Empty Sites at the Fort

[mnsprk]

My husband does not agree with my theory on all the empty sites and the screwy reservation system. Let's see who might agree with me on this....

I think that someone, somewhere in Disney wants to justify closing the Fort. What better way to justify closing it than if bookings severely drop, and thus, a perceived loss of interest? The Fort might have been one of Walt's resort ideas, but Walt hasn't run the company since the 60's and his heirs no longer sit on the board of directors. So...why keep Walt's "dream" alive when there is more money to be made by building either another DVC or a resort. The Fort sits on some prime real estate and all the bean counters know there is more money to be made on hotel rooms than on camp sites. It's just my opinion, and I have nothing to base this on other than a jaded, gut feeling.

Then why all the upgrades on the "PREMIUM" sites? That would have been a lot of money "peed" down the drain..

 

[des1954]

Then why all the upgrades on the "PREMIUM" sites? That would have been a lot of money "peed" down the drain..

They didn't lose a cent widening & deepening the sites. The real $$$ needs to be spent replacing the infrastructure, but they are only patching it as it breaks. Concrete is a cheap upgrade. The picnic tables needed replacing anyway. And, the pool upgrade and spa added to the cabin pool were very marginal upgrades. I don't know if you recall the pool at the Poly before they upgraded it, or not. Now, THAT was an upgrade. It is a whole new, super-duper, super themed pool that is double in size from the original.

Besides, the money they spent "improving" the Fort was mostly written off on the taxes. This has been the only "major" (if you want to call it major) work done to the Fort since it opened in 1971.

 

[SCtigercock]

They didn't lose a cent widening & deepening the sites. The real $$$ needs to be spent replacing the infrastructure, but they are only patching it as it breaks. Concrete is a cheap upgrade. The picnic tables needed replacing anyway. And, the pool upgrade and spa added to the cabin pool were very marginal upgrades. I don't know if you recall the pool at the Poly before they upgraded it, or not. Now, THAT was an upgrade. It is a whole new, super-duper, super themed pool that is double in size from the original.

Besides, the money they spent "improving" the Fort was mostly written off on the taxes. This has been the only "major" (if you want to call it major) work done to the Fort since it opened in 1971.

What major improvements should be done? Cable was ran to all sites, sites were reworked and improved. Granted water and sewer issues crop up, but they do in most areas. So how would dumping loads of money improve the Fort? What should change?

I am one of those bean counters and I don't see how they could improve on things drastically. I would like to see more vegetation, but that takes time.

The Fort is probably a cash cow for Disney. Compare the budget for maintenance at a hotel vs. The Fort. I imagine the Fort has a better rate of return than most of the other resorts.

Note, I am not affiliated with Disney, these are my opinions only and I did not sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night so I don't know anything.

 

[tderonne]

Back to the topic....

I think a lot of the empty sites is due to the reservation policy of no charge cancellations up to 5 days in advance, and being able to "change" a reservation up to the day of arrival.

You couldn't get reservations for Christmas months leading up to it. But around the first week of December (5 days out for a lot of reservations) you could book any site for the 12th or so right up to New Year's Eve.

Not saying I want this problem "fixed", nor proposing a solution. If Disney finds this works best for them, so be it.

(The 200 loop closure may have blocked out some reservations in the last week or so, but I was looking around the 12th, just before it closed.)

 

[Bdawgsc]

Hey Everyone... Just my $0.02 worth.

I usually head north and spend NYE with friends in the Charlotte area, but I decided that I didn't want to do that this year. As an alternative, I thought I'd check the Fort... not that I'd ever got a NYE reservation.

WRONG

I could have any site type I wanted, but there's a catch. $89/night for a PARTIAL.

Now, I'm not cheap, but $89/night for a PARTIAL HOOKUP SITE?!? Wow. No thanks. I agree they've finally topped out on the rates. At that price, I can imagine there'd be a lot of availability.

 

[des1954]

What major improvements should be done? Cable was ran to all sites, sites were reworked and improved. Granted water and sewer issues crop up, but they do in most areas. So how would dumping loads of money improve the Fort? What should change?

I am one of those bean counters and I don't see how they could improve on things drastically. I would like to see more vegetation, but that takes time.

The Fort is probably a cash cow for Disney. Compare the budget for maintenance at a hotel vs. The Fort. I imagine the Fort has a better rate of return than most of the other resorts.

Note, I am not affiliated with Disney, these are my opinions only and I did not sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night so I don't know anything.

To your last statement!!!

I don't know how long you have been visiting the Fort, so excuse me in advance if I treat you as somewhat of a newcomer to the Fort. My DH & I have been regular visitors (like 4 times a year or more) since 1974.

There was tons of vegetation at the Fort prior to 2008. They cleared it all out and IMHO, ruined the look of the Fort. They claimed the potato vines were non-native, invasive vegetation and need removing. Yet when you go over the bridge near the 1400 loop and look to the undeveloped side, the vines are as wild as ever. (So much for the invasive theory) The larger pads were needed to accommodate newer 45' MH's with slides and awnings. Too bad they were about 6 years behind the times with that upgrade.

In 2004 three back to back hurricanes took out most of the nuisance trees in the Fort and because Disney is self-insured, the clean up cost, again, was a tax write off.

There are a lot of improvements that could be made to the Fort. There is an overwhelming need and request for pull-through sites. Disney could very easily have done that when they were upgrading the now premium loops. Cable TV is a very cheap upgrade - so I don't even consider that an upgrade. If they wanted to put in something to further accommodate guests and justify the very high rates, they could have included free wi-fi hot spots through out the Fort that could be hit from your site. Another item that lots of people have been crying out for is a real Food Court. When they re-furbished the pool, in all reality, they should have doubled the size. While they were at it, the hot tub they installed at Meadows is a joke. What does it hold, 10 people maybe 12 people?

The infrastructure at the Fort is going on 40 years old. The 100, 200, 300 & 700 loops are always suffering from water breaks & sewer breaks. When they upgraded 700 to a premium loop, that would have been the time to repair the infrastructure. You know, get it all done at one time. They recently had to evacuate the 200 loop and the back end of 300 due to a sewer breakage. I heard (but don't know for sure) that, in typical Fort style, they patched it back together and didn't enact a more suitable repair.

I will agree that the Fort is most certainly a "cash cow", and has been for years. The Fort has always been treated as the "red-headed stepchild" of the resorts, though.

 

[SCtigercock]

:I don't know how long you have been visiting the Fort, so excuse me in advance if I treat you as somewhat of a newcomer to the Fort. My DH & I have been regular visitors (like 4 times a year or more) since 1974.

There was tons of vegetation at the Fort prior to 2008. They cleared it all out and IMHO, ruined the look of the Fort. They claimed the potato vines were non-native, invasive vegetation and need removing. Yet when you go over the bridge near the 1400 loop and look to the undeveloped side, the vines are as wild as ever. (So much for the invasive theory) The larger pads were needed to accommodate newer 45' MH's with slides and awnings. Too bad they were about 6 years behind the times with that upgrade.

In 2004 three back to back hurricanes took out most of the nuisance trees in the Fort and because Disney is self-insured, the clean up cost, again, was a tax write off.

There are a lot of improvements that could be made to the Fort. There is an overwhelming need and request for pull-through sites. Disney could very easily have done that when they were upgrading the now premium loops. Cable TV is a very cheap upgrade - so I don't even consider that an upgrade. If they wanted to put in something to further accommodate guests and justify the very high rates, they could have included free wi-fi hot spots through out the Fort that could be hit from your site. Another item that lots of people have been crying out for is a real Food Court. When they re-furbished the pool, in all reality, they should have doubled the size. While they were at it, the hot tub they installed at Meadows is a joke. What does it hold, 10 people maybe 12 people?

The infrastructure at the Fort is going on 40 years old. The 100, 200, 300 & 700 loops are always suffering from water breaks & sewer breaks. When they upgraded 700 to a premium loop, that would have been the time to repair the infrastructure. You know, get it all done at one time. They recently had to evacuate the 200 loop and the back end of 300 due to a sewer breakage. I heard (but don't know for sure) that, in typical Fort style, they patched it back together and didn't enact a more suitable repair.

I will agree that the Fort is most certainly a "cash cow", and has been for years. The Fort has always been treated as the "red-headed stepchild" of the resorts, though.

I started camping at the Fort in 72 if you count when I was in my mom's tummy wummy. 73 if not. We went every year at least once until HS graduation then on average about every 2-3 years.

I was shocked about the vegetation when I came down this year for the first time as an adult in my hubby and my RV. The last time at the Fort was December 2000 prior to that. So hurricanes and potatoes are to blame for the reduced vegetation? #$%^ tator winds!

As far as Wi-Fi I can't agree more. It should cost less than the hard wiring of cable throughout the Fort.

I would like more counter service choices for sure, but being a “bean counter", I just don't see if it can be justified. Unfortunately/Fortunately, campers are an eclectic bunch. I.e. some are going to cook to save money and b/c they can and others may not. However, the price of the breakfast at TE floored me. We ate there once for breakfast, cooked all other days except when we went to Kona Cafe. We can get GREAT coffee at the Kona Cafe and have sit down service for the price of two buffets at TE. Is the breakfast buffet at TE the same price as other buffets around the property? It seemed high since it wasn't even a character breakfast. Does TE charge higher due to not as many people going. Catch 22?

No doubt the infrastructure (sewer and water) is having issues. As you stated it is 40 years old (^&*! that makes ME feel old).

As far as the pull through sites, I can see why some people want them. We are in a 25 foot class C, so would be overkill for us. I just wonder, that with all the stakes and surveying being done if 100/200 may not be reconfigured for that. Imagine what Disney would charge though for those sites. I imagine they would have to lose some sites in the reconfiguration, but that would relieve stress on the water and sewer in that area.

I agree the pool should have been expanded. However, IF there is to be new construction next door and they build a LARGE water area for it, I wonder if Disney didn't take that into consideration.

Now to the tax write off comments. Nothing wrong with getting the most out of your money. I sure am not giving the MAN, more of my hard earned money than I legally have to. And I really don't expect Disney to either. In fact if they did, and I owned stock, I would be screaming out loud. And I do mean LOUD. And even if they wrote it off, doesn’t mean they didn't see the expenses. Just means they saved on sending the check to the IRS. But money out the door is still money out the door.

We have reservations next December at the Fort. However, we were hoping to stay into the following week-end, but since they decided to jack up the cost $20/night starting then we rescheduled. I can only justify so much $ per night, but when I feel I am getting taken advantage of, I tell them to shove it by not going. And honestly I am at that point, that if I don't get a discount later this year, I may still tell them to shove it for the entire reservation.

I've enjoyed the discussion and value your points/opinions/ideas. Tator Winds huh? Maybe I should bring a tator gun next time............

 

[DisCamper]

I bet all of the upgrades to the sites and pool were paid for the first holiday season $116 a night goes a long way. There were very few changes to the 1975 pool. If Disney really wants to upgrade add a place where I can get food after 10pm. IMO I think they are getting ready to move the Fort they are just buying time until they do it.
Debbie I’m with all you on everything

 

[SCtigercock]

IMO I think they are getting ready to move the Fort they are just buying time until they do it.

Second comment about moving the Fort. To where?

 

[des1954]

In all honesty, I have never heard a word about moving the Fort...ever...and I know a few life-long CM's that work at the Fort. (Carlos, Pat, Josie, Ken)

I think a Food Court would be a big hit at a resort that has boodles of cabins filled with Disney Express people brought in from the Orlando Airport and not renting cars. A lot of week-ender's (which pack the Fort on the weekends) would rather not cook & would welcome someplace to pick up a late night snack when coming back from a park, or some good lunch options besides a buffet. I, for one, hate to cook when I'm there for just a weekend & would love something other than T.E.

Trail's End is very over-priced and offers meager selections when you compare that buffet to the Crystal Palace, Cape May, O'Hana's (Dave's favorite), and some of the other buffets on site.

My DH says that we should be glad we knew the Fort "when". There is a whole generation of first time Fort guests that never got to see the really neat stuff like the train, roosters, peacocks, and the chuck wagon. When we first started camping, each site was "carved out" of the foliage and the sites were paved with asphalt, not concrete.

I guess my point about the tax write off is that in the end, Disney didn't really put out any $$$ - and yes - that's just good business.

All in all, I still love the Fort & Disney continues to get my money - which proves they are a lot smarter than I!!

 

[Disneefun]

Could some of the vacancies have been from the ever-controversial people who book a site for on site privileges and then don't use it, but rather stay off site?

 

[ntsammy5]

They make hamburger from cow. I don't think WDW cares a fat rat's behind about FW. Its contibution to the bottom line is infinitesimal

 

[SCtigercock]

I agree my memories as a kid are grander than reality this past July. I think my biggest disappointment was the lack of foliage and the cost of TE. We had a great time in the heat. Our plans are to enjoy a week next December with only going in the parks one or two days. The others resting and spending time with our dog during the day and resort hopping or downtown Disney in the evenings. Hoping to catch golf cart parades and fellow fiends.
But if we have to cancel due to work commitments or family obligations we will. I DO believe people have similar feelings and some abuse the system leading to late cancelations. I bet more people book site only reservations versus packages allowing cancelations without penalty.
And I think the economy and uncertain times play a factor too.

 

[SCtigercock]

They make hamburger from cow. I don't think WDW cares a fat rat's behind about FW. Its contibution to the bottom line is infinitesimal

Lol

I may be wrong, but I would love to see a cost analysis of FW and say Wilderness Lodge.

I imagine the cost of cast members prepping the sites and maintaining sites is less than hotel housekeeping. Maintenance is probably equal if not less.

How many camp sites are assigned compared to cabins daily to the cleaning staff?

I'll take my analytical bean counting Fort luvin self and go watch football. Nice discussing with everyone. I'm just jealous y'all get to go more often. Nighty night. Don't let the chiggers bite.

 

[BradyBz12]

Don't let the chiggers bite.

*bleeping* chiggers! I'm still scratching a couple of bites from almost a month ago.

 

[AuburnJen92]

I'll take chiggers over yellow flies anyday

 

[DisCamper]

Michael Eisner talked about it in the 80’s 90’s he was not big on camping and didn’t see the need for prime real estate being used for camping. This came as Disney started their mass expansion of the resort. It was said he looked at the fort and how no one staying there can look out there window and see the beautiful lake view. He then said that would make a great place for a resort. We have a lot of property we can move the campground anywhere on this property.

 

[dfchelbay]

Michael Eisner talked about it in the 80’s 90’s he was not big on camping and didn’t see the need for prime real estate being used for camping. This came as Disney started their mass expansion of the resort. It was said he looked at the fort and how no one staying there can look out there window and see the beautiful lake view. He then said that would make a great place for a resort. We have a lot of property we can move the campground anywhere on this property.

The same Michael Eisner that thought animation was dead and a thing of the past, and Disney should not be wasting any time with that nonsense anymore...thank God for Frank Wells...and Roy.

 

[manning]

The same Michael Eisner that thought animation was dead and a thing of the past, and Disney should not be wasting any time with that nonsense anymore...thank God for Frank Wells...and Roy.

And said they couldn't afford to build Splash Mountain and thankfully was overruled by Frank Wells who said they couldn't afford NOT to build it.

 

[Escape Artist]

Michael Eisner talked about it in the 80’s 90’s he was not big on camping and didn’t see the need for prime real estate being used for camping. This came as Disney started their mass expansion of the resort. It was said he looked at the fort and how no one staying there can look out there window and see the beautiful lake view. He then said that would make a great place for a resort. We have a lot of property we can move the campground anywhere on this property.

I wouldn't be surprised to see all this happen - someday. But I honestly don't think it will be in the next 10-15 years, maybe more. They still have other properties to develop (Pop/Animation Inn, potential River Country DVC, the luxury level developments, etc.) They've built sooooo many hotel rooms with no additional theme parks that there's only so much occupancy they add before they don't have enough business to support it.

Yes, the Fort has a prime location and amenities that go far beyond what you'd expect for campsites. Just the lakefront location and boat service to the other resorts and the Magic Kingdom seem like it would justify a higher-end resort than a campground at that location. Plus, if they could somehow take the campground off the grid of "Disney Resorts" they could resolve that pesky "people staying offsite but reserving campsites so they can be resort guests" issue, but I still think that would be better resolved thru a policy decision and a slight computer programming change.

But IMO, Disney has bigger fish to fry at this point, and they won't make any changes to the campground location for at least a decade. I don't even think WDW is their biggest focus right now - the whole place seems like it's in maintenance mode while the company expands into China.

I wish there was a great campground somewhere near WDW that charged reasonable rates for a great camping experience. It would be fabulous if it was run by Disney and still on property with bus service and a touch of "magic." That would certainly make my on-site vs. offsite decision a lot tougher!

Sue in Texas