Ethical question

[Ellie008]

Those who have no qualms about keeping the credit/money outright... here's two scenarios for you...

1) Your boss says he's going to buy your lunch and gives you $50 cash. You decide to go to McDonalds, the bill is $15. Do you give $35 back right away, wait until he asks, or say you spent it all?

2) Your kids are going out for lunch. You give them $50 cash. Do you expect change?

1) I would consider that the same as a per diem. I would not give any extra back and would be shocked if anyone asked for it. It is meant to cover your food, but if you choose to spend less on food and pocket the rest no one cares, and if you choose to eat the most expensive food you can find and it costs more than the allocated amount, no one is going to reimburse the extra either.

2) If I wanted the change I would make that clear when I handed over the money. Sometimes I expect change, sometimes I don't. Depends.

I wouldn't bother looking for a credit on a work ticket. If you want to, I would be fine with you keeping the credit. The credit is only good on a future flight. What happens if you only charge the company the lower amount but then never get a chance to use that credit? You are just out that money for no reason. Nope.

I have had flights that I had to cancel for one reason or another. I get reimbursed for the cost, since I spent the $. I get the credit, but usually it is only good for a year. Sometimes I can use that credit on a future work trip, sometimes I can't. Sometimes it just expires.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

1) I would consider that the same as a per diem. I would not give any extra back and would be shocked if anyone asked for it. It is meant to cover your food, but if you choose to spend less on food and pocket the rest no one cares, and if you choose to eat the most expensive food you can find and it costs more than the allocated amount, no one is going to reimburse the extra either.

That is an interesting connection but I can tell you it was not entirely uncommon for my husband's coworkers when he worked on power plants and was out in the field to look for places that would net them more leftover money with their per diem.

Per diem covered housing, food and other supplies, utilities and really just other random things. It was a set amount based on the location you'd be at (based on COL) and up to you to spend whatever you wanted to on it. Per diem was designed to alleviate dual expenses with back home such as mortgage, rent, utilities so if you actually relocated you were not given per diem but rather moving expenses and a COL adjustment to your income (I don't believe they reduced your income though if you went to a lower COL). Some people chose to live in low cost places just to get more of the per diem to pocket, now some did the opposite and went higher than their per diem so they had to spend out of their own pocket to bridge the gap.

Per diem does work differently based on what your company is, what you're doing, etc but just speaking towards field assignment, they never asked for any of the per diem back because that was not how it worked. Actually one of his coworkers for one of the projects she negotiated a much larger per diem in exchange for not doing TDY (which was when she would fly back home either every 2,3 or 4 weeks). That amount helped significantly on her buying a house when she got done with her assignment.

 

[Starport Seven-Five]

Can you point out where the OP said her side hustle company had billions of dollars in revenue? I don't see it anywhere in this thread.

The OP never stated how large the "organization" is that paid for the flights. Could be a small non-profit or a Fortune 500.

I was just pointing out that your comparison is likely apples to oranges as the economic scales are very different than us personally paying for the flight. To most companies, the savings on this flight are the equivalent of the leave a penny/take a penny tray.

1) I would consider that the same as a per diem. I would not give any extra back and would be shocked if anyone asked for it. It is meant to cover your food, but if you choose to spend less on food and pocket the rest no one cares, and if you choose to eat the most expensive food you can find and it costs more than the allocated amount, no one is going to reimburse the extra either.

I was thinking the same reading that example. I've traveled with a per diem and traveled where we billed actual cost of meals... I definitely ate differently when I could pocket the difference.

 

[DizneyFamof4]

OP, if you really think it is ethical to keep the extra $$ then why not just be upfront about it to the company and ask them, instead of acting sketchy about it and hoping other people will agree with you. Also, I was pretty shocked at the high % that thinks it's okay to do this on the down low without notifying the company about it. Definitely people I would never hire.
I also laughed at the reply from the question "If your boss wanted to buy your lunch that day and gave you $50 would you keep the change?" The poster said yes and compared that to a Per diem, which is ridiculous. The boss did not say here's $50 for you, he said he will buy your lunch and gave you $$ to pay for it. No one that I know would automatically think that it is okay to keep the change.

 

[prairie_girl]

The OP never stated how large the "organization" is that paid for the flights. Could be a small non-profit or a Fortune 500.

I was just pointing out that your comparison is likely apples to oranges as the economic scales are very different than us personally paying for the flight. To most companies, the savings on this flight are the equivalent of the leave a penny/take a penny tray.


I was thinking the same reading that example. I've traveled with a per diem and traveled where we billed actual cost of meals... I definitely ate differently when I could pocket the difference.

Ethics don’t care about apples or oranges.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

OP, if you really think it is ethical to keep the extra $$ then why not just be upfront about it to the company and ask them, instead of acting sketchy about it and hoping other people will agree with you. Also, I was pretty shocked at the high % that thinks it's okay to do this on the down low without notifying the company about it. Definitely people I would never hire.
I also laughed at the reply from the question "If your boss wanted to buy your lunch that day and gave you $50 would you keep the change?" The poster said yes and compared that to a Per diem, which is ridiculous. The boss did not say here's $50 for you, he said he will buy your lunch and gave you $$ to pay for it. No one that I know would automatically think that it is okay to keep the change.

Different industries are going to handle this differently and have different norms involved as well as company policies. I think the OP asked because there's ambiguity in their contract, sounds like they might need to ask around how things are handled and take whatever answer is given.

I learned a lot about how engineering and construction industry handled things with my husband being in it. It's really not something you nor anyone can judge and be like "I wouldn't hire you" well that's good for you but also not even applicable either.

How I would have handled things being at a call center for an insurance company would be vastly different than my husband and his coworkers (including his boss and his boss's boss and his boss's boss and so on) would handle it despite the question being the same because they aren't the same industry norms.

And size of company isn't always the be it all. My husband's present company has just over 100 employees whereas his prior company thousands. Certain things are handled differently such as his present company he uses his own CC his prior company a corporate but more or less a lot of the behaviors are similar in terms of expenses.

 

[pindecisive]

I work as an independent contractor as a side hustle. The organization I contract with has purchased flights for me to an event next month on Southwest. In your opinion, would it ethical of me to take advantage of any price drops between now and the flight and receive the credit to use for my own purposes?

If you purchased the tickets with your own money and were reimbursed, I would say you are due any credits or upgrades the airline might give you.

If they purchased them for you, you're not really entitled to any changes in price, they are. That being said, I highly doubt HR will care about any credits you're given for a price change, especially since it's a credit and not actual money.

To cover yourself I'd email HR and ask if taking a miles credit for a price drop is an issue, and call it a day.

 

[sam_gordon]

As far as "getting the credit back to the company", that's easier than people seem to think. Let's say the credit is $10. OP can simply deduct $10 from his invoice. OP can put in "-$10" as part of the expense report (assuming the company purchases meals while on site, put in the value of the meal - $10).

The company may be totally fine with the OP pocketing the credit for whatever reason. The "above board" thing to do would be simply notify the company.

 

[_19disnA]

Every company I've ever worked for had/has very specific rules about travel compensation, free upgrades, credits, and frequent flier points/miles, among other details.
OP, I understand that you're an independent contractor, but don't you have a contract with the company on whose behalf you are traveling? The protocol for this would be spelled out there.

I agree. Clearly this isn't the first time someone from the company where he works has traveled on business. It's like if he decided to drive instead of fly, he wouldn't get to return the ticket and pocket the difference. OP indicated the company purchased the ticket which likely to me means they would also notice if any changes were made.

 

[sam_gordon]

OP indicated the company purchased the ticket which likely to me means they would also notice if any changes were made.

Is any airline setup to notify the PURCHASER if the TRAVELLER makes a change?

 

[John VN]

Whatever the "Company's Policy" is at the time is what I would abide by. No problem since it was not my money to begin with and I see NO REASON to even think about keeping a refund difference even if I made the effort. Call me naïve or stupid, just my ethics.

 

[_19disnA]

I agree, the OP asked our OPINION and should follow whatever policy his/her company has regarding travel. I don't care to quibble with others about the exact details of what takes place at a specific company since each one probably operates differently with their own set of rules regarding travel expenses. Where I work, if you submit a travel expense report that doesn't match what the tickets cost, you will be asked to explain the reason for the variance and/or asked to resubmit with the correct figures. Doing what is right/ethical isn't about seeing how much you can get away with before anyone notices.

 

[kdonnel]

Is any airline setup to notify the PURCHASER if the TRAVELLER makes a change?

Whenever I upgraded tickets purchased through Concur, Concur and my company were aware I made a change.

It was not against company travel policy to upgrade tickets using cash, miles, or airline status so there was never an issue for me.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I agree, the OP asked our OPINION and should follow whatever policy his/her company has regarding travel. I don't care to quibble with others about the exact details of what takes place at a specific company since each one probably operates differently with their own set of rules regarding travel expenses. Where I work, if you submit a travel expense report that doesn't match what the tickets cost, you will be asked to explain the reason for the variance and/or asked to resubmit with the correct figures. Doing what is right/ethical isn't about seeing how much you can get away with before anyone notices.

You responded 3 times to a thread where you don't care to quibble with people and yet you're doing just that or more like hammering in your opinion on what is ethical or not.

Literally none of our opinions matter because as several of us have already said, yourself included, it only matters what the OP's company's rules are (which may mean it's ethical to them even if you don't find it ethical or vice versa). What is the point in telling people you don't care about debating with someone about what goes on at their company only to describe what goes on with yours?

 

[EACarlson]

Thank you all for your opinions. Some make sense, some went off on large tangents. As of right now this is all hypothetical as the price hasn't gone down.

@EACarlson, answer this... assuming there's a price drop, and SW allows you to get it... would you be willing to tell your employers you got the price drop, or would you be more willing to NOT tell them and hope they don't find out? Let's be honest, the odds of them finding out about a price drop/credit issuance are pretty low (same with the IRS).

If you would rather they don't find out about it, that says it's crossing a line for you. If you're ok with them finding out, then either ask them ahead of time... "Hey, I know SW gives flight credits if they cut the rates, do you mind if I keep an eye on pricing and get the credit?" Or ask them when you see a price drop... "Hey, the ticket has dropped in price $25. I know SW policy is the credit goes to the traveler, they don't do refunds, do you mind if I take advantage?" If they say "fine", you're good. If they say "no", then leave well enough alone.

If you don't feel comfortable even asking the question, then don't look for price drops.

My primary purpose in posting this here was to determine if my thought process was way off base in even thinking about it. If the results would have been 90/10 I wouldn't even ask. If I find a drop I will call the travel co-ordinator and ask the question.

Do they already pay you for this trip. or do you bill them for all expenses at the end.. if at the end and you show them the orginnal price that is wrong most likely legally and ethinially. if they already paid. I would do it and if you get cash, not credit use that money for expenses pertaining to their account.

I get paid based on work done during the event. I do not get reimbursed for any expenses. They cover my flight, hotel, transportation and lunch. I cover everything else.

If you purchased the tickets with your own money and were reimbursed, I would say you are due any credits or upgrades the airline might give you.

If they purchased them for you, you're not really entitled to any changes in price, they are. That being said, I highly doubt HR will care about any credits you're given for a price change, especially since it's a credit and not actual money.

To cover yourself I'd email HR and ask if taking a miles credit for a price drop is an issue, and call it a day.

If it were possible for them to get the credit or money back I would agree with you, however with SW this is not possible.

I think I've reached my conclusion. If I see a price drop, I will call and see if there is a policy. If I don't, I will ask about it when I get to the event next month.

 

[dvcgirl67]

I have often paid my own money to upgrade tickets purchased by my employer but have never taken advantage of any potential price drops.

My husband does this when he has to fly EWR to SEA. Company policy is that everyone flies coach and he upgrades to premium economy on our dime, or whatever they call it on the new 737-800 max planes. Even in premium, he hates the seats and says the upgrading to business wouldn't be worth it....because, same seat, tiny bit wider, with more incline (but not lie-flat). He doesn't have to travel much at all, and he complains the least of anyone I've ever met, but man he hates those seats. He's thin and fit, so it's not his size, just says it's a terribly designed seat.

As to the original question, it feels a little "iffy" to me. Not exactly unethical, but a little sketchy at the the same time.

 

[Robber Baron]

I work as an independent contractor as a side hustle. The organization I contract with has purchased flights for me to an event next month on Southwest. In your opinion, would it ethical of me to take advantage of any price drops between now and the flight and receive the credit to use for my own purposes?

Is there a reason you don't want to ask the company you contract with?

 

[sam_gordon]

Is there a reason you don't want to ask the company you contract with?

Sometimes it helps to read an entire thread before replying.