Fantasyland & Avatar "blown" / compared to WWOHP (Really)? + Star Wars Land thoughts

[beer dave]

Apparently not only is the glass half empty, it is leaking and resting half off the edge of the counter top.

Although I do have to say, with all the time I spend reading the opinions here, I do see where the glass could be 3/4 empty, and Iger has just dipped his crazy straw in.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Apparently not only is the glass half empty, it is leaking and resting half off the edge of the counter top.

???

Do elaborate

 

[beer dave]

???

Do elaborate

Since your quote, I added a bit to my post, but just an overview of differing opinions-- I do see the point that all of you are making with the direction things are going, but still have hope for a turn around, or that things are not actually as bad as a lot of you think they are.

I try to stay on the optimistic side of everything, so this falls in that category. I do think that Cameron's personality will make the project better as opposed to worse by pushing for perfection. The depth you guys get to in these discussions leave me behind a bit,( and I enjoy all the input) but my opinion remains the same.

So my elaboration is that it seems that no matter what occurs, or is predicted to occur, or has occurred, will be reflected with a negative perspective.

I hold to that this is all due to all of our personal over exposure to the World.

 

[wallrock]

Since your quote, I added a bit to my post, but just an overview of differing opinions-- I do see the point that all of you are making with the direction things are going, but still have hope for a turn around, or that things are not actually as bad as a lot of you think they are.

I try to stay on the optimistic side of everything, so this falls in that category. I do think that Cameron's personality will make the project better as opposed to worse by pushing for perfection. The depth you guys get to in these discussions leave me behind a bit,( and I enjoy all the input) but my opinion remains the same.

So my elaboration is that it seems that no matter what occurs, or is predicted to occur, or has occurred, will be reflected with a negative perspective.

I hold to that this is all due to all of our personal over exposure to the World.

I think you're missing the point on most of the crowd here who remain guarded (I'll use that instead of 'negative'). We want things to turn around as much as you do, but as has been stated before recent behavior shows an opposite trend.

Yes, Cameron's talents and desire for perfection can go a long way in making an excellent attraction. The problem here is that you have two alphas sitting at the table and oftentimes that leads to conflict. If memory serves, that's one of the reasons that Rowling went to Universal with Harry Potter. She started out with Disney but they wanted to control the show. With Cameron, one side is going to have to check their ego at the door, and if the rumors are true that there's some conflict it's probably because they're arguing over who's going to check. Time will tell whether that results in something spectacular or bland for everyone to see, however we shouldn't default to "it's going to be great" because that leads to false expectations. There's always going to be two camps on this approach but hopefully you can see why some of us remain cautious.

Overexposure is indeed a segment of the problem, and Disney isn't helping the situation by dangling the carrot in front of everyone for years on end. The addition of Avatar was announced over three years ago. Some believe the time spent thus far has been to develop something new and out of this world. That may be the case, but if so why not wait until that new technology (if that's what it is) is developed then make the announcement? If things don't work out as hoped, whether it be pushing the technology threshold or arguments amongst the alphas, then you're stuck with either backtracking or serving up something mediocre and hope people still applaud. Guests and fans were overexposed to New Fantasyland, especially the Mine Train, and weren't exactly overwhelmed when it finally opened. In that scenario if you want to build something, make the statement and just go do it. You own the zoning, you can control the pace of construction and you're not reinventing the wheel so why drag it out? Obviously it's a cost-saving measure but sometimes that strategy can backfire a bit. The absence of the details on construction in Hollywood Studios may be an indication of a change in the thought process by management to go away from that carrot but who knows.

 

[Suger Mag]

I think you're missing the point on most of the crowd here who remain guarded (I'll use that instead of 'negative'). We want things to turn around as much as you do, but as has been stated before recent behavior shows an opposite trend.

Yes, Cameron's talents and desire for perfection can go a long way in making an excellent attraction. The problem here is that you have two alphas sitting at the table and oftentimes that leads to conflict. If memory serves, that's one of the reasons that Rowling went to Universal with Harry Potter. She started out with Disney but they wanted to control the show. With Cameron, one side is going to have to check their ego at the door, and if the rumors are true that there's some conflict it's probably because they're arguing over who's going to check. Time will tell whether that results in something spectacular or bland for everyone to see, however we shouldn't default to "it's going to be great" because that leads to false expectations. There's always going to be two camps on this approach but hopefully you can see why some of us remain cautious.

Overexposure is indeed a segment of the problem, and Disney isn't helping the situation by dangling the carrot in front of everyone for years on end. The addition of Avatar was announced over three years ago. Some believe the time spent thus far has been to develop something new and out of this world. That may be the case, but if so why not wait until that new technology (if that's what it is) is developed then make the announcement? If things don't work out as hoped, whether it be pushing the technology threshold or arguments amongst the alphas, then you're stuck with either backtracking or serving up something mediocre and hope people still applaud. Guests and fans were overexposed to New Fantasyland, especially the Mine Train, and weren't exactly overwhelmed when it finally opened. In that scenario if you want to build something, make the statement and just go do it. You own the zoning, you can control the pace of construction and you're not reinventing the wheel so why drag it out? Obviously it's a cost-saving measure but sometimes that strategy can backfire a bit. The absence of the details on construction in Hollywood Studios may be an indication of a change in the thought process by management to go away from that carrot but who knows.

Wow... if all this discussion has just been 'guarded'... I would really hate to see the posts that meet your defination of actual negativity... and I do not direct this just at Wallrock, but overall on the RUmors and News section in general.

I personally don't care about announcements, or the timing of announcements. talk is cheap. I do trust the shovels and they are out and moving stuff around at AK. Maybe it will suck, maybe it will be mediocre, maybe it will be awesome... time will tell. But I would be willing to bet money that even if mind blowing stuff gets put in Pandora-AK, there will still be complaining.

I agree with BeerDave.

 

[wallrock]

Wow... if all this discussion has just been 'guarded'... I would really hate to see the posts that meet your defination of actual negativity... and I do not direct this just at Wallrock, but overall on the RUmors and News section in general.

I personally don't care about announcements, or the timing of announcements. talk is cheap. I do trust the shovels and they are out and moving stuff around at AK. Maybe it will suck, maybe it will be mediocre, maybe it will be awesome... time will tell. But I would be willing to bet money that even if mind blowing stuff gets put in Pandora-AK, there will still be complaining.

I agree with BeerDave.

I find it ironic that your comments of 'talk is cheap', 'don't care about announcements' and 'trusting the shovels' is more or less the mantra of the guarded camp yet you seem to be opposed to those opinions and declare them negative.

 

[beer dave]

I think you're missing the point on most of the crowd here who remain guarded (I'll use that instead of 'negative'). We want things to turn around as much as you do, but as has been stated before recent behavior shows an opposite trend.

Yes, Cameron's talents and desire for perfection can go a long way in making an excellent attraction. The problem here is that you have two alphas sitting at the table and oftentimes that leads to conflict. If memory serves, that's one of the reasons that Rowling went to Universal with Harry Potter. She started out with Disney but they wanted to control the show. With Cameron, one side is going to have to check their ego at the door, and if the rumors are true that there's some conflict it's probably because they're arguing over who's going to check. Time will tell whether that results in something spectacular or bland for everyone to see, however we shouldn't default to "it's going to be great" because that leads to false expectations. There's always going to be two camps on this approach but hopefully you can see why some of us remain cautious.

Overexposure is indeed a segment of the problem, and Disney isn't helping the situation by dangling the carrot in front of everyone for years on end. The addition of Avatar was announced over three years ago. Some believe the time spent thus far has been to develop something new and out of this world. That may be the case, but if so why not wait until that new technology (if that's what it is) is developed then make the announcement? If things don't work out as hoped, whether it be pushing the technology threshold or arguments amongst the alphas, then you're stuck with either backtracking or serving up something mediocre and hope people still applaud. Guests and fans were overexposed to New Fantasyland, especially the Mine Train, and weren't exactly overwhelmed when it finally opened. In that scenario if you want to build something, make the statement and just go do it. You own the zoning, you can control the pace of construction and you're not reinventing the wheel so why drag it out? Obviously it's a cost-saving measure but sometimes that strategy can backfire a bit. The absence of the details on construction in Hollywood Studios may be an indication of a change in the thought process by management to go away from that carrot but who knows.

thanks this is a great response. I think this is where I allow myself to err on the non guarded side as opposed to the more guarded. When I first came to this site, I couldn't believe how many posters seemed to "hate" Disney--- but as I read and learned, I came to realize that it is the "love" that drives the "hate". I get the "truth" behind the management's motives, but maybe don't feel a need to look so deep for the truth, or actually what may be perceived truth.

Here's a point-- the dangled carrot-- I have read from another poster the asked question " outside of these boards, how many people do you know (in regular life ) who are as Disney obsessed as we are?" I think I know one couple. Aside form them, many people I know will go to Disney every couple to 5 years.... THESE people have never heard of the avatar land plan, nor any of the things planned for HS, etc. The only reason we are all so informed of the coming attractions is because we strive to find out as early as possible. Even if they didn't make an announcement, someone would have found the permitting with the water district, and so on. Some of the blame falls to us, the crazy, for staying so up on the "rumors and news".

I'm glad you guys go into such depth in the business discussions-- I have gained a lot of perspective-- but chose to remain just above (in perspective) (not a derogatory comment)the rung of scrutiny that you guys are on.

You can say it's the koolaid or whatever you want. It's just a little more fun up here. And that is the only reason I do any of it.

Even if the glass is half empty, I like to think that they are trying to refill it.

 

[Yellowstonetim]

Since your quote, I added a bit to my post, but just an overview of differing opinions-- I do see the point that all of you are making with the direction things are going, but still have hope for a turn around, or that things are not actually as bad as a lot of you think they are.

I try to stay on the optimistic side of everything, so this falls in that category. I do think that Cameron's personality will make the project better as opposed to worse by pushing for perfection. The depth you guys get to in these discussions leave me behind a bit,( and I enjoy all the input) but my opinion remains the same.

So my elaboration is that it seems that no matter what occurs, or is predicted to occur, or has occurred, will be reflected with a negative perspective.

I hold to that this is all due to all of our personal over exposure to the World.

I am an admitted Kool-Aid drinking, Pollyanna, Tony Robbins, Mr. Positive and I sure do feel the negativity about EVERYTHING around here. I really think you are right about "personal overexposure". I am a Disney LOVER, but not near as frequent a visitor as many of you. I think this drastically affects my outlook and my desire or need for change. I went in the 80s and 90's causally, made the first onsite visit in 2000, then returned in January 2012 and September 2013. My next visit if October 2015. A handful of visits since I became a "fan" in 2000 and a serious fan along with my adult children in 2012. I'll bet that most people in the negative camp have visited for more frequently than I. Every time I go everything is fantastic and while new stuff would be fun, I am enamored of all I see and do. Maybe that will change, but I am not going to go 3 times a year for exactly that reason. Unless I get a part-time job at Disney when I retire.

 

[Suger Mag]

I find it ironic that your comments of 'talk is cheap', 'don't care about announcements' and 'trusting the shovels' is more or less the mantra of the guarded camp yet you seem to be opposed to those opinions and declare them negative.

Like using the phrase 'guarded' is so much better than negative. Fine... change the word... but the result is the same. Almost every time something is talked about here it is done in a negative light.

LOL.... WDW has even been compared to the fall of ROme... over on the Paris thread y'all are major doom and gloom about how everything will fail. Practically everything to do with Avatar on this section of the DIS has been negative.

I am an admitted Kool-Aid drinking, Pollyanna, Tony Robbins, Mr. Positive and I sure do feel the negativity about EVERYTHING around here. I really think you are right about "personal overexposure". I am a Disney LOVER, but near as frequent a visitor as many of you. I think this drastically affects my outlook and my desire or need for change. I went in the 80s and 90's causally, made the first onsite visit in 2000, then returned in January 2012 and September 2013. My next visit if October 2015. A handful of visits since I became a "fan" in 2000 and a serious fan along with my adult children in 2012. I'll bet that most people in the negative camp have visited for more frequently than I. Every time I go everything is fantastic and while new stuff would be fun, I am enamored of all I see and do. Maybe that will change, but I am not going to go 3 times a year for exactly that reason. Unless I get a job when I retire.

I agree with the over exsposure concept and think it does color your expectations. I think there is a lot of negativity from many of the long time fans who have seen and done everything and for whom the 'magic' has gone. Sometimes it reminds me of the classic generational tthing... "Kids today...." just replaced with "WDW today..."

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Like using the phrase 'guarded' is so much better than negative. Fine... change the word... but the result is the same. Almost every time something is talked about here it is done in a negative light.

LOL.... WDW has even been compared to the fall of ROme... over on the Paris thread y'all are major doom and gloom about how everything will fail. Practically everything to do with Avatar on this section of the DIS has been negative.

I would say "skeptical"...and that's fairly
Warranted. I see that many here think that I (speaking only for myself) am imagining some sort of conspiracy by Disney against the customer. I'll admit the thought had crossed my mind...but that's not doing the talking. There HAS been a fundamental shift in how the corporate leadership had approached parks, operation and investment in the last 10-15 years.

In particular...I fear that wdw reached its "zenith" during the millenium celebration...and that we will see more and more status quo overtime.

I agree with the over exsposure concept and think it does color your expectations. I think there is a lot of negativity from many of the long time fans who have seen and done everything and for whom the 'magic' has gone. Sometimes it reminds me of the classic generational tthing... "Kids today...." just replaced with "WDW today..."

So let me get this straight...those of us that have more experience/exposure and analyze the place beyond "how magical is POR?!?!" have invalidated ourselves in some bizarro world?

Ok...got it.

(FYI it's a BUSINESS!!!....not magic. If you dont treat it as such...you will lose your power as the consumer. I know it's disappointing and stinky...but "vacations" can't involve full neural shutdown. Life is tough sometimes...

That doesn't mean you can't get lost in the fun...but it can't go to the extreme of a lemming sprint. Only an opinion...but I've been there too much...so, you know what that means )

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I think you're missing the point on most of the crowd here who remain guarded (I'll use that instead of 'negative'). We want things to turn around as much as you do, but as has been stated before recent behavior shows an opposite trend.

Yes, Cameron's talents and desire for perfection can go a long way in making an excellent attraction. The problem here is that you have two alphas sitting at the table and oftentimes that leads to conflict. If memory serves, that's one of the reasons that Rowling went to Universal with Harry Potter. She started out with Disney but they wanted to control the show. With Cameron, one side is going to have to check their ego at the door, and if the rumors are true that there's some conflict it's probably because they're arguing over who's going to check. Time will tell whether that results in something spectacular or bland for everyone to see, however we shouldn't default to "it's going to be great" because that leads to false expectations. There's always going to be two camps on this approach but hopefully you can see why some of us remain cautious.

Overexposure is indeed a segment of the problem, and Disney isn't helping the situation by dangling the carrot in front of everyone for years on end. The addition of Avatar was announced over three years ago. Some believe the time spent thus far has been to develop something new and out of this world. That may be the case, but if so why not wait until that new technology (if that's what it is) is developed then make the announcement? If things don't work out as hoped, whether it be pushing the technology threshold or arguments amongst the alphas, then you're stuck with either backtracking or serving up something mediocre and hope people still applaud. Guests and fans were overexposed to New Fantasyland, especially the Mine Train, and weren't exactly overwhelmed when it finally opened. In that scenario if you want to build something, make the statement and just go do it. You own the zoning, you can control the pace of construction and you're not reinventing the wheel so why drag it out? Obviously it's a cost-saving measure but sometimes that strategy can backfire a bit. The absence of the details on construction in Hollywood Studios may be an indication of a change in the thought process by management to go away from that carrot but who knows.

This is one of the best posts I've ever read and is dead on the money.( I'm not surprised at all either)

Why...oh for all that is holy and good...is the construction timeline not a bigger deal with ALL
Disney parks fans?

Because most are still - likely falsely - thinking that time will equal quality...because that's the "Disney way"

Wrong...1000%. The fact is that the Disney way was to work there cans off and get it up. That was part of the hunt/game. Time was only evidence of problems - like the haunted mansion in Disneyland. I mean... Times change... But they built the Matterhorn, monorail, and several other additions in Disneyland in 2 years flat.
Built EPCOT in 4... Which is astounding just from a dirt and steel perspective. Animal kingdom in 5 more recent... Even slashed down.

NFL in 4+? That's what you got?

Lots of $125-650 standard room hotel nights in 4 years...huh?

Why do an "announcement"'when you've got NOTHING established - which is avatar at this point. 2 1/2 years to start site prep? We're buying this?...we May be another year from concept....

That's nuts. Who like this/wants this?

AHHHHH...the street likes this. The accountant likes this...
Carrot dangling in its prototype format. Drive travel based on promises/slash budget behind the seems/Slow it down...take "coming soon" to extreme levels.

Tell me I'm wrong... And base it on these examples:
1. Avatar (sept 2011 announcement)
2. Downtown (partial closure in 2006-7...preliminary relaunch in 2015)
3. Fantasyland...2008 announcement...2014 full opening...and not super impressive/strengthening. A very minor rollercoaster in a hole that took 3 years to build.

Sorry to rant...but I need a counter argument to the facts...not "trust Disney".

We all should be asking for more than blind faith.

 

[twebber55]

This is one of the best posts I've ever read and is dead on the money.( I'm not surprised at all either)

Why...oh for all that is holy and good...is the construction timeline not a bigger deal with ALL
Disney parks fans?

Because most are still - likely falsely - thinking that time will equal quality...because that's the "Disney way"

Wrong...1000%. The fact is that the Disney way was to work there cans off and get it up. That was part of the hunt/game. Time was only evidence of problems - like the haunted mansion in Disneyland. I mean... Times change... But they built the Matterhorn, monorail, and several other additions in Disneyland in 2 years flat.
Built EPCOT in 4... Which is astounding just from a dirt and steel perspective. Animal kingdom in 5 more recent... Even slashed down.

NFL in 4+? That's what you got?

Lots of $125-650 standard room hotel nights in 4 years...huh?

Why do an "announcement"'when you've got NOTHING established - which is avatar at this point. 2 1/2 years to start site prep? We're buying this?...we May be another year from concept....

That's nuts. Who like this/wants this?

AHHHHH...the street likes this. The accountant likes this...
Carrot dangling in its prototype format. Drive travel based on promises/slash budget behind the seems/Slow it down...take "coming soon" to extreme levels.

Tell me I'm wrong... And base it on these examples:
1. Avatar (sept 2011 announcement)
2. Downtown (partial closure in 2006-7...preliminary relaunch in 2015)
3. Fantasyland...2008 announcement...2014 full opening...and not super impressive/strengthening. A very minor rollercoaster in a hole that took 3 years to build.

Sorry to rant...but I need a counter argument to the facts...not "trust Disney".

We all should be asking for more than blind faith.

totally agree with you in terms of timeline for construction, beyond ridiculous

especially when the neighbors up the street are pumping out attractions in half the time

 

[lockedoutlogic]

totally agree with you in terms of timeline for construction, beyond ridiculous

especially when the neighbors up the street are pumping out attractions in half the time

How about this gem...

The last major ride designed for and built in wdw exclusively that was successful...

Was rockinroller coaster in 1999...and if memory serves - I ride that many months before grand opening in 1998.

Now...Everest is only a partial success - the coaster works.
And midway mania was developed for Disneyland at the same time...and is a fairly minor ride when you get down to the nuts and bolts. So maybe half credit there.

It's Disney...it's not six flags...we understand that new rollercoaster don't and shouldn't go up every year...

But amusement parks suffer from stagnation since Coney Island...that is a force they always fight against...no matter how much the owner likes themselves.

And Disney sees it now in its parks...they had california Adventure rejected... They can't sell euro...hong kong has struggled greatly...animal kingdom has never gotten there...
And my grand old girl EPCOT is looking very krusty in some areas.

How do you fix that (if you want to)?

It isn't dessert parties for 10 year old fireworks and frozen overlays

 

[Andrew015]

Tell me I'm wrong... And base it on these examples:
1. Avatar (sept 2011 announcement)
2. Downtown (partial closure in 2006-7...preliminary relaunch in 2015)
3. Fantasyland...2008 announcement...2014 full opening...and not super impressive/strengthening. A very minor rollercoaster in a hole that took 3 years to build.

Isn't it ironic how they "pick and choose" which projects to expedite, and which ones they choose to drag on and milk for years on-end?

1. Disney announces DVC coming to Grand Floridian in December, 2011. The resort OPENS - not the beginning of concept art, nor the awarding of the construction work, nor shovels hitting the ground.... OPENS - in 1 year and 8 months after the announcement.

2. Disney announces DVC coming to Polynesian in September, 2013. The resort is expected to open in early 2015, or ~ 1 year and 6 months after the announcement. This timing isn't dedicated just to adding DVC at the Poly, but also for renovating the majority of the existing, non-DVC portion of the resort, too.

They have no problem kicking things into drive when they stand to collect huge chunks of change from a new DVC resort coming online, but probably love even more being able to sit back and collect on pixie-dust covered "coming soon" announcements well before having to open their billfold for any capital. Funny how that works, isn't it?

 

[lockedoutlogic]

To be fair...hotel construction isn't in the same league...

Hotels don't have hydraulics, pneumatics, and computer control systems to anywhere near the level of even the most basic Disney rides.

The hardest part of the hotel process is the trunk tie ins for utilities and the superstructure...as they used to build to cat 3 hurricane strength and now I'm sure it's cat 5.
You never wondered why the wifi is so bad?

But to your point...Florida law governs timeshare sales and operations (one of the few things it DOES govern)...and they can't sell them until they build them...

Hmmmm....

 

[Andrew015]

And for what it's worth, I may come off as a "glass half-full" kind of guy on the Rumors forum, but that doesn't stop me from taking my 1-2 trips per year, putting thousands into the very coffers that I chastise with you all on a regular basis. Despite Disney heading down what I feel to be a directionally "negative" path, that doesn't stop me from enjoying my time when there (and shelling out lots of dough in the process).

This is a win-win for Disney, as so many of us reward their behavior (whether you feel it is good, bad or indifferent), so what is their incentive to change anything directionally? The company is as strong as ever financially, despite putting out a product that is not as good as it was ten years ago. Until consumers choose otherwise (i.e. less days at Disney, more at Universal), we shouldn't expect Disney to change their operating MO anytime soon.

Much like LockedOut, I try to look at facts objectively and put my emotions aside, which is a difficult thing to do when you're talking about something that you love so much. Despite my love for Disney, it's hard to deny these facts:

Disney is no longer run based on "Walt's Vision" which we all hold so near and dear, but rather, is run by bean counters and Wall Street. FACT

Output (# of new attractions) and quality thereof was better under the "Walt's Vision" premise than it is under today's bean-counter MO. FACT

Disney has chosen to invest as little as possible in terms of new attractions, and chooses to drag out construction projects to spread the cost over multiple fiscal years, all while promoting these "coming soon" new attractions and reaping financial benefits of said marketing. FACT

Disney is more interested in investing in ways to control costs and understand consumer spending habits than it is in improving guest experiences within the parks ($425 million for NFL, $1B for MDE/FP+/Magic Bands). FACT

Despite all of this negativity, I am still packing my rose-colored sunglasses for 10 days of fun in the sun at my favorite vacation destination next week. That either makes me a hypocrite or an incredibly stupid consumer.... or both

 

[Andrew015]

To be fair...hotel construction isn't in the same league...

Hotels don't have hydraulics, pneumatics, and computer control systems to anywhere near the level of even the most basic Disney rides.

The hardest part of the hotel process is the trunk tie ins for utilities and the superstructure...as they used to build to cat 3 hurricane strength and now I'm sure it's cat 5.
You never wondered why the wifi is so bad?

But to your point...Florida law governs timeshare sales and operations (one of the few things it DOES govern)...and they can't sell them until they build them...

Hmmmm....

Understood that these go up much quicker than say a major park expansion, but the point is, when there is a cash windfall awaiting the ribbon-cutting ceremony of a DVC resort, you know d*&n well that management is pushing pedal to the metal for the project to be wrapped up ASAP. As opposed to a "park expansion" that can be glittered up and used as marketing propaganda to sell park tickets for a ride that isn't even on-line, the pressure isn't nearly the same.

I am inclined to believe that management pushes for projects on the scale of say NFL to drag out for 5-6 years as part of their operating strategy. Budgeting for $70M over 6 years is much more palatable than $425M in one fiscal calendar year. We haven't seen anything in recent years that points to the contrary...

 

[clsteve]

Despite all of this negativity, I am still packing my rose-colored sunglasses for 10 days of fun in the sun at my favorite vacation destination next week. That either makes me a hypocrite or an incredibly stupid consumer.... or both

+1 to your comments

To the highlighted:

Hey, who hasn't been in a dysfunctional relationship before...?

If being smart and having some disposable income precluded us from having one, there'd be about 100,000 psychiatrists out of work......

 

[Andrew015]

+1 to your comments

To the highlighted:

Hey, who hasn't been in a dysfunctional relationship before...?

If being smart and having some disposable income precluded us from having one, there'd be about 100,000 psychiatrists out of work......

Thanks for the laugh, Steve

I have a fitting comment in mind that would probably make you laugh in person, but I can't figure out how to put it in writing without it sounding like I'm sleeping with Disney, which just has all sorts of bad written all over it, so I'll just let it be

 

[clsteve]

Thanks for the laugh, Steve

I have a fitting comment in mind that would probably make you laugh in person, but I can't figure out how to put it in writing without it sounding like I'm sleeping with Disney, which just has all sorts of bad written all over it, so I'll just let it be

Ha!

I see where you're going - definitely a good Beer:30 conversation...!!