DVC point conversion vs cash inventory ?

[Chuck S]

Chuck,

My guide will be quite dissapointed to learn that you, as a moderator, do not believe his information is reliable or worth seeking...as will anyone reading this post and considering a DVC membership.
Im not quite clear as to whether you are a Disney advocate, or simply use pragmatism to avoid accountability.

Whatever the case, we are DVC members, shareholders and passionate about the Disney experience. This does not however, excuse efforts by Disney to place the bottom line ahead of the guest or member experience. Without the support of guests, DVC members, or the consumer in general, Disney will be no better than any other corporate entity which believes that the P in Profits supplants the first letter in People !

I like my guide just fine thanks, he pretty well covered everything I've been explaining to you, as outlined in the POS.

I am also a stockholder, and a happy DVC owner. It does not mean that we owners should not familiarize ourselves with our documents, as you should for any legally binding agreement. Nor should we be ignorant of the negative possibilities associated with the ownership.

Guides are licensed real estate agents, their function is to sell DVC Points. They are human, there have been reports on these boards of having received inaccurate information from them. I do not think a guide would purposefully mislead a potential client. I do think that they do not know all the "ins & outs" of the POS.

You asked for the verbiage contained in the POS, I quoted it verbatim. A guide can not override or change the written legal documentation. And again, DVC is, at it's core, a timeshare. You have purchased on ownership interest in a building sitting on land controlled by a limited time lease, and also controlled by the laws and rules of the timeshare. There is a difference in the way that timeshares operate from regular cash hotels. Different laws apply.

The POS is full of possibilities and "what ifs" both for the protection of Disney and the protection of DVC owners. Including the possibilities that perks, trade options, special assessments, denial of use in case your unit is destroyed by hurricanes or disasters, even the posibility that if your unit is destroyed and not rebuilt by DVC, that you will receive your small percentage portion of any insurance settlements and disaster funds, and cease being a DVC member.

Some of these possibilities are remote, others are more likely, like point reallocations. But they are things DVC Owners should familiarize themselves with so they are not "shocked" when changes are made,like the change in the 2010 point charts. Many people were caught unaware of the possibility because heir guides said the points don't change. In fact, they have changed more than once in the history of DVC.

Did you also know there is a possibility that DVC could institute a lottery system for getting reservations during peak travel times? In fact there used to be one in the early years, and for that lottery, there was no home resort priority. DVC reserves the right to re-implement that if it sees a need to do so.

DVC is, legally, what it is, a timeshare, not pixie dust and magic. As long as Disney/DVC lives up to their stated obligations to members, I'm happy. And I have no reason to believe that they will not fulfill their legal obligations. On the other hand, I don't feel entitled to more than what our contracts detail. Perks and trade options are nice, I'm happy to have them, especially the $100 AP discount, but I don't by any means think Disney or DVC owes them to us.

If Disney/DVC thought none of the proprosed situations were at least possible, do you think they would have been mentioned in the POS?

 

[Modeltrf]

After reading the many fine posts on this thread I felt compelled to add to the conversation. And then I realized we have so many topics being discussed I don’t know where to jump in. So I will go with the OP title DVC point conversion vs cash inventory.

I bought into DVC to stay at Disney. I have 4 children and I will never stay in another hotel with them on vacation! We love to stay on property but it always worked out better if I stayed in my off property timeshare. Staying in a hotel with my DW, 4 children, and occasional family guest(s) quickly became no vacation at all. So I bought a timeshare…it is a lovely thing. But we also wanted to stay on property. I tried again to stay on property in a hotel…ugh. Again, it was no vacation.

DVC to the rescue! I can stay on property and have enough space to enjoy my vacation. But I am realistic. I know my family situation will not always be what it is today. My kids will become adults who will not want to travel with their parents very often. It will be just me and the DW. I won’t need the 2br villa I currently use. And I like to explore, so the option of staying at all Disney property, including DL, made the purchase of DVC more palatable. Our guide informed us that it wasn’t always a good use of our points but he never stated we may not get in because only so many points are allowed to be in a Disney Collection Resort at any given time. And that would be my concern.

The Adventures by Disney, DCL and the RCI exchange are nice features that I may choose to use in the future. If they are there to use…wonderful. If they are not there…I bought into DVC knowing they may disappear. I can always use other resources for those things. But I did buy into DVC and expect to stay at the Poly, Grand Floridian and the Contemporary if there was availability. There is an expectation that I, as a DVC member, would be treated as well as, but not better than, anyone attempting to make a reservation with cash.

 

[rentayenta]

This has been quite informative.



I bought DVC primarily for Disney but that does not mean I won't use it for other destinations while available. Will I be bummed if they get rid of the other places I plan to visit (Zihua and Spain)? Perhaps, but I don't think Disney will sever those relationships anytime soon. But to be safe, I am calling tomorrow to bank and then book our Zihua trip for Feb 2010.

 

[Chuck S]

This has been quite informative.



I bought DVC primarily for Disney but that does not mean I won't use it for other destinations while available. Will I be bummed if they get rid of the other places I plan to visit (Zihua and Spain)? Perhaps, but I don't think Disney will sever those relationships anytime soon. But to be safe, I am calling tomorrow to bank and then book our Zihua trip for Feb 2010.

Sounds like a lovely vacation...is it through Adventures by Disney or RCI?

 

[rentayenta]

Sounds like a lovely vacation...is it through Adventures by Disney or RCI?

RCI. The funny thing is that we stayed on the same beach only 2 properties away on our last trip in 2007. Zihua is our favorite place in Mexico Not touristy at all but only 6 miles from Ixtapa if you want the nightlife. And not to get too off topic: Disney has not renewed their contract with the Zihua's Club Intrawest resort but the same resort is available through RCI for almost 40 less points.

 

[DebbieB]

After reading the many fine posts on this thread I felt compelled to add to the conversation. And then I realized we have so many topics being discussed I don’t know where to jump in. So I will go with the OP title DVC point conversion vs cash inventory.

I bought into DVC to stay at Disney. I have 4 children and I will never stay in another hotel with them on vacation! We love to stay on property but it always worked out better if I stayed in my off property timeshare. Staying in a hotel with my DW, 4 children, and occasional family guest(s) quickly became no vacation at all. So I bought a timeshare…it is a lovely thing. But we also wanted to stay on property. I tried again to stay on property in a hotel…ugh. Again, it was no vacation.

DVC to the rescue! I can stay on property and have enough space to enjoy my vacation. But I am realistic. I know my family situation will not always be what it is today. My kids will become adults who will not want to travel with their parents very often. It will be just me and the DW. I won’t need the 2br villa I currently use. And I like to explore, so the option of staying at all Disney property, including DL, made the purchase of DVC more palatable. Our guide informed us that it wasn’t always a good use of our points but he never stated we may not get in because only so many points are allowed to be in a Disney Collection Resort at any given time. And that would be my concern.

The Adventures by Disney, DCL and the RCI exchange are nice features that I may choose to use in the future. If they are there to use…wonderful. If they are not there…I bought into DVC knowing they may disappear. I can always use other resources for those things. But I did buy into DVC and expect to stay at the Poly, Grand Floridian and the Contemporary if there was availability. There is an expectation that I, as a DVC member, would be treated as well as, but not better than, anyone attempting to make a reservation with cash.

I don't think it's a case of being "treated as well" as anybody else, it's a business decision. When a member trades out, that leaves DVC with a DVC room to rent for cash to reimburse the resort you are staying at. If there are too many trades, that may leave DVC with too much inventory that they cannot rent and therefore may end up taking a loss. Especially these days when CRO rooms are being heavily discounted, such as buy 4, get 3 free. It's unreasonable to expect DVC to take a loss so that members can have unlimited availability. As Chuck said, it's not all pixie dust and magic, they do have to turn a profit.

 

[Modeltrf]

I don't think it's a case of being "treated as well" as anybody else, it's a business decision. When a member trades out, that leaves DVC with a DVC room to rent for cash to reimburse the resort you are staying at. If there are too many trades, that may leave DVC with too much inventory that they cannot rent and therefore may end up taking a loss. Especially these days when CRO rooms are being heavily discounted, such as buy 4, get 3 free. It's unreasonable to expect DVC to take a loss so that members can have unlimited availability. As Chuck said, it's not all pixie dust and magic, they do have to turn a profit.

I spoke to my guide about not being able to reserve as all other guests. I also spoke to both guides at the Vacation as you Wish presentation in Boston two days ago. I also spoke to the presentation Director at the presentation and they all stated the same thing....There is no limit to the number of DVC reservations at any given time. They were not wishy-washy regarding their statements. They were absolute! There is NO limit.

With all due respect I disagree when you say I don't think it's a case of being treated as well. I was told at the time of the purchase of DVC that I could at any time make a reservation at any Disney hotel as long as there is availability. This was not similar to RCI or other programs that can be so easily cancelled.

 

[Chuck S]

But you could use that argument for any amenity at the resort which some people do not use. I think the internet access becoming "free" over time just means that it has become so ubiquitous in society, that there are more that benefit from it than do not.

We have never used the Magical Express, but somehow that is "free". We rarely use the amenities provided by Community Hall in any of the resorts and that is "free". We rarely use the fitness centers at the resorts, and those are "free" as well. So, where do you draw the line as to the claim that you're "picking the pocket" of those who do not use a "free" amenity for the benefit of those who do?

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few..."

The "picking the pocket" reference was in response to the poster saying that Disney was "picking their pocket" by charging those that use the internet. The point is, no matter what, we are paying for it, it isn't "free." None of the amenities are truly "free" they are included in resort operational costs, in the case of the internet, the cost was simply shifted from the individuals to the membership at large.

I spoke to my guide about not being able to reserve as all other guests. I also spoke to both guides at the Vacation as you Wish presentation in Boston two days ago. I also spoke to the presentation Director at the presentation and they all stated the same thing....There is no limit to the number of DVC reservations at any given time. They were not wishy-washy regarding their statements. They were absolute! There is NO limit.

With all due respect I disagree when you say I don't think it's a case of being treated as well. I was told at the time of the purchase of DVC that I could at any time make a reservation at any Disney hotel as long as there is availability. This was not similar to RCI or other programs that can be so easily cancelled.

Would a guide even know the finer details of the interactive agreements between the Disney operating companies? That in itself seems pretty doubtful.

For a Disney resort to be booked on points, DVC has to give up a room at a DVC resort to recoup the contracted cost, so logically, the high occupancy of DVC resorts would tend to limit the ability to book outside the system.

 

[DebbieB]

I spoke to my guide about not being able to reserve as all other guests. I also spoke to both guides at the Vacation as you Wish presentation in Boston two days ago. I also spoke to the presentation Director at the presentation and they all stated the same thing....There is no limit to the number of DVC reservations at any given time. They were not wishy-washy regarding their statements. They were absolute! There is NO limit.

With all due respect I disagree when you say I don't think it's a case of being treated as well. I was told at the time of the purchase of DVC that I could at any time make a reservation at any Disney hotel as long as there is availability. This was not similar to RCI or other programs that can be so easily cancelled.

I was told by member services that they are limited when I wanted to make a reservation at the Grand Californian at DL last fall. There was cash availability but not points. The original poster has also found this to be the case. Guides have been know to "stretch the truth", which is another topic - only trust what is in your written contract.

 

[BLTtinkerbell]

It is distubing to hear DVC members may not be able to make reservations at The Disney Collection despite availability! As one who just bought into DVC I can assure you the ability to make reservations with your points at all Disney World sites was heavily promoted.

I too am new to DVC and when I asked my Guide about using points to stay at Disney Resorts in The Disney Collection, he told me this could be done based on availablity but would not be a good use of points and not to buy into DVC to stay at Disney Resorts. He told me the best use of points and best way to get a room for the time I want, is to stay at a DVC Resort.

 

[Modeltrf]

Would a guide even know the finer details of the interactive agreements between the Disney operating companies? That in itself seems pretty doubtful.

For a Disney resort to be booked on points, DVC has to give up a room at a DVC resort to recoup the contracted cost, so logically, the high occupancy of DVC resorts would tend to limit the ability to book outside the system.

Yes I would expect the guide to know those details. If he is promoting it he should know it.

I understand what seems logical with DVC needing to give up a room. But that is not what I am being told by those in a leadership position at DVC. I didn't just speak to a guide but I moved it up the food chain and got the same answer. Also I know of only a few who claim they are having difficulites booking through DVC when there is availability through CRO.

 

[Modeltrf]

I too am new to DVC and when I asked my Guide about using points to stay at Disney Resorts in The Disney Collection, he told me this could be done based on availablity but would not be a good use of points and not to buy into DVC to stay at Disney Resorts. He told me the best use of points and best way to get a room for the time I want, is to stay at a DVC Resort.

If you get a chance to look at my earlier post on this thread you will see why I bought into DVC. For a certainty I did not buy into it for the non-DVC Disney hotels. But it was a feature I would like to use in the distant future and I would like to use it during peak times. I particulary enjoy Disney in April around the Easter vacation time.

As I am not using this feature now I will have to wait and see how it works out for me later in life.

 

[Dean]

Yes I would expect the guide to know those details. If he is promoting it he should know it.

I understand what seems logical with DVC needing to give up a room. But that is not what I am being told by those in a leadership position at DVC. I didn't just speak to a guide but I moved it up the food chain and got the same answer. Also I know of only a few who claim they are having difficulites booking through DVC when there is availability through CRO.

I doubt any of the guides know all this information well and I would not expect them to know every nuance. Even if they did, I would not expect them to explain every nuance about a peripheral option even if one asked. One should read the legal paperwork before making a final commitment. One can cancel within 10 days of buying if you find out it doesn't work for you or you don't undersand the entire process.

I know DCL limits the amount of DVC bookings for most cruises, I've heard 10% but don't know for certain.

 

[Modeltrf]

I doubt any of the guides know all this information well and I would not expect them to know every nuance. Even if they did, I would not expect them to explain every nuance about a peripheral option even if one asked. One should read the legal paperwork before making a final commitment. One can cancel within 10 days of buying if you find out it doesn't work for you or you don't undersand the entire process.

I know DCL limits the amount of DVC bookings for most cruises, I've heard 10% but don't know for certain.

I agree that not every guide will know every nuance. But if you ask the question to many and get the same answer as you are getting from those in a leadership role one should be able to expect that answer to be secure. Think of how many times we ask people for info without verifing in writing.

Speaking of writing, I did review my paperwork and I found nothing stating Disney will or will not limit availability in the Disney World Collection. I did find vague wording about all their programs that may constitute freedom to limit availability but no specific wording. Interestingly the wording was so vague that it basically allows them to do as they please.

And that brings me to my next point, I am very, very happy with me decsion to buy DVC! I am not sure why you mentioned I should read the legal document before making a final decision. That would imply that I did not read it. I certainly did read it! It wasn't until I read this post that I began to think something may be different than what was being told to me by DVC. I never received in writing that there were limits placed on availability. But if there are limits that is acceptable and I will continue to be pleased with my DVC decision. But, again, that is not what I am hearing from those at DVC. If fact they were absolute that there are no limits. I even asked some of them if they were unsure of the policy and needed to check with someone else. Each one assured me there was no limit and no need for them to get back to me.

IMHO discussions such as this is what makes DIS boards so useful. As it allows us to share our Disney/ Orlando/ vacation experience with each other.

 

[Dean]

I agree that not every guide will know every nuance. But if you ask the question to many and get the same answer as you are getting from those in a leadership role one should be able to expect that answer to be secure. Think of how many times we ask people for info without verifing in writing.

Speaking of writing, I did review my paperwork and I found nothing stating Disney will or will not limit availability in the Disney World Collection. I did find vague wording about all their programs that may constitute freedom to limit availability but no specific wording. Interestingly the wording was so vague that it basically allows them to do as they please.

And that brings me to my next point, I am very, very happy with me decsion to buy DVC! I am not sure why you mentioned I should read the legal document before making a final decision. That would imply that I did not read it. I certainly did read it! It wasn't until I read this post that I began to think something may be different than what was being told to me by DVC. I never received in writing that there were limits placed on availability. But if there are limits that is acceptable and I will continue to be pleased with my DVC decision. But, again, that is not what I am hearing from those at DVC. If fact they were absolute that there are no limits. I even asked some of them if they were unsure of the policy and needed to check with someone else. Each one assured me there was no limit and no need for them to get back to me.

IMHO discussions such as this is what makes DIS boards so useful. As it allows us to share our Disney/ Orlando/ vacation experience with each other.

It depends on the question I guess. I guess I don't put much stock or confidence in what they say to technical questions in general. I would not expect them to know the intricacies of the CC, DCL, etc and definitely not about limits or restrictions, YMMV. What you'll see in the legal documentation is very little about these issues. That's because they aren't guaranteed and could be changed or elimiated tomorrow if they wanted. Common sense would suggest they will limit the options to their advantage. My statement about reading the legal documentation is a generic statement realizing others will read the thread and because it's very important IMO and it is what boards such as this are about, sharing information, fortunately for you it doesn't apply to you.

 

[Modeltrf]

It depends on the question I guess. I guess I don't put much stock or confidence in what they say to technical questions in general. I would not expect them to know the intricacies of the CC, DCL, etc and definitely not about limits or restrictions, YMMV. What you'll see in the legal documentation is very little about these issues. That's because they aren't guaranteed and could be changed or elimiated tomorrow if they wanted. Common sense would suggest they will limit the options to their advantage. My statement about reading the legal documentation is a generic statement realizing others will read the thread and because it's very important IMO and it is what boards such as this are about, sharing information, fortunately for you it doesn't apply to you.

Dean,
Thanks for clarifying your statement about reading the legal documents. That makes sense for future readers.

So we have established the legal documents don’t have the details regarding the various programs. They pretty much state Disney can discontinue/ alter any program at any time. Which makes me wonder how a DVC member actually finds out what the current protocol is for any given program?

The only answer I can see is through trial and error or, for another DIS plug, these boards. There are many issues with using these boards as a reference. I won’t list them here as there are enough obvious issues to make the point. We could ask member services but, as we have established elsewhere, they are not always reliable. We could ask our guides but they too may not have the correct info.

So again, what can a DVC Member do to find out the details regarding existing programs?

This post is not to discourage someone from buying. I am thrilled with my purchase and recommend it to all others as a viable vacation option.

As always, a pleasure to discuss these topics with you.

 

[Dean]

Dean,
Thanks for clarifying your statement about reading the legal documents. That makes sense for future readers.

So we have established the legal documents don’t have the details regarding the various programs. They pretty much state Disney can discontinue/ alter any program at any time. Which makes me wonder how a DVC member actually finds out what the current protocol is for any given program?

The only answer I can see is through trial and error or, for another DIS plug, these boards. There are many issues with using these boards as a reference. I won’t list them here as there are enough obvious issues to make the point. We could ask member services but, as we have established elsewhere, they are not always reliable. We could ask our guides but they too may not have the correct info.

So again, what can a DVC Member do to find out the details regarding existing programs?

This post is not to discourage someone from buying. I am thrilled with my purchase and recommend it to all others as a viable vacation option.

As always, a pleasure to discuss these topics with you.

DVC actually has quite a bit of material on these programs but DIS and similar places are likely best for the nuances and real world use of such options.

 

[Deb & Bill]

...So again, what can a DVC Member do to find out the details regarding existing programs?....

You might e-mail Member Services and they should assign the question to someone who can take the time to research your question.

 

[Modeltrf]

You might e-mail Member Services and they should assign the question to someone who can take the time to research your question.

Great idea!

 

[vicki_c]

I too am new to DVC and when I asked my Guide about using points to stay at Disney Resorts in The Disney Collection, he told me this could be done based on availablity but would not be a good use of points and not to buy into DVC to stay at Disney Resorts. He told me the best use of points and best way to get a room for the time I want, is to stay at a DVC Resort.

That sounds a lot like my guide - very upfront about the benefits of owning. Of course, he expressed the flexibility of booking outside the system - that's part of their spiel, but he also told us that the best use of our points was at the DVC properties. Just like anything, some guides are going to be better than others and more honest (or less sales-y might be a better term).

And even though I really like my guide a lot and trust him, I still wouldn't take what he said (or his manager or even his manager) as the gospel until I read it in the contract myself. And if it wasn't discussed in the contract, then I would know while something might be true in practice at any particular moment, I wouldn't count on it lasting forever (just a generic comment, not related to the whole cash vs. points availability discussion that started this thread).