said that if you were eligible for the Visa Waiver Programme you would not have to provide the biometric info, but because a number of countries (including the UK) are not yet ready to issue biometric passports the US Government has changed its mind. Confirmation of this was posted today on the UK Passport Agency website here.

Regards

Rob

 

[Azune]

I think the BBC site had basically got confused over the requirements if people did not have MRP for when they went over to the states after the 26th October 2004.
Well thats good then means I am fine!
Still think that international terrorists are going to be able to enter the US especially if its there first offense but maybe some of these measures may catch people who have outstayed the 90 days or something. You never know.

 

[ALBA]

Azune, good good idea about asking the question directly.

I looked at Rob's link to the UK Passport Agency and from the link in the section marked requirements for machine readable passports I found the following item which I think explains what I was trying to get at but in a better fashion:-

Our understanding of the effect of the US requirements as they currently stand is:

Machine Readable Passports (i.e. the current type of British passport) issued up to and including 25 October 2004 are valid for visa-free travel to the US until the passport expires.

Machine Readable Passports, issued from 26 October 2004 onwards will need a visa attached by the US Embassy to permit travel to the USA.

Biometric Machine Readable Passports, available from mid 2005 are valid for visa-free travel to the US.

The UKPS has presented its biometric passport plans to the US to support the UK’s continued participation in the US visa waiver programme and the Foreign & Commonwealth Office is in close consultation with the US on biometrics. The FCO is negotiating with the US about their proposed timetable on the requirement for biometric passports for entry to the US to minimise the effect of these changes on legitimate British travellers. It is too early to say where these consultations will lead.
For further information, click on the links to FCO and US Embassy websites.
Date published: Friday 9th January 2004

Don't know if that helps or confuses issues more

Alba

 

[SimonV]

As I have a US Visa (for my travel writing work), I have had to use the finger-print process for the last few visits and it is really nothing to worry about. It is quick and totally painless (!), involving placing first your LEFT index finger on a photographic glass plate, then your RIGHT (you must get the order correct!), and then looking into their (small) camera for a photo. Each one takes less than a minute and, while that will obviously add up to several minutes' delay in each line at each immigration desk, I'm hopeful it won't slow things down too much. The extra security does seem like overkill at times (especially the security screening after you LAND at MCO), but as Rob says, we are living in different times these days and it is something we are going to have to get used to, and not just in the US, I think.

 

[AlexE]

on a lighter note!

If you have an Disney annual pass Disney already have your first two finger prints - so big brother already has some of the information anyway.

Had no problems there and do not envisage problems at immigration. A fingerprint and photograph (which we have taken many times during our holiday anyway) is a really small price to pay for our own security.

Alex E

 

[MickeyMcMouse]

Originally posted by rob@rar.org.uk
I wonder how long before the UK considers such arrangements necessary...?

Regards

Rob

Rob, it's probably not that far away. For the first time ever, our passports were scanned through a machine coming back into Gatwick a couple of weeks ago.

(Instead of the usual glance at them)

regards

David

 

[vernon]

Rob said

Karen, surely your point that none of the 9/11 attackers had criminal records just underlines why we need to ask questions of even the most unlikely people? And would you happily travel as a point of principal to another country which didn't take their national security seriously?

The point is whats the point of asking questions of the most unlikely people if those questions would not have highlighted people who were not in that "unlikely" catagory. Finger printing would not have flagged up the 9/11 bombers. I'm all for effective measures, but these would not have been effective for 9/11 and will not be effective for any future terrorists. Anyone wishing to enter the US to commit such acts will simply fly to Mexico, Canada or any Caribbean country then make their way by foot,illegal truck or boat into the US and then use forged American documentation ( that is not as demanding in it's information or expertise) to travel domestically. Stable doors and bolted horses spring to mind. IMHO this is all about being seen to be doing something and the current American administration (with an upcoming election) doesn't want to inconvenience the American public, but doesn't mind upsetting tourists (they don't vote) while feeding into the xenophobia that's breeding in smalltown USA.
IMHO it's about votes not security.
These measures are unlikely to catch suicide bombers on their second offence

By all accounts the photo/fingerprint process adds less than a minute to the immigration procedures when entering the USA. In my opinion this is a small price to pay for the extra security that could come from this.

As I've never been behind less than 20 people and often been behind up to 70-80 when coming through immigration I expect this futile measure will add anywhere between 30 minutes and an hour to get through immigration. I hope the airlines take this into account when planning for connecting flights as otherwise there are going to be a lot of people missing their connections.

There are a lot more constructive and effective things that could be done to increase security, but they won't be done because they will inconvenience Americans travelling domestically. It was afterall, lets not forget, on domestic flights that the deeds of 9/11 were performed.

 

[Grumpy John]

Let me guess Vernon, you are against ID cards in the UK as well!

 

[rob@rar.org.uk]

I agree Vernon that by themselves, and with regard to terrorism only, these measures are not much more than window dressing. I think it's the same as the cursory "bag searches" that now seem to happen when entering Disney theme parks - completely ineffectual in terms of increasing security, but does proivde a fig leaf behind which Disney's lawyers presumbably would hide if something terrible were to happen. But I don't think the US-VISIT procedures are the only security measures which are being put in place, and they have other purposes in the area of immigration. The biometric info is harder to forge than standard ID documents, so this makes it easier to check people entering the USA against watch-lists, etc. I don't think there is any one measure that will ensure terrorist action doesn't take place, but a succession of smaller hurdles that potential terrorists must cross will help avoid the kinds of things we're seeing in Spain right now.

The collection of biometric info has been implemented in the last few months for all but 27 countries, and I'm not aware of any horror stories of major delays in entering the US. I think that collecting biometric info will provide some help in increasing security, so I'm prepared to put up with a bit of extra delay when arriving in Orlando. After all, if I'm prepared to queue for 90 minutes to ride a new attraction like The Mummy, surely an extra 15 minutes at Orlando airport isn't going to be too much to bear?

Regards

Rob

 

[Penny12]

If there's even a .01% less chance of getting smashed to little pieces as a result then I'm more than happy to stand in line for an extra few minutes more....