Family Tree Difficulties--When Women Didn't Matter (slight rant)

[Pink Partridge]

I have been really into genealogy lately. Thoroughly enjoying all of my paid services/tools like 23 and Me, Ancestry, Newspapers.com, etc.

What makes research so difficult is the fact that female's first names were rarely used once they were married. This was even happening in the 1970s. Even in death, an obituary would read "Mrs. Bob Jones". No first name. Just her husband's. And then the daughters are listed as Mrs. Jacob Smith, or the like.

It is very frustrating.

I know there are worse things going on in the world. Just a minor rant.

 

[tvguy]

My wife has found the same thing in her research. And, that often the man's name is spelled wrong, especially if the man was an immigrant. Immigration officials seem to have made zero effort to spell names correctly. Another common problem, obituaries are often largely works of fiction. We are planning a trip to Missouri to try and find my wife's Great-Grandfather's grave. His death certificate names the cemetery he is supposed to be buried in. The news article on his death (hit car was hit by a train) says the same thing. As does his obit. The cemetery however, has no record of him being buried there and there is no headstone with his name on it.

 

[LuvOrlando]

Same thing here, I have a great grandmother who only exists because I have been told her name. It's almost as if women vanished as property after they became Mr's XYZ... being sarcastic because they really did vanish and that was the whole point of changing your name. Did you know women couldn't even have their own bank accounts until around 1974 , we forget we've only been allowed to vote since 1920 :/ property indeed.

Strangest thing about the practice is that the only line people can really be certain of is the female line because a baby literally popped out of a female, the other half is often murky as we all know thanks to daytime talk shows & DNA.

 

[loves to dive]

I feel ya. Or when there is no last name for the wife. If you are going as far back as the 1700s you will find lots of documentation of a wife's name as such and such but no last name. Sometimes the only way you even know the first name is in the husband's will. There are some marriage records that far back but you really have to search. It doesn't help that cousins married cousins and named their kids the same thing.

I'm stuck on a 2x great grandfather. I know his name, I know his wife's name and have even been able to trace her family to the minute they stepped foot on US soil (before the war of independence and they were German) but him. Nope. His obit says he is from NC, his confederate benefits application says SC. They both have similar but different birth dates. I have an idea of the year they were married but can find no documents. No death certificate for him because the courthouse in Georgia burnt down and all the records with it. I've looked at census records for the year around when they got married, thinking he had to have lived somewhere near her, I can find her and her family but no him. I suspect and have no proof, that the last name is either made up or misspelled. I know they married in Georgia and I've looked in Georgia, SC and NC and he's just not there.

I have another 2x great grandmother with the same situation. Her name is listed on the census but with about 3 different spellings. Her last name is listed in two different places as two different things. Family lore was that she was native American, yet I have not a drop of native American DNA. I even have a 2nd cousin that swears it's true and since DNA tends to show more male side, it's just not showing. Her proof, our Great Aunt said so. (She knew the grandmother sort of). Now the Great Aunt in question I loved and spent summers with, but she never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

So much of tracing ancestry relies on stories and no proof, it really can get tricky.

 

[tvguy]

Same thing here, I have a great grandmother who only exists because I have been told her name. It's almost as if women vanished as property after they became Mr's XYZ... being sarcastic because they really did vanish and that was the whole point of changing your name. Did you know women couldn't even have their own bank accounts until around 1974 , we forget we've only been allowed to vote since 1920 :/ property indeed.

Strangest thing about the practice is that the only line people can really be certain of is the female line because a baby literally popped out of a female, the other half is often murky as we all know thanks to daytime talk shows & DNA.

My wife made the same comment about bank accounts and credit cards. My dad died in 1967 and my mom never remarried and I am only aware of one issue she had. Pacific Gas and Electric would not put my mom's name on her account with them, so she just left my dad's name on it. 30 years after dad died, she tried again, and they wanted a deposit as this would be a "new" account. She finally spoke to a supervisor who got it fixed, in her name, with no deposit.

 

[Pink Partridge]

My wife has found the same thing in her research. And, that often the man's name is spelled wrong, especially if the man was an immigrant. Immigration officials seem to have made zero effort to spell names correctly. Another common problem, obituaries are often largely works of fiction. We are planning a trip to Missouri to try and find my wife's Great-Grandfather's grave. His death certificate names the cemetery he is supposed to be buried in. The news article on his death (hit car was hit by a train) says the same thing. As does his obit. The cemetery however, has no record of him being buried there and there is no headstone with his name on it.

Please take a picture of the grave if you can find it and post it on Find A Grave. Also post the news article about the crash in the Find A Grave "additional photos" section. Future generations will be thankful.

 

[lanejudy]

The cemetery however, has no record of him being buried there and there is no headstone with his name on it.

Is there a family plot in that cemetery? He may have been buried in a larger plot with a different name on the headstone (relative's last name) and the records weren't kept accurately. My mother had an uncle who is buried in his wife's family's plot, so the headstone is a very different last name. And headstones aren't required; it's an extra expense. Also be aware that sometimes they doubled-up in a cemetery plot -- DH has a family plot with something like 7 people documented as buried in a 4-person plot because the older ones were buried extra deep so another could go on top (and 2 were children, likely buried head-to-foot on the same level).

Did you know women couldn't even have their own bank accounts until around 1974

That's mis-stated. The legislation in 1974 required banks to allow a woman to open her own bank account (or credit account) without a co-signor -- many already did. Prior to that it was not illegal for a woman to have her own bank account, just more difficult due to some banks with antiquated requirements that discriminated.

 

[LuvOrlando]

That's mis-stated. The legislation in 1974 required banks to allow a woman to open her own bank account (or credit account) without a co-signor -- many already did. Prior to that it was not illegal for a woman to have her own bank account, just more difficult due to some banks with antiquated requirements that discriminated.

OK so the word illegal is the part that bothers you about the topic?

By illegal I meant out of the scope of legal. The just thing was not legally enforced in the same way segregation made mixing illegal, maybe it wasn't explicitly illegal everywhere but the just thing also wasn't explicitly legally enforced. So like that, in a greater than & less than way.

 

[lanejudy]

OK so the word illegal is the part that bothers you about the topic?

You made a blanket statement; the word "illegal" wasn't part of your post though it may have been implied. Were some women discriminated against? Yes. Some. Not all banks were that discriminatory and women were able to open bank accounts much earlier than 1974.

 

[sarahann77]

Just the first name available for the women have stopped a lot of my tracks. Finding my great grandmother's records at certain points is just about impossible as she decided to never be older than her second husband so her birth date acknowledged is different. Her mother also has the same name as her mother's so that caused some confusion which led to an incorrect date on the grave as we think it's really her mother and not her as my dad knows for certain she lived after that since he met her. Another kept changing his name so a marriage record has been impossible to find of his second marriage that we know full well about as well.

 

[NYCgrrl]

Another common problem, obituaries are often largely works of fiction. We are planning a trip to Missouri to try and find my wife's Great-Grandfather's grave. His death certificate names the cemetery he is supposed to be buried in. The news article on his death (hit car was hit by a train) says the same thing. As does his obit. The cemetery however, has no record of him being buried there and there is no headstone with his name on it.

It sounds like only one source was used consistently to reference his death. If it’s wrong then of course everyone who uses the info is too . Here is a thought: check the history of the cemetery he was supposed to be buried in. Sometimes land was re used, sold for public works, etc. Also, if he were a veteran or member of a fraternal organization there might be an authoritative source of his passing via a local group. Good luck.

. I even have a 2nd cousin that swears it's true and since DNA tends to show more male side, it's just not showing. Her proof, our Great Aunt said so. (She knew the grandmother sort of)

Oral history is all I have to start some of my genealogy.
According to my Mom and her cousin, both oldest members of a maternal familial group, one of my cousins was a Rhodes scholar and attended Oxford around the time of the American Civil War. Great story complete with oft told tales of the parish celebration but it was “misleading” (Never tell my mother she was ever wrong ).
Reality:
He was a great grand uncle to the storytellers; a winner of a Rhodes scholarship but in protest turned down the English college and funds, and instead attended a HBCU in DC on his own dime, thus becoming the first known member of that part of the family to step foot in the USA. Oh and he attended college a good 20 years after the Civil War.
It was hard tracking down the correct info but there were kernels of truth amongst the telling that allowed the facts to come to the fore. So don’t despair!

 

[LuvOrlando]

You made a blanket statement; the word "illegal" wasn't part of your post though it may have been implied. Were some women discriminated against? Yes. Some. Not all banks were that discriminatory and women were able to open bank accounts much earlier than 1974.

I know, still that really isn't the point, your approach undermines the issue so was that intentional or not?

In some places up north segregation wasn't really a thing, I would still call it a reach to correct a person on the topic because it comes across as intentional derailing.

The OP is posting about frustration with finding female family members, there is a reason the results are occluded, correcting on use of words really doesn't lend anything valuable to the topic in my opinion. The spirit of the dialogue is self evident I think.

 

[NYCgrrl]

Did you know women couldn't even have their own bank accounts until around 1974

I know what you mean and of course banking regulations and rules probably differed by states.
Most of my relatives (women included) opened bank accounts via federally chartered institutions that began post Civil War. One of the first was the Freedmen’s Bank but further north Carver Federal and Freedom were big in historically Black communities. On both sides of my family you were looked at “side eyed” if you didn’t have a bank account regardless of your gender. Now the fact that my mother used some of her funds to ensure her manicure matched her outfit (Really, Mom?!? You actually were that silly young once? ) is immaterial….

 

[RedAngie]

The church where I grew up celebrated its 75th anniversary in 1972 and published a commemorative book. Every photo of married women is identified as Mrs. Husband’s name.

And I remember my mother’s Charge Cards for department stores embossed with Mrs. Father’s name. That’s how she had to sign the sales slips. I don’t think she got a Visa card in her name until the late 1980s, and it’s likely my father was a co-signer on the application because she had no independent income.

 

[NYCgrrl]

I have been really into genealogy lately. Thoroughly enjoying all of my paid services/tools like 23 and Me, Ancestry, Newspapers.com, etc.

What makes research so difficult is the fact that female's first names were rarely used once they were married. This was even happening in the 1970s. Even in death, an obituary would read "Mrs. Bob Jones". No first name. Just her husband's. And then the daughters are listed as Mrs. Jacob Smith, or the like.

It is very frustrating.

I know there are worse things going on in the world. Just a minor rant.

Something not mentioned frequently is a family Bible. If you’ve access it can help “unravel the knot”, gender-wise. Good luck!

 

[BrianL]

The church where I grew up celebrated its 75th anniversary in 1972 and published a commemorative book. Every photo of married women is identified as Mrs. Husband’s name.

And I remember my mother’s Charge Cards for department stores embossed with Mrs. Father’s name. That’s how she had to sign the sales slips. I don’t think she got a Visa card in her name until the late 1980s, and it’s likely my father was a co-signer on the application because she had no independent income.

I think that was the issue. It's not that women weren't allowed to have bank accounts or credit cards per se, it's that many women did not have jobs and only worked in the home, so their husband was financially responsible for said accounts. Now, certainly misogyny and traditional gender roles played into that - it was an assumption that women did not have their own financial independence, even if some did.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Considering it's still pervasive now it's not surprising. Not necessarily government records as much but it's a default for the majority to address things as Mrs. (husband's last name). It would be easy for it to be entered incorrectly even now and just stick around through records. At least marriage records are better now. But if you're looking at correspondances, newspapers, etc you may still run into issues even today.

My name is hyphenated, my DISer friend did not change her last name when she got married last year, both of us still get plenty of things addressed to us with incorrect names even from our family members. Another DISer said if she ever got married again she would not change her name (and she's gone back to her maiden name). We had a good conversation about this. It does annoy us that our identity is basically erased even if no ill intent is meant.

I will say at least it's more common to have the woman's first name listed but not always. The majority of the stuff I get will have the incorrect last name for me but at least my name is listed.

However not always. Sometimes it's Mr. and Mrs. Mickelson, other times it's Mr and Mrs. Aaron Mickelson.

When my father-in-law got remarried in 2018 it was addressed to Mr. and Mrs. Aaron Mickelson..... Save the dates sent last year and wedding invitations sent a few weeks ago for father-in-law's wife's daughter's upcoming wedding in May it was addressed to Mr. and Mrs. Aaron Mickelson. I know the wife (who is the mom of the woman getting married) is very traditional to the point where she even questioned (by means of Emily Post) how my husband addressed the RSVP to their wedding due to my last name being different than his so that falls on her not getting up with the times and it's possible she physically came up with the list so I'm not knocking the daughter too much here. The mom is aware, her daughter is aware, family members are aware, they just forget (however innocent it normally is) when it comes time to writing it down.

 

[robinb]

And I remember my mother’s Charge Cards for department stores embossed with Mrs. Father’s name. That’s how she had to sign the sales slips. I don’t think she got a Visa card in her name until the late 1980s, and it’s likely my father was a co-signer on the application because she had no independent income.

My father died in 1973 and I remember all my mother's credit cards were still in his name years later. She gave me duplicate Shell gas card in the late 70's and I signed the back in his name, but my writing so it would match. I recall having one gas station attendant had a hissy fit about it a few years later and nearly refused to allow me to use it to pay for the gas that was already pumped. I pointed out that the account was in my father's name, which was the same as my last name and the signature matched. I never went back to that station again.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

My wife has found the same thing in her research. And, that often the man's name is spelled wrong, especially if the man was an immigrant. Immigration officials seem to have made zero effort to spell names correctly. Another common problem, obituaries are often largely works of fiction. We are planning a trip to Missouri to try and find my wife's Great-Grandfather's grave. His death certificate names the cemetery he is supposed to be buried in. The news article on his death (hit car was hit by a train) says the same thing. As does his obit. The cemetery however, has no record of him being buried there and there is no headstone with his name on it.

It was not entirely uncommon for those coming over to change their names either completely or modify the spelling although most often that seemed to be last name related. The was for a myriad of reasons from distancing from home country, to ease of usage here. Yes sometimes it was a mistake on behalf of those intaking information but not always. My husband's dad's side of the family changed the spelling of their last name when they came over from Norway in the 1800s as an example and willingly changed it. So while your wife's great-grandfather's spelling could be an error it wasn't always a lack of effort on the part of officials.

 

[tvguy]

It was not entirely uncommon for those coming over to change their names either completely or modify the spelling although most often that seemed to be last name related. The was for a myriad of reasons from distancing from home country, to ease of usage here. Yes sometimes it was a mistake on behalf of those intaking information but not always. My husband's dad's side of the family changed the spelling of their last name when they came over from Norway in the 1800s as an example and willingly changed it. So while your wife's great-grandfather's spelling could be an error it wasn't always a lack of effort on the part of officials.

I wish the issue was that easy with my wife's Great-Grandfather. His name is spelled correctly, the issue is the cemetery has no record of him being buried there.
My side of the family is the one with spelling errors, and at least in that case, it seems it was a mistake by immigration folks because the only records with the spelling error are the immigration records. Everything before they arrived and after is spelled correctly.