Epcot, AK and DHS have been slow all summer?

[OnSpaceshipEarth]

@Robbi

Even though I am talking about how well Universal is doing and how shaky Disney's performance is these days...I still LOVE WDW much more than Universal.

 

[Robbi]

@Robbi

Even though I am talking about how well Universal is doing and how shaky Disney's performance is these days...I still LOVE WDW much more than Universal.

That's where we part ways.

 

[sheetz]

Having a lot more hotels that are more than half-empty(Disney) or having just a few that are fully booked year-round(Universal).

Which is a healthier state to be in?

A good example to illustrate this is Disneyland Paris. Even though it's probably the #1 attraction in Europe it has never turned a profit. Not saying WDW is in the same boat but it goes to show that there are more important numbers than attendance.

 

[Vidia2]

I remember a few years ago when we didn't care if we ever went to Universal but then they built the Harry Potter section. We made the "other" parks about one third of our trip that year. We stayed at the Nickelodeon Hotel which is a partner hotel and had characters several times a day. How often do you see a character at a Disney hotel unless it's a character meal? The Nick Hotel has a great pool in comparison to Disney pools, even the deluxe ones, IMO.

Now Universal has the new Transformers ride and what does WDW have that's new? The Little Mermaid ride? Maybe the Dwarf ride will be okay but it won't be Transformers.

I just think that they are a bit out of touch. They have the rights to Avengers, I would think that they'd consider doing something with that instead of Avatar.

Also, the new Fantasyland is very poorly done. After eating in BOG our son pointed to the castle up on the mountain and said, "when are we going to go in there?" They didn't even get the forced perspective right.

Sorry, but a lot of Disney stuff is hyped to death and lately seems to disappoint, even the movies, with the exception of Wreck-It-Ralph.

I've been a huge Disney fan for years and was one of the fangirls but lately, not so much.

Aside from crowds, lines, bad food, disappointing "new" rides, my other complaint is no loyalty at all. I really feel like they're saying, "If you don't like it go someplace else." I'm sure they wouldn't miss me but I don't think I'm the only one who feels this way.

We loved WDW the first time and all the other times have been trying to get that feeling back and it's never worked. It becomes a never ending series of do-overs, chasing the perfect WDW trip. The problem is that as we get better at finding ways to tour the parks, navigate the crowds, finding the right time of year to go, etc., Disney is working on another screw to throw into the works. I feel like we in a constant circle of downgrades, always having to pay more for less. I'm no business expert but this seems like bad business.

 

[Robbi]

I remember a few years ago when we didn't care if we ever went to Universal but then they built the Harry Potter section. We made the "other" parks about one third of our trip that year. We stayed at the Nickelodeon Hotel which is a partner hotel and had characters several times a day. How often do you see a character at a Disney hotel unless it's a character meal? The Nick Hotel has a great pool in comparison to Disney pools, even the deluxe ones, IMO.

Now Universal has the new Transformers ride and what does WDW have that's new? The Little Mermaid ride? Maybe the Dwarf ride will be okay but it won't be Transformers.

I just think that they are a bit out of touch. They have the rights to Avengers, I would think that they'd consider doing something with that instead of Avatar.

Also, the new Fantasyland is very poorly done. After eating in BOG our son pointed to the castle up on the mountain and said, "when are we going to go in there?" They didn't even get the forced perspective right.

Sorry, but a lot of Disney stuff is hyped to death and lately seems to disappoint, even the movies, with the exception of Wreck-It-Ralph.

I've been a huge Disney fan for years and was one of the fangirls but lately, not so much.

Aside from crowds, lines, bad food, disappointing "new" rides, my other complaint is no loyalty at all. I really feel like they're saying, "If you don't like it go someplace else." I'm sure they wouldn't miss me but I don't think I'm the only one who feels this way.

We loved WDW the first time and all the other times have been trying to get that feeling back and it's never worked. It becomes a never ending series of do-overs, chasing the perfect WDW trip. The problem is that as we get better at finding ways to tour the parks, navigate the crowds, finding the right time of year to go, etc., Disney is working on another screw to throw into the works. I feel like we in a constant circle of downgrades, always having to pay more for less. I'm no business expert but this seems like bad business.

Great post-you nailed it.

 

[beer dave]

I remember a few years ago when we didn't care if we ever went to Universal but then they built the Harry Potter section. We made the "other" parks about one third of our trip that year. We stayed at the Nickelodeon Hotel which is a partner hotel and had characters several times a day. How often do you see a character at a Disney hotel unless it's a character meal? The Nick Hotel has a great pool in comparison to Disney pools, even the deluxe ones, IMO.

Now Universal has the new Transformers ride and what does WDW have that's new? The Little Mermaid ride? Maybe the Dwarf ride will be okay but it won't be Transformers.

I just think that they are a bit out of touch. They have the rights to Avengers, I would think that they'd consider doing something with that instead of Avatar.

Disney does not have the rights to avengers in FL


Also, the new Fantasyland is very poorly done. After eating in BOG our son pointed to the castle up on the mountain and said, "when are we going to go in there?" They didn't even get the forced perspective right.

If your son thought the castle was real and he could go inside it, they got the perspective right

Sorry, but a lot of Disney stuff is hyped to death and lately seems to disappoint, even the movies, with the exception of Wreck-It-Ralph.

I've been a huge Disney fan for years and was one of the fangirls but lately, not so much.

Aside from crowds, lines, bad food, disappointing "new" rides, my other complaint is no loyalty at all. I really feel like they're saying, "If you don't like it go someplace else." I'm sure they wouldn't miss me but I don't think I'm the only one who feels this way.

We loved WDW the first time and all the other times have been trying to get that feeling back and it's never worked.

Yup-- it's like an addiction.

It becomes a never ending series of do-overs, chasing the perfect WDW trip. The problem is that as we get better at finding ways to tour the parks, navigate the crowds, finding the right time of year to go, etc., Disney is working on another screw to throw into the works.

I think the plan is to even the playing field for the people who don't go every year

I feel like we in a constant circle of downgrades, always having to pay more for less. I'm no business expert but this seems like bad business.

I agree to some extent, but no prices ever go down.

 

[Vidia2]

I agree to some extent, but no prices ever go down.

Thanks for the Avengers info. I guess I'll have to let that one go.

My son had just been in the "castle" restaurant (BOG) but it didn't look like it to him, or to me. It didn't seem to connect to the restaurant visually. It looked small and very far away, unlike Hogwarts at Universal, which I think was done right. It actually looks like you are going into Hogwarts.

I realize that the prices don't go down but we've had to downgrade our Disney vacations every year even though our vacation budget has gone up. Of course we expect to pay more every year but we don't expect to pay a lot more every year and receive not only a lot less but also the attitude that if we don't like it we should go someplace else. Where's the pixie dust in that?

I can barely fit in my wallet all of the customer rewards cards that I have to get discounts and free stuff and these companies do get my repeat business. We spend thousands of dollars on Disney vacations every year and I've gotta pilfer around the internet to see if there's a code for some small discount during one month out of the year.

You're right. It's just like an addiction.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Great post-you nailed it.

I would have to agree...

especially the thing about the quality of the fantasyland "expansion"...
It was done ok/average. Not bad but not overly impressive...

not up to old Disney standards...and the reason it got some "rave" reviews last year is probably more because of how far the bar had been lowered by bad ride systems and failed expansions...Everest and chester and hester's leaping immediately to mind...along with mission space and the giant blackhole formerly known as "Imagination"

 

[lockedoutlogic]

i don't keep track of disneys earnings, but i think they are still making money hand over fist, and although we all complain here ( and with good reason) about no improvements and such, people have not stopped going to these parks.

Also i couldn't imagine anyone spending a 7 day vacation at universal, let alone the 2 weekers from overseas. Universal is definitely moving up at a rapid rate, but they are still eons behind on being a week long destination resort.

I have no statistics to back this up. It is just my opinion.

stop stealing my thoughts!!!!

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I think OnSpaceShip Earth is correct as far as Universal becoming a destination resort. After our first stay in 2004, we were hooked. I'm friends with a bunch of women from the DIS off the board and all but one of them has taken a few trips with their families expressly to stay at Universal. We have taken side trips to Disney. Last year my daughter, her friend, and I flew in for 4 nights and especially for Halloween Horror Nights. One night we went to MNSSHP but that was it for WDW.

Universal will never beat Disney in numbers. Disney has 4 huge parks and a bazillion hotel roooms. Uni has beaten it though in terms of technology used in it's attractions- oh and the special effects actually work on their rides. It also has it beat when it comes to onsite resorts. The rooms are very nice, the staffs are superb, the restaurants top notch, and the ability to walk to the parks cannot be beat.

I probably don't have to say where im going here...but i'll do it anyway...

the big, fundamental difference is what you are admitting in the bold statements above...

there are many now...more than before that go to universal as the "main" part of their trip...
...but they almost always leak down I-4 and back into Daddy's arms for at least some portion of their travel.

The problem for this argument is that are 100 or maybe even 1000x more people that park it at LBV and don't leak up to universal. That relationship is a microcosm of the real picture in Orlando.

That is the problem if you are pushing the "universal's catching up" argument - they are still ultimately nipping at the margins.

I've used this before but i'll do it again:
If you don't switch your brain on as a consumer...you consider UPS/FedEx, Coke/Pepsi, Walmart/Target, Home Depot/Lowes as near equal competitors...
but all those competitions are blowouts...not even close. UPS is 80% of the market...coke is something like 65-70%...walmarts domination is massive. The consumer is convinced of the illusion...like the floating head in the haunted mansion...but its perception.
Such is WDW/UOR

 

[OnSpaceshipEarth]

stop stealing my thoughts!!!!

It's not becoming a "week-long destination resort", but what it *is* becoming is a resort that many are making a point of spending two to three days at, staying at their hotels(or other non-Disney hotels) and scaling back their Disney visit to the MK and DTD solely and skipping the three other Disney parks.

That is substantial and unprecedented.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

It's not becoming a "week-long destination resort", but what it *is* becoming is a resort that many are making a point of spending two to three days at, staying at their hotels(or other non-Disney hotels) and scaling back their Disney visit to the MK and DTD solely and skipping the three other Disney parks.

That is substantial and unprecedented.

But still results in a 3-1 basic advantage...which is the whole ballgame.

enjoy the camero...while the Ferrari goes by at 160


And to be clear...I am NOT a Disney apologist and i'm highly critical of what is becoming cutthroat pricing on a delusional level without proper construction to justify it...which is in any one of what seems like a billion posts at this point...

BUT...the economic dominance of WDW over universal and seaworld is the truth. It...like science...is an economic fact...not a matter of "opinion". WDW built that city...and any decline or withdrawal would absolutely cripple if not outright destroy it. don't fool yourself.

If Disney can make one or two good star wars movies, puts together an expansion capitalizing on that within a reasonable timeframe, and succeeds in making downtown Disney not only a travel money maker, but attract a local market...
then they will kill universal's momentum with a stranglehold to the throat.

Do I have confidence that will happen? not at all.
but if they bother to pay to high enough people to pull it off? I am 100% positive in the effect it will have on the florida/east coast market.

 

[beer dave]

stop stealing my thoughts!!!!

I learned it by watching you!

 

[beer dave]

I can barely fit in my wallet all of the customer rewards cards that I have to get discounts and free stuff and these companies do get my repeat business. We spend thousands of dollars on Disney vacations every year and I've gotta pilfer around the internet to see if there's a code for some small discount during one month out of the year.

You're right. It's just like an addiction.

Sounds like you are ripe for the DVC picking. You must assimilate.

 

[OnSpaceshipEarth]

But still results in a 3-1 basic advantage...which is the whole ballgame.

@lockedoutlogic

With all due respect, how is Universal having *TWO* busy parks(IOA is insanely busy), fully booked hotels and packed restaurants at a 3-to-1 disadvantage to Disney's *ONE* busy park and resorts that are 1/3 full. Is it because when all is said Disney has more guests? But at what cost? They are spread out over 42 square miles with multiple more cast members having to service and upkeep the grounds.

I look forward to your response. Not because I want to be combative, but because I would just like an explanation. I *know* you say it's all about "merchandise"...but come on...they are having to cover a lot more overhead with all of that property!

 

[lockedoutlogic]

@lockedoutlogic

With all due respect, how is Universal having *TWO* busy parks(IOA is insanely busy), fully booked hotels and packed restaurants at a 3-to-1 disadvantage to Disney's *ONE* busy park and resorts that are 1/3 full. Is it because when all is said Disney has more guests? But at what cost? They are spread out over 42 square miles with multiple more cast members having to service and upkeep the grounds.

I look forward to your response. Not because I want to be combative, but because I would just like an explanation. I *know* you say it's all about "merchandise"...but come on...they are having to cover a lot more overhead with all of that property!

hmmm...this could be fun

Hold on, I'll get back to you...I have to go back and pull some numbers. This is a discussion of numbers (80%nor so)...not perception

But if you want to check the merchandise thing...a good place to start is the Walt Disney company annual stockholder report...
Funny thing about public stock selling companies is that they do have to release alot.

 

[OnSpaceshipEarth]

hmmm...this could be fun

Hold on, I'll get back to you...I have to go back and pull some numbers. This is a discussion of numbers (80%nor so)...not perception

But if you want to check the merchandise thing...a good place to start is the Walt Disney company annual stockholder report...
Funny thing about public stock selling companies is that they do have to release alot.

Once again...I think I know where you are going with this. I just wonder how Disney comes out a "winner" when they have at least 5 times the land and resorts *plus parks* and only ONE of the parks is consistently busy and most of their resorts are at least half empty and Universal has two parks(one is almost always packed) and three hotels that are booked for months.

Disney has THREE parks that are almost near-dead through most of the year.

 

[OnSpaceshipEarth]

As we wait for lockedoutlogic to pull up his "numbers" I want to reiterate...Disney may beat Universal because of it's exponentially greater amount of hotels and parks. Still...what Universal has is increasingly packed...parks...restaurants...resorts.

When you are smaller but always near capacity(Universal) or larger and always 1/3 full(Disney) I can't see how Disney is winning.

Can you IMAGINE the COST of all of those near-empty properties as opposed to Universal's limited but packed properties?

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Once again...I think I know where you are going with this. I just wonder how Disney comes out a "winner" when they have at least 5 times the land and resorts *plus parks* and only ONE of the parks is consistently busy and most of their resorts are at least half empty and Universal has two parks(one is almost always packed) and three hotels that are booked for months.

Disney has THREE parks that are almost near-dead through most of the year.

I'm sure you do know where I'm going with this...

And unfortunately the 30 seconds I spent looking after my kids went to bed shows the numbers are much worse than I thought/ remembered...

But I'll elaborate...just can't right this second ( work, schmurk)

But just a preview:

The "1/3 full hotels" is the ball that has been hit completely off the course... That can't be serious...

The overall attendance idea is waayyyyy off... Those three "dead parks" still average 2-4 million more visitors per year than the two "smokin" universal parks... Those numbers are pretty easy to find. The magic kingdom destroys them all.

And the numbers on merch are near shocking...annual revenue from merch is equal to everything else (for the parks Disney owns... Anaheim, Orlando, and about 50% of Marne a la Vallee)...
What is hidden in that is nearly all the overhead is under the "other category"...and the reality is that even if that is a bit of a shell game... And it probably is... The junk shops sell things built by automation and sweatshop labor in china... Shipped en masse back to the US with no tariffs ( thanks to 50 years of moron politicians on BOTH sides of the isle who are bought and paid for by those that have the money and need no more) and is sold by the minimum number of minimum wage employees possible ( or even less if they are college program... Boy, that's an interesting story)...the result is probably 75-80% profit on the low end... It has been estimated as high as 95%.
As Mel brooks said "where the REAL money is made"...satire and many stereotypes are often based in truth...there is usually fire behind the smoke.

You have a point on size and overhead costs... Definitely more and issue at WDW... But the numerical offsets make that a small thorn in the side... Not enough to bring down the horse.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

When you are smaller but always near capacity(Universal) or larger and always 1/3 full(Disney) I can't see how Disney is winning.
?

Probably should ease off that 1/3 full stance... First off, it's relative and not what's important... Second, it's also incorrect.

Even after Harry potter...the universal parks barely cut into the disparity.

Now I give them alot of credit...and that goes to Comcast and the Roberts family - who have no fear of Disney. But at the same time, every Comcast subscriber wants them out of business tomorrow...and as soon as the government and technology allows it... They will be. Everyone hates the cable company.

This notion of "1/3 full" is the ultimate red herring. Wdw parks could never operate if they were at capacity each day... You're talking about 100 million people annually. They couldn't supply to handle the strain and have no shot of pulling off that much labor in Orlando. If universal was "full" you're looking at somewhere around 30 (a guess... But an educated one based on size and their numbers currently in their first real "boom" period)

There's your 1/3.

Coincidentally interbrand just released its annual top 100 worldwide brands list today... Which is a complex and authoritative formula that you can bank on " literally"... And the evidence is damning there too.
Neither Comcast, nor
Universal, nor NBC would be expected on there ( 2 of the three are us only )...

But first is apple, second is google, third coke, Microsoft/windows, Exxon, etc etc

Long story short - too late - there
Are 3 brands that are in entertainment...

Sony is about #60...MTV ( a little surprising)...is #78.

Guess who's 14? Behind only the largest tech companies, cars, coke and McDonald's... Way ahead of walmart.
I couldn't even make up the size of the Disney juggernaut if I WANTED to... I couldn't dream up numbers that big. Gonna have to give the benefit on this.

And I still haven't gotten the calculator out to look at the numbers.

If your stance is that universal makes more pound for pound... That is a reasonable hypothesis.
But it's wrong because the merchandise advantage blows any loss due to size of the operation out of the water. Remember that Disney takes the lions share of the revenue from marvel IN IOA as well. Talk about profit... Literally 100% profit.

Just check an overhead compartment on ANY flight out of OIA to any destination on any day...
The evidence is damning and completely predictable.

And on and on