Fantasyland & Avatar "blown" / compared to WWOHP (Really)? + Star Wars Land thoughts

[jtwibih]

Just curious, who here that actually likes Star Wars and Harry Potter, and goes to both US and Disney, have any confidence that Disney will pull off anything as good as US did with HP with Star Wars? Also, I've never met one person in real life that loves Star Wars and hates or is naive about Harry Potter. Usually the SciFi/Fantasy fans love all the classics that are well done, Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, and Harry Potter. No one knows what these franchises will look like over the next decade, but if you look at the past decade, HP dominated Star Wars. Wasn't even close. And while I am definitely a SW fan over HP, if someone told me a new SW was coming out next summer side by side with a new HP, and to bet on which would have the bigger box office, I would bet on HP. Although I think it would be close and if given odds I would take SW! That said, just taking a snap shot today, I definitely think SW is the bigger franchise, primarily due to what it does with cartoons, games, and toys, are quite far beyond what HP has done. But they are in the same weight class, its not a heavyweight vs a lightweight here.

I think I share your fear too. Looking at NFL and how much hype it had, I am just not impressed. And look how long it took! Makes you wonder if we will get a completed SW land within the next 6-8 years. And what will it be like? Cars Land in DL is pretty cool and I am not a fan of the movies so there's hope there. They could really knock this out of the park if they really sit down and try. I agree about HP. At this moment WDW has their work cut out for them.

 

[wallrock]

Just curious, who here that actually likes Star Wars and Harry Potter, and goes to both US and Disney, have any confidence that Disney will pull off anything as good as US did with HP with Star Wars?

Also, I've never met one person in real life that loves Star Wars and hates or is naive about Harry Potter. Usually the SciFi/Fantasy fans love all the classics that are well done, Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, and Harry Potter. No one knows what these franchises will look like over the next decade, but if you look at the past decade, HP dominated Star Wars. Wasn't even close. And while I am definitely a SW fan over HP, if someone told me a new SW was coming out next summer side by side with a new HP, and to bet on which would have the bigger box office, I would bet on HP. Although I think it would be close and if given odds I would take SW!

That said, just taking a snap shot today, I definitely think SW is the bigger franchise, primarily due to what it does with cartoons, games, and toys, are quite far beyond what HP has done. But they are in the same weight class, its not a heavyweight vs a lightweight here.

I'm not confident that they will, however I'm more than confident that they can.

On the topic of the article, as someone mentioned earlier this is nothing more than Iger dangling yet another carrot in front of everyone.

 

[ahoyle]

I'm not confident that they will, however I'm more than confident that they can.

On the topic of the article, as someone mentioned earlier this is nothing more than Iger dangling yet another carrot in front of everyone.

I agree with that, they can. Assuming they have the talent, money, and resources committed to this. One of the big faults Disney has with their slow construction process (besides making us all impatient), is that it builds expectations. I mean after hearing about Pandora and seeing it built for six years, what if its only ok? Meanwhile across town, Universal announces something about a year or two out, and before its open they are already building something else. If its only ok, fine, something else will be there in a year or two. Plus I didnt spend the past half decade anticipating it and analyzing it.

 

[Muddypaws]

My DH (who isn't close to 60) is a SW fanatic. I love HP and was absolutely blown away with Hogwarts at Universal. My heart still does little pitter-pats with excitement at having the book come to life each time we have been there. But until Disney quits just TALKING and actually does some building (on something other than a gift shop or restaurant) the argument is moot. My faith in Disney would go a long way to being restored if we could see some money and, more importantly, imagination invested in SW at the World. The fact that we don't know if it is even coming much at all to Orlando is not doing much to give me the warm fuzzies right now.

Believe me, I would really love Disney to win this one. Recent past history, though, does not give me a lot of hope they will. At least in my lifetime if it takes as long as Fantasyland to complete.

 

[Muddypaws]

I agree with that, they can. Assuming they have the talent, money, and resources committed to this. One of the big faults Disney has with their slow construction process (besides making us all impatient), is that it builds expectations.

I would really like to know the motivation behind having the construction at Fantasyland take so long. I can only surmise that the drawn-out process was deliberate since we have seen Universal go from concept to gate-revenue pretty quickly on big projects. If the goal was to build excitement then for me it really failed. Seeing the walls up for so long just made me question their planning, commitment and competence. I never really bought their excuse that it was the attention to detail that was taking all the time. Most of that can be solved by hiring more people to work on it.

 

[wallrock]

I agree with that, they can. Assuming they have the talent, money, and resources committed to this. One of the big faults Disney has with their slow construction process (besides making us all impatient), is that it builds expectations. I mean after hearing about Pandora and seeing it built for six years, what if its only ok? Meanwhile across town, Universal announces something about a year or two out, and before its open they are already building something else. If its only ok, fine, something else will be there in a year or two. Plus I didnt spend the past half decade anticipating it and analyzing it.

Totally agree here. Given that modern technology keeps us informed on an 'up to the minute' basis I do tend to think that fans can react either positively or negatively to the constant flow of information and, more importantly, rumors. It only gets more frenzied the longer it takes to get the product/attraction up and running.

 

[wallrock]

I would really like to know the motivation behind having the construction at Fantasyland take so long. I can only surmise that the drawn-out process was deliberate since we have seen Universal go from concept to gate-revenue pretty quickly on big projects. If the goal was to build excitement then for me it really failed. Seeing the walls up for so long just made me question their planning, commitment and competence. I never really bought their excuse that it was the attention to detail that was taking all the time. Most of that can be solved by hiring more people to work on it.

In a nutshell, money.

Cheaper to drag it out.

 

[HoneymoonandBEYOND]

I actually read something on another site not too long ago on this subject:

http://www.downwiththemouse.com/2014/07/blog-is-avatar-land-disneys-answer-to.html

I personally feel that the dislike for Avatar Land is overblown. It isn't suppose to be the competitor to WWoHP imo.

Star Wars Land will be their "shots fired" moment.

I will say that even though I am not the biggest fan of Avatar I am certainly looking forward to seeing what Pandora will look like after Disney designs it

 

[sndral]

Harry Potter is limited in scope in the sense that the characters inhabit one time/place/land.
Pandora likewise is limited in scope as it's one planet.
Between the two Pandora is a far more visually beautiful magical place to me.
However, no matter how aesthetically stimulating a setting is, there needs to be a story and from all I've read of Pandora land of Avatar I'm not getting a sense of a story. I fear that the promised Banshee ride will be the massive 4 Soarin like IMAX theaters viewed through 3D glasses - hardly the image seen in the film of riding individual Banshees. I hope they at least manage to create a ride were I don't see feet dangling a la Soarin. I have more hope for the immersive water ride as I love POTC and Splash. But neither 'ride' sounds particularly innovative or impressive it seems like they are just replicating existing attractions w/ Pandora theming and that doesn't always work - compare Indy in DL w/ Dinosaur.
Regarding Star Wars at least they are not limited to one place/planet - so there's more potential to grow. But why start w/ Tatooine? It's hardly the most attractive planet, and not a tree in sight on that planet and IMO DHS needs more shade as it is. @ least the Endor speeder bike 3d simulator w/ Cave technology attraction might be interesting and the X wing fighter spinner ride will be something for kids in that area - if the rumors of what they intend to do are true.

 

[Yellowstonetim]

Harry Potter is limited in scope in the sense that the characters inhabit one time/place/land.
Pandora likewise is limited in scope as it's one planet.
Between the two Pandora is a far more visually beautiful magical place to me.
However, no matter how aesthetically stimulating a setting is, there needs to be a story and from all I've read of Pandora land of Avatar I'm not getting a sense of a story. I fear that the promised Banshee ride will be the massive 4 Soarin like IMAX theaters viewed through 3D glasses - hardly the image seen in the film of riding individual Banshees. I hope they at least manage to create a ride were I don't see feet dangling a la Soarin. I have more hope for the immersive water ride as I love POTC and Splash. But neither 'ride' sounds particularly innovative or impressive it seems like they are just replicating existing attractions w/ Pandora theming and that doesn't always work - compare Indy in DL w/ Dinosaur.
Regarding Star Wars at least they are not limited to one place/planet - so there's more potential to grow. But why start w/ Tatooine? It's hardly the most attractive planet, and not a tree in sight on that planet and IMO DHS needs more shade as it is. @ least the Endor speeder bike 3d simulator w/ Cave technology attraction might be interesting and the X wing fighter spinner ride will be something for kids in that area - if the rumors of what they intend to do are true.

HP and Pandora are different in other ways. Harry Potter could have some additional creatures and storylines, but it is set in a particular timeframe and setting. That is the type of dwellings and such. Pandora on the other hand is a fictional planet that has yet to be explored. The seas and other places can yield whatever the imagination of James Cameron and Disney choose to dream up. That leaves a lot of room. And in this fictional world, there could be moons and other planets. Now HP could find a way to travel elsewhere, too, but it would be away from what people love and find familiar. Pandora has a lot more freedom.

However, I do agree about Star Wars. It is a vast universe that already contains unique and varied planets that are both different yet familiar to SW fans. The universe has been in existence for decades with much to draw from AND has an unlimited future! Nothing can compare to SW as far as cultural standing and possibilities! It isn't that it is better than HP or Pandora, it is that Star Wars is all alone in its own level of fictional cultural standing.

As far as story goes, it is important, but the story can be simple. Some of the best rides have very simple stories.

 

[Suger Mag]

I actually read something on another site not too long ago on this subject:

http://www.downwiththemouse.com/2014/07/blog-is-avatar-land-disneys-answer-to.html

I personally feel that the dislike for Avatar Land is overblown. It isn't suppose to be the competitor to WWoHP imo.

Star Wars Land will be their "shots fired" moment.

I will say that even though I am not the biggest fan of Avatar I am certainly looking forward to seeing what Pandora will look like after Disney designs it

Good perspective that I personally agree with. Pandora was not a response to HP... it was a response to AK. I don't get the hate for the Pandora exspansion, and I am looking forward to seeing it completed and think it will be stunning and a great fit for AK

But I think the some of the distaste for Pandora comes becuase its purchase timing. The Pandora purchase/development was announced shortly before the purchase of Lucas Arts (some have suggested that the Pandora purchase was in part to goad Lucas into selling. There is a cohort of SW fans that will only be satisfied by adding in Star Wars... anything else to them is wasting time: Put Star Wars at MK... Star Wars at AK... Star Wars at Epcot... Star Wars at Studios. I wonder sometimes if their rabid fandom will ever be satisfied.

For a site that is about loving the Mouse, sometimes it seems folks on the DIS live/love to complain ...

Nothing new is ever added... wait they are adding something... Avatar... I hate it... it is not Star Wars... wait they are adding Star Wars... Oh man, it is not what I would have chosen... I wanted the podracers/Bobafet's summer home/ Jabba's lair.

I am looking forward to all exspansions:

Disney Springs, Pandora, and what I feel (and hope) is inevitable... Star Wars at Hollywood Studios.

 

[dinolounger]

from all I've read of Pandora land of Avatar I'm not getting a sense of a story.

The above defines the core Achille's heel of the Pandora project. What is the compelling story of this film?

There isn't one.

The supporters of Avatar-land never address this. Never. They just spin discussion off onto a tangent about the "message" of Avatar (not the story, since there isn't one) being "environmentalism."

And "environmentalism" isn't a message, it's an agenda.

And agendas don't make for great theme park attractions. Yes, bring it on, I can't wait to hear about how the "agenda" experience of "Living With the Land" makes it someone's favorite WDW attraction.

 

[wallrock]

But I think the some of the distaste for Pandora comes becuase its purchase timing. The Pandora purchase/development was announced shortly before the purchase of Lucas Arts (some have suggested that the Pandora purchase was in part to goad Lucas into selling. There is a cohort of SW fans that will only be satisfied by adding in Star Wars... anything else to them is wasting time: Put Star Wars at MK... Star Wars at AK... Star Wars at Epcot... Star Wars at Studios. I wonder sometimes if their rabid fandom will ever be satisfied.

I'm going to disagree with this.

The acquisition of LucasArts has been years in the making. The public announcement of the purchase happened after the announcement of Avatar coming in. In short, when Disney sat down with James Cameron and company they knew the Star Wars universe was coming their way. It also fuels my speculation that the buildout of Star Wars in Orlando isn't going to be as big as some think.

Personally I think the only reason Avatar is coming in is because Cameron and 20th Century Fox are forking over the bill to construct it.

 

[ST1TCH]

I'm surprised that Marvel hasn't come up in this discussion. All the Marvel characters, especially those in the new Marvel films, are ripe for attractions and rides. Marvel isn't stopping these films anytime soon either so it's going to be hugely popular for quite a while. I would argue just as big as HP. I know right now Universal has a couple of Marvel rides, but now that Disney owns the company, certainly they should consider capitalizing on the popularity of Iron Man, Avengers, etc.

Personally, I think HP will not last like Star Wars has. 20 years from now, it will just be a series of books and movies. Rowling has said she's done with that world so we'll never get more stories or movies about the goings on at Hogwarts, etc. The stories and material have ended.

I think Disney would be best served with an overhaul of DHS and focus on their big 3 tentpoles (aside from Disney itself which is served well with MK) of Marvel, Pixar and Lucasfilm. Expand DHS as much as possible and feature some truly awesome rollercoasters and thrill rides themed on those properties. This would do wonders to reach out to the teens and tweens that are underserved now in WDW and tend to head to US and IOA. Give us a Pixar land, Marvel land and Star Wars land.

As far as the Avatar land at AK, I'm not sold on it as the movie wasn't awesome to me, but I know that Cameron is working on 2-3 more films so it remains to be seen where he's headed with it. He's a great director and visionary so I'll wait to see what it's like before I deem it a flop or waste.

And for the comments about Disney's track record on building projects, they do put out a world class product but I agree it needs to be sped up. I have to think with the acquisitions of Marvel and Lucasfilm that Imagineers are already hard at work behind the scenes at planning things out and hopefully they can improve their track record at making it reality.

I have a feeling the Star Wars plans might be held up right now because they want to see the world that JJ Abrams puts out so they can incorporate it.

 

[quikah]

I'm surprised that Marvel hasn't come up in this discussion. All the Marvel characters, especially those in the new Marvel films, are ripe for attractions and rides. Marvel isn't stopping these films anytime soon either so it's going to be hugely popular for quite a while. I would argue just as big as HP. I know right now Universal has a couple of Marvel rides, but now that Disney owns the company, certainly they should consider capitalizing on the popularity of Iron Man, Avengers, etc.

Universal has theme park rights to a large number of Marvel characters East of the Mississippi in perpetuity. Disney cannot do anything with them in WDW. They CAN use Guardians of the Galaxy I believe, not clear how much staying power that franchise will have though. They have free reign everywhere else

Personally, I think HP will not last like Star Wars has. 20 years from now, it will just be a series of books and movies. Rowling has said she's done with that world so we'll never get more stories or movies about the goings on at Hogwarts, etc. The stories and material have ended.

A spinoff trilogy has already been announced (prequel, based on "Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them"). Rowling is reportedly writing the script for the first film.

 

[ST1TCH]

quikah -

I guess I stand corrected on both Marvel rights and HP future. Thanks for the info.

Marvel short sightedness prior to Marvel Entertainment rears it's ugly head again. Just like the agreements they made with Sony for Spider-Man and Fox for X-Men. Now those properties can never be used in the new Marvel Entertainment films.

Not sure I can see those HP spin offs doing as well since they won't focus on what made the original films popular. I'm sure there's an audience for it though.

 

[Yellowstonetim]

The above defines the core Achille's heel of the Pandora project. What is the compelling story of this film?

There isn't one.

The supporters of Avatar-land never address this. Never. They just spin discussion off onto a tangent about the "message" of Avatar (not the story, since there isn't one) being "environmentalism."

And "environmentalism" isn't a message, it's an agenda.

And agendas don't make for great theme park attractions. Yes, bring it on, I can't wait to hear about how the "agenda" experience of "Living With the Land" makes it someone's favorite WDW attraction.

What is the big deal about compelling story!? And story and Pandora has been addressed ad nauseam. Many ignore what they don't agree with or understand. Most lands have no story at all, just a theme and setting. Some rides have no story, most rides have very minimal stories, and those that have any real major story, it can be stated in one sentence! What is the "story" behind Test Track, Mission Space, Rockin' Rollercoaster, Splash Mountain? Not much. A very thin framework of story to make a ride. Even those with more in depth stories like Star Tours and Tower of Terror are minimal. Star Tours - You are on a tour and it goes wrong and visits different Star Wars places/events. Tower of Terror - A few people were killed in an elevator in old hotel, Twilight Zone, and elevator goes wild.

More important than a cohesive story is a recognizable setting, theme, and very simple storyline.

Pandora will have those in spades. Perfect for a land and several rides. Amazing, unique, but recognizable setting, good theme - Nature of Pandora. And the story is very simple, perfect for Animal Kingdom, and perfect for our culture today. It can be found in so many movies: We need to protect nature's unique places, cultures, and creatures from the bad guys that would exploit and destroy them. Dances with Wolves with smurfs and nature.

While some turn taking care of nature into politics and extreme positions, pretty much everyone thinks we should take care of the planet. Perfect for Animal Kingdom.

Some can't see the forest for hating the trees. I think people dislike Avatar and Disney so much, they cannot see the obvious fit this project is with Animal Kingdom. Pandora, with a really cool place to walk through, one major and another minor ride, coupled with AK nighttime entertainment and safari is going to turn Animal Kingdom into a first rate all day park that will skyrocket in attendance.

It's going to be good.

I don't know how long it will take, but Pandora at AK, Star Wars at HS, a few updates at Epcot, and Disney World is going to be rocking records in attendance and profits never seen before. The only question will be how long. (The later statement will probably spark much wailing and gnashing of teeth.) I can be patient. It will come and it will be good.

 

[wallrock]

What is the big deal about compelling story!? And story and Pandora has been addressed ad nauseam. Many ignore what they don't agree with or understand. Most lands have no story at all, just a theme and setting. Some rides have no story, most rides have very minimal stories, and those that have any real major story, it can be stated in one sentence! What is the "story" behind Test Track, Mission Space, Rockin' Rollercoaster, Splash Mountain? Not much. A very thin framework of story to make a ride. Even those with more in depth stories like Star Tours and Tower of Terror are minimal. Star Tours - You are on a tour and it goes wrong and visits different Star Wars places/events. Tower of Terror - A few people were killed in an elevator in old hotel, Twilight Zone, and elevator goes wild.

More important than a cohesive story is a recognizable setting, theme, and very simple storyline.

Pandora will have those in spades. Perfect for a land and several rides. Amazing, unique, but recognizable setting, good theme - Nature of Pandora. And the story is very simple, perfect for Animal Kingdom, and perfect for our culture today. It can be found in so many movies: We need to protect nature's unique places, cultures, and creatures from the bad guys that would exploit and destroy them. Dances with Wolves with smurfs and nature.

While some turn taking care of nature into politics and extreme positions, pretty much everyone thinks we should take care of the planet. Perfect for Animal Kingdom.

Some can't see the forest for hating the trees. I think people dislike Avatar and Disney so much, they cannot see the obvious fit this project is with Animal Kingdom. Pandora, with a really cool place to walk through, one major and another minor ride, coupled with AK nighttime entertainment and safari is going to turn Animal Kingdom into a first rate all day park that will skyrocket in attendance.

It's going to be good.

I don't know how long it will take, but Pandora at AK, Star Wars at HS, a few updates at Epcot, and Disney World is going to be rocking records in attendance and profits never seen before. The only question will be how long. (The later statement will probably spark much wailing and gnashing of teeth.) I can be patient. It will come and it will be good.

While I'm indifferent on Avatar coming into the parks, and I liked the film, I don't think that it belongs in Animal Kingdom. Yes it possesses an environmental message, but that message would be better presented with something that isn't fiction. I would have much preferred something along the lines of a South America section of the park. That way if the suits insisted on infusing film elements they could have pulled from the movie 'Up'.

Personally Avatar should have gone into Hollywood Studios.

 

[Yellowstonetim]

While I'm indifferent on Avatar coming into the parks, and I liked the film, I don't think that it belongs in Animal Kingdom. Yes it possesses an environmental message, but that message would be better presented with something that isn't fiction. I would have much preferred something along the lines of a South America section of the park. That way if the suits insisted on infusing film elements they could have pulled from the movie 'Up'.

Personally Avatar should have gone into Hollywood Studios.

Understood, like you I would love a park with nothing but non-fiction animals and stuff, but unfortunately most people don't. Disney understood this and specifically intended to include a fictional section to Animal Kingdom from the very beginning. If you look at the symbol for AK it bears the image of several animals, including a dragon. They were originally going to do a Beastly Kingdom but it never was completed.

I think a fictional land of imagination fits, as long as it is about nature and animals. We'll see what they do and how it fits.

 

[dinolounger]

What is the big deal about compelling story!?

Two words engagement and immersion.

pretty much everyone thinks we should take care of the planet. Perfect for Animal Kingdom.

Just like clockwork, the fallback environmental tangent!

I don't know how long it will take

Given recent Disney performance and the glacial pace of Cameron, a lot, lot longer than most realize.