ex-wife moving kids across country

[Jpgirl]

My best friend's son went through this very same thing. His lawyer presented an arguement to oppose having the ex move on the grounds that it would be detrimental to the children's relationship with the father. There were social worker visits and someone was appointed to represent the childre. In the end the judge found in favor of the dad. The mom could not move 100 miles from the dad. Please don't think that just because you're a guy and sharing custody that you have any less right to a relationship with your kids. Good Luck

 

[kimmikayb]

Move aways are one of my pet peeves of divorces. I hope you can work it out with your X without court, but if you have to...fight for your rights.

 

[mvazul]

I normally don't post to these kinds of threads, but feel like I need to this time. This is very close to what I went through. Only difference, I had one son age 5 at the time. All of my family/friends and all of XH's family were still in PA (Bradford County). XH was living in VA at the time, but all of our court hearings were in PA.

First of all, don't be nasty. Just present the facts. I was engaged to my DH at the time we needed to move. DH was offered a job in MN. I approached my XH and let him know we were thinking about relocating. He told me no problem and actually congratulated me on the engagement and move. He told me to petition the court for relocation and he would sign whatever he needed to sign. I was shocked. I should have known better.

Our hearing was on the same day we were packed to move. At the last minute, XH petitioned the court to keep DS in PA. I was due to start a new job that week we got to MN. The judge said DS needed to stay in PA until another hearing scheduled for 6 weeks later. I asked XH if he could take DS until the next hearing. He refused!! My mother and sister had to take him.

As DH and I were moving to MN, we stopped in IN the next morning so I could call to see how DS was. My mother was frantic. She said as soon as I left PA, XH filed a motion of abandonment against me. So, I had to finish the trip to MN, unpack, talk to my new boss and hop a train back to PA. I had to sit in PA until the hearing. In the meantime, XH stopped paying support.

Also, DH and I had a date set and things were in motion for us to get married. However, to be on the safe side, we made things legal before the hearing. The judge never even took that into consideration. He did, however, take into consideration my job, DH's job and how much each of us made - even though DH had no legal obligations for support for DS. The judge decided it was in the best interest of DS to stay with me. Yes, we had joint legal custody, but I had primary physical custody since the day we separated.

Needless to say, all of the crap XH pulled made me trust him even less than I already did. Our communication was already strained, but this stunt made it non-existent. That was 7 years ago. Things have gone waaaay down hill from there.

So, my advice would be to play by the rules. Don't get dirty. Even if your ex plays that way, don't lower yourself to her level. You sound like a very level-headed man. Stay that way. Things will work out the way they are supposed to. Maybe that is for your kids to stay in PA with you? Maybe that is for your kids to move to the West Coast with your ex? Who knows. If your ex is allowed to move them, stay in constant contact. Follow through with your scheduled visitations (my ex didn't). Those kids are the two most important factors in all of this. Not your ex-wife or her boyfriend and not you or your new wife and child.

Good luck!

PS - when I was going through this, I was told the age a child's say had any merit was 12. I'm not sure if that has changed since then?

 

[far away in PA]

I tried to talk to ex about all of this. She will not listen. I mentioned that the kids could live with me. She said she could not stand to be away from her kids, though she expects me to do just that. Ex said that she is with the kids M-F and I am used to being apart from them, so this should be fairly easy. I think that is crazy, how does a parent who is involved, get used to see their kids only a few times each year?

I believe that the boyfriend is moving with or without her. They have been together for years, not engaged, not married, and he is not involved with the kids at all. Even worse, he makes palns to go out of town when they are spending a weekend at his house. SO then the kids end up with their grandparents. Exactly this is happening this weekend. He has an important conference in another state on Saturday, so he and ex-wife are going, leaving oldest with her friends for the weekend, and son is coming to my house.

I really wish we could keep this out of the courts, but I do not see that happening. The boyfriend is moving with or without them. If he moves and they all stay, ex-wife will have to find a new house, new job, and actually have to work, which is something she has not done for over 2 years now. There is a lot of incentive for her to make the move.


I am calling my lawyer today and going to try to fight for full custody. I'll keep my fingers crossed.

How do you think I should handle this with the kids? Son is coming tonight and daughter will be here next Friday. Do I sit them down and discuss this with them? Do I try to point out the ramifications of them moving - hardly ever seeing us, their sister, and relatives on their mom's side? Do I point out to them it will be extrememly difficult for me, wife, and daughter to attend the extra-curricular activities as we do now?

Please offer advice. So far it's been helpful.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

All I can say is keep the faith and stop the mother. She sounds destructive.

Tell your kids you could not bear for them to be away from you. Tell them how much you love them.

 

[Marilou]

My appologies for not reading thru the entire thread, but my thoughts are that since the extended family is all centrally located in PA, there is your argument. My opinion is that it would be far more benefitial for children to grow up near family.
Also the fact that the mom is not married to the person she wants to move away with is a factor too I think.
Shame on her for asking kids for their choice. It should be first and foremost discussed between the parents and then the judge. I always hate it when my my ex talks to our kids, confiding in them as if they were grownups. There are some topics that you don't discuss w/the kids (but I'm going off topic)

I could see her having more of a chance if:

It was her employer looking to promote her and transfer her, then she could argue you are trying to hold her back (this is not the case)

She was married to this person and showed that this is the kids main family unit and since step-dad supports them etc etc, that it is best for the home family unit (this is also not the case)

I will wish you lots of luck and patience in this. My ex & I have same custody agreement and I would never consider trying what your ex is trying. I have enough problems with the fact my ex moved almost an hour away and now on his weekends, he complains that he has to keep coming back to my hometown for kids activities (sports, dance, karate, scouts etc) IMO thats his fault for moving so far away from kids hometown. (sorry, going off topic again)

 

[HeatherFeather]

Based on what you have posted here, I think you have a very good chance of either keeping her from leaving with your children or getting custody yourself. However, it also sounds like you are going to have to go to court to do this. Best of luck to you!

 

[Marilou]

I tried to talk to ex about all of this. She will not listen. I mentioned that the kids could live with me. She said she could not stand to be away from her kids, though she expects me to do just that. Ex said that she is with the kids M-F and I am used to being apart from them, so this should be fairly easy. I think that is crazy, how does a parent who is involved, get used to see their kids only a few times each year?

I believe that the boyfriend is moving with or without her. They have been together for years, not engaged, not married, and he is not involved with the kids at all. Even worse, he makes palns to go out of town when they are spending a weekend at his house. SO then the kids end up with their grandparents. Exactly this is happening this weekend. He has an important conference in another state on Saturday, so he and ex-wife are going, leaving oldest with her friends for the weekend, and son is coming to my house.

I really wish we could keep this out of the courts, but I do not see that happening. The boyfriend is moving with or without them. If he moves and they all stay, ex-wife will have to find a new house, new job, and actually have to work, which is something she has not done for over 2 years now. There is a lot of incentive for her to make the move.


I am calling my lawyer today and going to try to fight for full custody. I'll keep my fingers crossed.

How do you think I should handle this with the kids? Son is coming tonight and daughter will be here next Friday. Do I sit them down and discuss this with them? Do I try to point out the ramifications of them moving - hardly ever seeing us, their sister, and relatives on their mom's side? Do I point out to them it will be extrememly difficult for me, wife, and daughter to attend the extra-curricular activities as we do now?

Please offer advice. So far it's been helpful.

Please be cautious about making kids feel like they are in a tug-of-war is my only suggestion, now thats not saying the subject has to be taboo, just very carefully approached. Just be sure (I'm bet you already are) that you have many points of argument ready for court. Lots of notes to keep your facts in order.
I would say as far as discussing it with the kiddos, try to let them bring it up first, then ask very open ended questions to get them to say how they feel, be forewarned they may have already been talked to death about this topic at home and may shy away from any discussions with you on this due to that.

 

[SeaSpray]

Dear OP:

I wish it were your ex-wife on here asking us for advice on this because I'd like to tell her that *I* did the same thing; Ten years ago I moved my young DSs (they were 9 and 6 at the time) from New Jersey to Massachusetts. Granted, that's not as much of a difference as moving from PA to the west coast, but it's not local as far as seeing family back home in NJ, on a regular basis.

I'd tell her that, in retrospect, MANY days I wish I'd never moved up here. I wish I would've had my DH move to NJ instead. I regret forcing my DSs to grow up with not seeing their dad on a regular basis. I regret taking away the opportunities for my DSs to grow up seeing MY family on a regular basis. On a more personal level, I regret not being there on a daily basis when my mother was dying (I was there for 2 weeks while she was dying though).

I'd tell her that NOBODY, not even an excellent step-father can take the place of a loving father, and to move her children from seeing their father on a regular basis is NOT in the best interest of the kids, no matter what. If the father was not involved in the kids' lives, then that'd be a different story, but you are very involved.

Even though she thinks they'll have a great life if they move...and they MAY have an excellent life out on the west coast, she'll NEVER be able to go back and let her kids grow up with their father nearby.

Anyway...10 years later (my DSs are now 19 and 16) I do regret moving my DSs to another state, despite the fact that we've had (and are still having) a wonderful life in here MA. There are more important things in life, and a child growing up with their parents nearby is one of them.

My best wishes to you, I hope it all works out.




P.S. For the record, my ex-DH did NOT give me a hard time at all about moving; there was NO battle. From the time I've been divorced I've gotten along extremely well with ex-DH and I've always brought the kids to NJ several times a year and they spend the entire summers in NJ, as well as almost every holiday. (I figure, I have them all of the rest of the year, so when the kids have off, I take them to NJ). Looking back, now I kind of wish I was told that I couldn't move. lol

 

[chobie]

Keep in mind that most judges interpret the best interest of the child as not removing them from the main custodial parent. That is considered and extreme thing to do.

 

[tkd lisa]

I agree that you should petition the court for custody. Your ex-wife isn't working with you. She's made her decision and telling you to accept it. That's not compromise.

I worried a bit about this in my situation. I was separated from my ex- and had sole custody under the terms of a protective order. When he was released from jail on bond, I was afraid and moved the kids out of state. But even in that situation, WITH FULL LEGAL CUSTODY, I had my lawyer contact the judge and let the court know my intentions.

At the time of the divorce, I was living in FL, ex was in jail in MD. Judge upheld my sole custody. So unless ex- petitions the court, I can live wherever I choose.

But in your situation, every case I've ever heard like this has been decided by a judge. And in most cases, the judge says "You can move, but the kids stay here." I agree with other posters. Be factual, not emotional. Start now by creating a history of your interaction with your children. When visitation was scheduled and kept (or not kept). When special activities were attended. List everyone who was there (and not there). From what you describe, you've met every reasonable standard of involvement with your children. While your ex- hasn't been as particular. In her situation, since she sees them all the time, she probably doesn't consider it a big deal to have a weekend away. But a judge will consider that history in their decision.

Good luck!

 

[OceanAnnie]

Dear OP:

I wish it were your ex-wife on here asking us for advice on this because I'd like to tell her that *I* did the same thing; Ten years ago I moved my young DSs (they were 9 and 6 at the time) from New Jersey to Massachusetts. Granted, that's not as much of a difference as moving from PA to the west coast, but it's not local as far as seeing family back home in NJ, on a regular basis.

I'd tell her that, in retrospect, MANY days I wish I'd never moved up here. I wish I would've had my DH move to NJ instead. I regret forcing my DSs to grow up with not seeing their dad on a regular basis. I regret taking away the opportunities for my DSs to grow up seeing MY family on a regular basis. On a more personal level, I regret not being there on a daily basis when my mother was dying (I was there for 2 weeks while she was dying though).

I'd tell her that NOBODY, not even an excellent step-father can take the place of a loving father, and to move her children from seeing their father on a regular basis is NOT in the best interest of the kids, no matter what. If the father was not involved in the kids' lives, then that'd be a different story, but you are very involved.

Even though she thinks they'll have a great life if they move...and they MAY have an excellent life out on the west coast, she'll NEVER be able to go back and let her kids grow up with their father nearby.

Anyway...10 years later (my DSs are now 19 and 16) I do regret moving my DSs to another state, despite the fact that we've had (and are still having) a wonderful life in here MA. There are more important things in life, and a child growing up with their parents nearby is one of them.

My best wishes to you, I hope it all works out.




P.S. For the record, my ex-DH did NOT give me a hard time at all about moving; there was NO battle. From the time I've been divorced I've gotten along extremely well with ex-DH and I've always brought the kids to NJ several times a year and they spend the entire summers in NJ, as well as almost every holiday. (I figure, I have them all of the rest of the year, so when the kids have off, I take them to NJ). Looking back, now I kind of wish I was told that I couldn't move. lol

I have tears in my eyes and a lump in my throat. It was very nice of you to share your perspective for the OP.

 

[Darcy03231]

At this point I wouldn't discuss it with your children. Judges don't like it when parents involve the children too much. I would see my attorney and start the paperwork going to get custody and keep them here. When they ask you about it I would let them know that you don't feel its best for them to move away and leave it at that. Let them know that this is between you and your ex and that you both love them but you think its best they stay in PA.

 

[PrincessDeb]

I agree with Darcy. If the subject comes up, I would just say "I don't think it's in your best interest to move away from PA. I would also miss you terribly if you went." My ex-husband fought his 2nd ex-wife for years (I was the first ex) to try to keep her in the state. They went all the way to the state supreme court in PA. She had primary physical, all the history of doing everything for their son AND she had to move for work. If they were in your situation, I don't think that she would have won. Now they get along well which is good for everyone involved.
All I can say is document, document, document. I had my own problems with my ex but that is the topic of another thread, another time. Best of luck-

Deb

 

[elizke]

Some aquaintances just went through a case similar to this. If ever there was a shoe-in for the court to approve of mom moving, this was it.

The husband and wife lived in Texas, where all of her family lived. His job tranferred them to another state far away, and she went along. While she was pregnant with their first child, husband had an affair, and then left her for new woman. They are now married.

So the boy is born and some months pass, and the first wife, understandably, wanted to move back to Texas. There's just no good answer. Anyone could see why she wanted to go. If any case would be in the mover's favor, this would be it. He pretty much brought her up here and abandonded her, where she has no family support. But, despite obvious mistakes in other areas, Dad was a very loving and involved father, and she was denied by the court.

You sound rational and caring, and I think you are doing what you should. Of course moving sounds appealing to the teen. California sounds great and fun and maybe you'll see or become a star. For most it does not live up to expectation.

As for what to say to the kids, I would not in any way bad mouth Mom, but simply state how even though Mom wants to go and has what she sees as good reasons, they are an integral part of your family and being their dad is just too important to you. That you both love them, and although you and Mom have to work to an agreement and it may take a while, it will work out eventually.

These situations are very tough. Good luck to you.

 

[Disney Doll]

As for what to say to the kids, I would not in any way bad mouth Mom, but simply state how even though Mom wants to go and has what she sees as good reasons, they are an integral part of your family and being their dad is just too important to you. That you both love them, and although you and Mom have to work to an agreement and it may take a while, it will work out eventually.

This is very good advice.
I would contact an attorney, and start documenting what you have done with the children as far as activities, time spent etc.
Let the courts see that you are an involved father.

 

[far away in PA]

I appreciate all the advice for everyone. I espoecially liked to hear it from a mom's point of view. Only wish I could print it out for ex-wife. Then I would not have a place to vent if she knew about disboards.

It's funny about documenting everything. My wife has always encouraged me to document conversations and such, but this is seldom accomplished. My wife and I start to document when ex plays games, but then the games quit and so do we. Then the games will start up, eventually we'll start to document again.

We do have some correspondence between my attorney and her's from 5 years ago. Ex-wife tried to stop children from being in my wedding on my weekend. Seems as if in January, ex-wife promised her cousin, our son could be ring bearer in her wedding (she's his godmother). Well, in January we were talking about a few things and she said she needed the weekend in October and we could switch weekends. I said no, that was my wedding date and kids were ring bearer and flower girl in wedding. She said she promised and her cousin IS son's godmother, we had to point out that I AM son's father. It was ridiculous. We had to get our attorney to put her on notice that we intended on keeping our weekend in October to get married. Her response to it was couldn't we change date or time, so son could be in both weddings. Of course, it is so easy to change wedding date! It was terrible.

Glad we have some of that documentation.

 

[mvazul]

I appreciate all the advice for everyone. I espoecially liked to hear it from a mom's point of view. Only wish I could print it out for ex-wife. Then I would not have a place to vent if she knew about disboards.

It's funny about documenting everything. My wife has always encouraged me to document conversations and such, but this is seldom accomplished. My wife and I start to document when ex plays games, but then the games quit and so do we. Then the games will start up, eventually we'll start to document again.

We do have some correspondence between my attorney and her's from 5 years ago. Ex-wife tried to stop children from being in my wedding on my weekend. Seems as if in January, ex-wife promised her cousin, our son could be ring bearer in her wedding (she's his godmother). Well, in January we were talking about a few things and she said she needed the weekend in October and we could switch weekends. I said no, that was my wedding date and kids were ring bearer and flower girl in wedding. She said she promised and her cousin IS son's godmother, we had to point out that I AM son's father. It was ridiculous. We had to get our attorney to put her on notice that we intended on keeping our weekend in October to get married. Her response to it was couldn't we change date or time, so son could be in both weddings. Of course, it is so easy to change wedding date! It was terrible.

Glad we have some of that documentation.

I agree with keeping everything documented, but don't be disappointed if no one ever sees it. I was advised to keep everything docmented. I did and every judge I have come across (in PA and VA) refused to look at it. Most judges only want to hear what has happened in the last 6 months. Very few will go further back than that - unless in extreme circumstances.

Also, I suggest you do NOT talk to the kids about this. It's only in their best interest to not be put in the middle and feel like they have to choose. My ex would constantly talk to DS about our court order (even though he was ordered to not talk about it). He would also constantly tell him to misbehave so we wouldn't want him to live with us anymore. All it did was totally screw up my son and taught him to not trust. He is now 12, hasn't had contact with his father in a year and a half (very long story - if you're interested, PM me) and is finally beginning to trust people, again.

If the kids do ask, just be vague. I know kids can be persistent, but let them know it's something you need to work out with their mom and possibly a judge to help you make a decision. The best thing you can do is to not bring it up around them and constantly reassure them how much you love them.

Also, I have to say, from a mom who did relocate, it's not all bad. Of course, I had an ex who did not hold up his end of a court order to save his life - and I was laughed at by a judge when I tried to make him keep his visitation schedule. XH was also only concerned with being in DS's life when it suited his purposes. It sounds like you are quite the opposite.

Again, good luck!

 

[simba928]

First of all to you.

This sounds a lot like what happened with my uncle and his ex-wife. I won't go into the details here, but I will say make sure you take action now. Do what you can do to get your opinion in there. My uncle didn't do that and now he is very little, if any contact with his kids, partly because of his stubborn attitude but mostly because of his ex-wife.

Documentation is big, too. My grandma and I always went to visit my uncle's kids. In the summer we would drive 45 minutes to their house like every other week. I have pictures of that and I recently found a Christmas card from the ex-wife saying how great it was when we came to visit and how the little girl won't stop talking about it. This was sent the Christmas after they moved. A couple years ago, when we told the ex-wife that we wanted to come visit them (it had been years since any of us around here have seen the kids) she said she didn't understand why, all of a sudden, we had an interest in the kids. My grandma told her that she didn't know what she meant because we called them all the time and we visited when they lived up here. The ex-wife said "Well, I can't say thats true." Umm, good thing we have pictures and that Christmas card. Unfortunately, its hard for anything to happen at this point because of the actions (or should I say lack of) my uncle opted to take from the very beginning. I haven't talked to the kids since the we asked the ex-wife about going to visit them.

Good luck and I hope this all works out.