Ethics of Pirates

[dbanzai]

As far as I understand, Walt had his infactuation in pirates as free people, not as thieves.

Still, and as depicted in the movies, the pirates were criminals and willing and able to kill for a profit.

Yet we side with the pirates in these movies, and I too admit to loving every minute of that. But should we feel a twinge of guilt for this? Is this to some extent promoting a pirate's life?

 

[mystic_path]

Honestly how I look at it is that everyone feels greed at some point. We wouldnt be human if we werent a bit greedy, which makes us side with our favorite pirates. I mean who wouldnt want a big pile of gold? Its good in a sense though that they did keep the violence and the pirates in sort of a fantasy world which kind of brings us out of the realistic sense. Us as parents going into the movie and knowing what it is all about can judge if it will be appropriate for the younger generations to watch.

But I think it was a really great idea for them to show what pirates would have been like. I mean so many of us kinda wonder what it would have been like, so for them to depict this in the movie was brilliant.

As for the parks though its good that they made the pirates less violent and agressive so everyone of all ages can love it and not be afraid of it.

 

[blackjackdelta]

I do not see your reasoning. I do not think Walt was concerned with which is considered politcally correct these days. We pay our taxes which goes to many things that are really unethical, probably not morally correct. In the 1500-1600 AD there were not many rules where the pirates operated..this could be debated forever.

The pirate movies like most movies are escapism. People go to horror movies to be scared but they really do not want the horror experience themselves. I do not think most people sit down and look at these movies and run REAL rape, pillage, plunder, mayhem and muder in the back of their minds.

I guess Walt may have wanted people to experience the adventure of the pirate life as he invisioned, not the reality of a 16th century pirate.

Just an opinion.

Jack

 

[Albort]

id say 60% of the world population are pirates

but i dont really see much of stealling anymore. i guess they did change a little bit but everyone still loves it. in terms of the movie, i think the treasure is just a side story to boost the story itself.

 

[cgcruz]

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.... A little saying I created for life. You are free to use it in your everyday life.

 

[HydroGuy]

The pirates in POTC are romanticized pirates. There is no attempt here at history.

The ghosts in Haunted Mansion are romanticized ghosts. IMO there is no real support for witchcraft or Satanism.

The Matterhorn bobsleds are romanticized bobsleds. There is no real attempt to present the geography of the Alps.

 

[dbanzai]

My notion is not about the reality of the pirates as they are shown in the movies, it's the idea that we take sympathy with lawbreakers in this series. Especially in the first movie, where Governor Swann and Norrington are respectable men it comes to mind (I won't defend Beckett or his lot as such in the latter two movies).

I'm also not refering necessarily to the portrayals in the movie, but the characters are pirates, who consder themselves not trustworthy and willing to steal from everyone.

 

[DangerMouse]

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.... A little saying I created for life. You are free to use it in your everyday life.

You created it, huh??

You be a pirate, says I.

 

[HydroGuy]

My notion is not about the reality of the pirates as they are shown in the movies, it's the idea that we take sympathy with lawbreakers in this series. Especially in the first movie, where Governor Swann and Norrington are respectable men it comes to mind (I won't defend Beckett or his lot as such in the latter two movies).

I'm also not refering necessarily to the portrayals in the movie, but the characters are pirates, who consder themselves not trustworthy and willing to steal from everyone.

Well, we are taking sympathy with a romanticized version of pirates living in a romanticized world who are breaking laws of a romanticized superpower with a romanticized king. All in all we are having fun watching characters having fun in a romanticized world. To compare their actions to the reality of a real world with real laws and real consequences is to ruin the fun. It is escapism. Like a shoot-em-up video game. I don't see any harm.

 

[dbanzai]

Well, we are taking sympathy with a romanticized version of pirates living in a romanticized world who are breaking laws of a romanticized superpower with a romanticized king. All in all we are having fun watching characters having fun in a romanticized world. To compare their actions to the reality of a real world with real laws and real consequences is to ruin the fun. It is escapism. Like a shoot-em-up video game. I don't see any harm.

Not buying that because pirates are pirates, and I don't agree about a romaticized superpower, especially in the first movie... I also wonder how much Beckett really represented the king, but that's digging deep.

Sorry, it comes from years of being a nitpicking Trekkie, liking continuity and accepting a "romanticized" world still can (and I think should) have its feet in reality.

 

[HydroGuy]

Not buying that because pirates are pirates, and I don't agree about a romaticized superpower, especially in the first movie... I also wonder how much Beckett really represented the king, but that's digging deep.

Sorry, it comes from years of being a nitpicking Trekkie, liking continuity and accepting a "romanticized" world still can (and I think should) have its feet in reality.

Well, different strokes etc. When I go to movies I don't want reality. When I go to DLR I don't want reality. In both cases I want fun. Music, art, fun, escape, fantasy, romance.

Look at so many of Disney's stories. Happy dwarves working the mines. Witchcraft, spells and potions. Fairies, pixie dust, pirates, and red men. Fish that search for their offspring. Princes and princesses.

When we are experiencing stories of fantasy and adventure, do we really want to think about the realities behind them? Do we want to to think about how the princes and princesses existed on the backs of servants and serfs working the land (essentially slave labor)? Or about occultic influences of witches and spells? Or that fish live in a world of prey and predator where death is all around?

Well I don't. At least not when I am having fun through such movies and parks. Obviously there is a time for the serious side of all of this, and the de-romanticizing of princes, knights, pirates and gunfighters. But I will deal with all of that at another time and place.

 

[dbanzai]

FOr some/many movies I agree, and I hold different movies and TV shows to different standards depending on much/little I think the creators are trying to be in or escape reality. LotR for instance (I'm not a fan) is based in a fictional land with fictional creatures. For the most part though, PotC I feel is mythical but based in reality. And again, just as real pirates, they are stealing from law-abiding people no matter how you look at it: What did the people of Old Port Royale do to deserve the pilaging in Pirates One for instance?

I'm not sure I beleive though that Disney or movies means fantasy: Pocahontas and Snow White for instance are two animated films where one is more grounded in reality while the other is mostly in a fictional kingdom. Furthermore, I don't remember any pixies popping up to help Mark Whalberg in Invincible...

 

[ubaisore]

I would say that POTC is not based in reality..... kraken, ship that comes back from the depths, Cortez' curse, etc etc.....

this is not a movie that romantisizes anything "real" about pirates lives on the eary centuries...

 

[KatiebugsMom]

Well if you want to go to the trekky way then lets look at our own US history for accountability and realism with POTC3.

Lets say we compare the EIT to King George III vs. Pirates to American Revolutionists. One wanting sole control and the other freedom and humanity. And the King saw the Revolutionists as renegades, scoundrels and breaking every law that he commanded.

Hmmmmmm not so fantastical now is it?? Yet another literary allegory to be explored and dissected.

Anyone for debate that Will Turner is symbolism for George Washington. They both sacrificed for the greater good.

 

[photo_chick]

Walt Disney is not the only one who loves pirates.

What about Pirates the video game, which first came out like 15 years ago (the newer game is a remake of that one). You are actually playing a pirate in the game. Then there is a whole slew of games where you play gang members, probably today's equivalent to a pirate.

I am not knocking any games here, I play Pirates and GTA myself. Just wondering if watching a movie about pirates is "bad", would playing one in a game be worse?

 

[KatiebugsMom]

PS Yes I am a pirate.........100 years too late!

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

Completely unethical. I shall protest by refusing to see anything beyond Pirates of the Caribbean 15 accordingly.


I guess we can't have any movie that doesn't depict reality or glorifies law breakers. Let's see.

Snow White... Magic. Dwarves harbored a fugitive. Depicts the legit ruler, the queen as in the wrong. Can't have that. All those different jewels in the mine. Ha. Yeah right.
Anne Frank. Law Breaker. She should have turned herself in
Any movie depicting the American Revolution. Law breakers. Treason.
Dirty Harry. Overzealous law bending cop.
Lethal Weapon Same.
Gone with the wind. Southerners committed treason.
The sound of music. Running up into the hills was a no no. Disertion. Tsk Tsk. Put it on the pile to be burned.
The Fugitive. Run away and prove your innocence. Sorry. Can't watch that. He should have stayed in the bus and gotten smacked if he were a law abiding kind of role model.
Cinderella. That girl just couldn't mind her stepmother and stay in her room. No way a movie showing her getting rewarded by marrying the prince should ever make the screen.
Lilo And Stitch? Rule breakers both. Ban that movie too.
Star Trek? Nope. That's out too. They broke the Prime directive all the time. Spock even broke general order 4 (gasp) Lawless

The list goes on and on and on....

The historical reality of that time period is countries encouraged and aided piracy all the while condemning the practice. That's what a letter of marque was for. So one country's pirate was another country's privateer. The practice didn't stop completely until the 1800s. By the way, Swan and Norrington were not typical Naval officers. Most were cruel, oppressive, and quite worse than the pirates. They would make Becket look like a choirboy. Crewmen were routinely shanghaid. Those that were suckered into signing up ended up virtual slaves. And it was all with the crown's blessing of course. The cruelty and oppression would sometimes make more pirates as the crews would mutiny on occasion. This contrasted with the pirate ships which were quite democratic in comparison. By custom, there were checks and balances. These predated checks and balances in our governments. Though far from innocent, they certainly weren't any worse or better than the official governments of the time and their Navies.

I see nothing wrong with these movies. I'm not going to go out and try to rob a cruise ship any time soon

I am not knocking any games here, I play Pirates and GTA myself. Just wondering if watching a movie about pirates is "bad", would playing one in a game be worse?

You're bad. Don't you know these will cause you to go out and commit armed robbery tomorrow?

 

[teacups]

Going out on a limb here....

Do you watch the news?
Maybe "we" dont use swords these days... but in the political/business world as a whole, isnt it sort of a "I'll climb over you to get to the top" today as we live and breathe? We may do it in a clean corporate setting, or in a white house, or in a city hall meeting room... but is it really so different?

FICTION/entertainment/escape for a few hours
NONFICTION/actually happening/like it or not

Which is worse?
I know my opinion...

 

[dbanzai]

My problem with pretty much every response here is this: There still is a matter of continuity to antyhing, including these movies.

To say it's fiction or fantasy is all fine and swell, but as that seems to be a popular response than I can only assume everyone would be all fine and swell if in one scene aliens came down from space. Oh, look, cute. And it's fantasy so they can come down into the Pirate world and it all makes sense. That's what I get from anyone just writing it off as fantasy.

I don't feel that way. I couldn't be able to accept that (and tell me why fantasy people, you are or are not okay with that). I feel there is a continuity and it's steeped part in history, part in legend. There really isn't an original plotline in the series or listed here: Cursed Aztec gold, the Kraken, Davy Jones, his locker and the Flying Dutchman, all long-standing legends. As these things have all been connected to pirates as we know them, I again connect these to pirate legend and history.

There is nothing suggesting pirates are good people in this world portrayed by Disney; Nothing suggesting they are prim and proper and protectors. They pilage and rifle and loot, they are criminals. And yes, I accept the EITC as corrupt too, but not Governor Swann in CotBP.

CW4D, I'm not saying we can't depict lawbreakers in fiction and the movies... And for the record, I do not consider Anne Frank fiction as you seem to be implying by including her in that list. Also for the record, I love this series and I'm fine with cheering for the pirates. I just point out that we are rooting for the crinimals in this series and there's nothing in the movies to make me say I should change my view of who pirates were. Nor am I saying these movies will make criminals of people. I will not go political here (believe me, I'm biting my tongue ).

One more for the record, Spock broke General Order Seven to go to Talos IV. In my day I was a baaaaad Trekkie. Which is possibly why I bring this up in the first place, because of the ethics the show in all incarnations have always revolved around.

I am curious of your source for what governors and military people were like. Not that I'm contesting the notion, but of the nautical fiction I have read of the time only Billy Budd gave me a true feeling of how messed up things could be compared to others I have read.