DVC point balancing 2022 vs 2021

[New Mouse]

And what else makes me wonder if Disney will do this to pad their wallets, what else will they do or have done in regards to DVC? How honest are they with the dues? How much of the hotel operating cost of the resorts that are both DVC and normal hotels are the DVC members actually paying? Do you really know? Could you really know?

The answer is that they already have done this in the past. The obvious example got caught, but its very east to hide a few cents here and there. Like I have said previously, we will never see that money refunded from magical express.

 

[Eldon32]

I purchased to travel in the fall, that is what works best for my family. We bought enough points to book grand villas. The new point chart in 2021 added 10 points per night to our room. We usually go 6 nights so that's an additional 60 pts.
After reading this forum, I said.... let me look at summer booking. Well, those nights cost much more than the fall time does so it looks like we are forced to stay less time then what we signed up for. That's detrimental to my membership. How can Disney fix that ??

They are allowed to reallocate points within reason. The only options for you are to shift your time, bank/borrow, or buy more points.

The problem we're discussing in this thread represents less than a point per day in cost in some cases.

 

[SL6827]

The answer is that they already have done this in the past. The obvious example got caught, but its very east to hide a few cents here and there. Like I have said previously, we will never see that money refunded from magical express.

I agree. To me, the ability in which to trust DVC, is being deminished greatly now.

 

[Lorana]

I know enough to know when I'm WAY out of my depth, but I've literally just read all 20 pages in this thread and I'm clueless. Can someone explain this to me as if I were a child?

This is how I explained it to my parents (who are also DVC owners):

Each resort point chart has a total number of points - which is, the number required to book every room every day of the year. For years, that total number on the point chart has hovered very closely to the number of total declared points (the number of points that members own).

The POS (the legal documents which govern how DVC is run) states that any increase of points for a day or week needs to be met by a similar decrease elsewhere in the chart. Because the total number of points did not change much from year to year - DVC was following this requirement.

However, in 2022 - many weeks increased and were not offset by similar decreases. Some users here did some excellent analyses and noticed that the overall point totals increased at all resorts by a wider margin than ever before.

This is an issue because there are now more points in the charts than total declared (or the number of points that members own). At my home resort of PVB, these extra points can book 2 studios every day of the year. And this will be year after year after year.

So - if there are more points in the chart than members own, who benefits ? The consensus is not members (with the point inflation, your points don’t go as far). Disney will likely benefit as they can now rent the rooms that will sit empty for cash at the high rack rates they charge and pocket this money.

This is how I understand the issue but I am far from an expert so someone please correct me if any of this information is not accurate.

This is an excellent summary, thank you!

One thing I'd add - though maybe this is getting too deep into the details - is that when you purchase DVC, you are not actually purchasing a total # of points. You are purchasing a % ownership in a unit, and that % ownership is represented by points. That is the reason why the POS and Legal Documents all require the total points for the year in charts to book the resort in a given year to match the declared points. If the total points increase in one part, there must be a corresponding decrease elsewhere. The only exceptions are normal calendar variations (like leap year, more or less weekends in a year, etc.).

 

[DVCSunDevil]

The answer is that they already have done this in the past. The obvious example got caught, but its very east to hide a few cents here and there. Like I have said previously, we will never see that money refunded from magical express.

No, you won't see any money "refunded" from DME getting cancelled. That's because it is running through the end of this year, so DVC shouldn't be refunding anything. Now, if it was getting cancelled mid year then they would need to refund (or credit MFs next year) because the cost of DME in 2021 was paid for in our MFs that we already paid. Starting in 2022, we simply won't be paying for DME in our MFs.

I totally understand that people are upset about DME getting cancelled, but the comments that DVC will continue charging us for those fees in 2022 just isn't accurate. They have to answer for every line item on our fees. It's not a conspiracy.

 

[dismedvc]

How honest are they with the dues?

As I said previously, the .5% point inflation is about 1 point per year for a member who owns 200 points. However, members could replace that lost point by purchasing a single one time use point for $20. For a member with 200 points, $20 is equivalent to a 10 cent per point increase in maintenance fees. Given the uproar the point inflation has caused (at least in this thread) if DVC wanted to "pull something shady" to raise that amount it seems to me they could have easily found an allowable accounting allocation that would have allowed them to increase maintenance fees by 10 cents per point, which would have the same dollar result and avoided the uproar. Maybe they did both?

 

[MickyLynn]

So again, to whom do we address complaints and how do we frame it (presuming Disney has established its reasons and believes it is correct in its own analysis)? The state? The county?

 

[Leight19]

No, you won't see any money "refunded" from DME getting cancelled. That's because it is running through the end of this year, so DVC shouldn't be refunding anything. Now, if it was getting cancelled mid year then they would need to refund (or credit MFs next year) because the cost of DME in 2021 was paid for in our MFs that we already paid. Starting in 2022, we simply won't be paying for DME in our MFs.

I totally understand that people are upset about DME getting cancelled, but the comments that DVC will continue charging us for those fees in 2022 just isn't accurate. They have to answer for every line item on our fees. It's not a conspiracy.

Do you know what audits/reviews take place for the maintenance fee line items? It would comfort me if there was way we could review (not just x dollars for transport but breakdown of what each service costs) or if someone independent completed review but if it’s just them self reviewing I don’t get much from (especially given the issues they company had in past with aulani dues).

 

[DVCSunDevil]

Do you know what audits/reviews take place for the maintenance fee line items? It would comfort me if there was way we could review (not just x dollars for transport but breakdown of what each service costs) or if someone independent completed review but if it’s just them self reviewing I don’t get much from (especially given the issues they company had in past with aulani dues).

Funny you ask that, because I have been asking myself the same thing. An acquaintance I know said he asked DVC a few years ago that same question and was told that a third party does in fact conduct an annual audit. I think that is a very fair question to ask DVC. Are they doing their own audit every or are they indeed using a third party to double check the fees vs actual costs? I don't see DVC "cooking the books" because if they were every audited by the IRS or were sued and had to show their records in court they would be...ummmmm...in big trouble. If they charged members for DME in 2022 that would be fraud. DVC isn't doing that.

 

[gisele2]

Basically, some of us members believe with what information we have been provided by management, that DVCM have decided to use phantom points (point amounts increased and as a result, less members will be able to book and use their points which would result in astronomical breakage income for Disney on the backs of the members) to increase the amount needed to use in the 7 seasons they made for UY 2022.

As such, some of us have questioned the legality of the changes made when it seems to go against the rules established when the membership was created.

It appears that the point chart changes(2022) shift to benefit Disney instead of benefiting us, the members.

Basically, but don’t quote me cause it’s more to this than what I wrote.

excellent summary.

 

[Eldon32]

Funny you ask that, because I have been asking myself the same thing. An acquaintance I know said he asked DVC a few years ago that same question and was told that a third party does in fact conduct an annual audit. I think that is a very fair question to ask DVC. Are they doing their own audit every or are they indeed using a third party to double check the fees vs actual costs? I don't see DVC "cooking the books" because if they were every audited by the IRS or were sued and had to show their records in court they would be...ummmmm...in big trouble. If they charged members for DME in 2022 that would be fraud. DVC isn't doing that.

There is a line item in every resort's budget for the following:

Annual Audit - Fee for the independent audit of the Association’s financial statements as required by Florida law.

Florida law says:

(e) Arranging for an annual audit of the financial statements of the timeshare plan by a certified public accountant licensed by the Board of Accountancy of the Department of Business and Professional Regulation, in accordance with generally accepted auditing standards as defined by the rules of the Board of Accountancy of the Department of Business and Professional Regulation. The financial statements required by this section must be prepared on an accrual basis using fund accounting, and must be presented in accordance with generally accepted accounting principles. A copy of the audited financial statements must be filed with the division for review and forwarded to the board of directors and officers of the owners’ association, if one exists, no later than 5 calendar months after the end of the timeshare plan’s fiscal year. If no owners’ association exists, each purchaser must be notified, no later than 5 months after the end of the timeshare plan’s fiscal year, that a copy of the audited financial statements is available upon request to the managing entity. Notwithstanding any requirement of s. 718.111(13) or s. 719.104(4), the audited financial statements required by this section are the only annual financial reporting requirements for timeshare condominiums or timeshare cooperatives.

 

[DVCSunDevil]

There is a line item in every resort's budget for the following:



Florida law says:

There you go. It sounds like the person I spoke to was correct. He said the independent auditor checks every line item versus what was in the budget to verify that everything is legit. And he said "line item" means more than just "Transportation". For example, "Transportation" is the general line item that we see as members but there are several sub line items under that (Magical Express, for example) which dive into the specifics on what exactly is in the general line item. DVC has to have documentation as to what is included in each fee. Everything that our MFs are being spent on is seen by the auditors, and that all has to correlate with what is being communicate to the members. So knowing all that, DVC is not going to keep the fees for the DME in their 2022 MFs.

 

[DougEMG]

I bought DVC because I trusted Disney to run their "timeshare" better than other companies. Things like this and last year's lock off premium all slowly erode that trust.

The changes with the current point charts do seem to make it harder to see exactly what is happening. What might be interesting is to compare the total points owned/sold at each resort against the current point charts over the remaining live of each resort and see exactly how many extra points that nets Disney. In my simple mind, those numbers should be extremely close if Disney was acting in the best interests of its members.

 

[i<3riviera]

͏

 

[SL6827]

I bought DVC because I trusted Disney to run their "timeshare" better than other companies. Things like this and last year's lock off premium all slowly erode that trust.

The changes with the current point charts do seem to make it harder to see exactly what is happening. What might be interesting is to compare the total points owned/sold at each resort against the current point charts over the remaining live of each resort and see exactly how many extra points that nets Disney. In my simple mind, those numbers should be extremely close if Disney was acting in the best interests of its members.

This. When the trust is gone, the brand will follow. Disney is acting in Disney's best interest. Plain and simple.

 

[New Mouse]

At $20 for a point thats $220 million across all DVC members over the life of the contracts.

 

[dismedvc]

@New Mouse You stated "At $20 for a point thats $220 million across all DVC members over the life of the contracts."
However, as detailed by @i<3riviera in post #414 above, the actual value appears to be closer to $72 million.
That is still a huge number and worth fighting for, but the impact on any one member is not enough for them to fight the battle alone.

Also, (hopefully not putting words in her/his mouth) I agree with what I felt was implied by @i<3riviera in post #414 that we should all wait and see what DVC decides to "voluntarily" do before bringing out the figurative pitchforks. It appears to me that by pushing back all previously scheduled callbacks until February 8th, to discuss this issue with members who requested callbacks, that DVC might be reconsidering and will have something, hopefully satisfying, to announce on, or before, that date.

 

[sethschroeder]

Also, (hopefully not putting words in her/his mouth) I agree with what I felt was implied by @i<3riviera in post #414 that we should all wait and see what DVC decides to "voluntarily" do before bringing out the figurative pitchforks. It appears to me that by pushing back all previously scheduled callbacks until February 8th, to discuss this issue with members who requested callbacks, that DVC might be reconsidering and will have something, hopefully satisfying, to announce on, or before, that date.

This was also my reaction when I originally had my call some weeks ago and had outlined my questions to DVC regarding the point allotments being shifted around. I had planned on giving it another year to see what further happened to all up point charts.

I am happy though others have followed up with much greater detailed information and especially what is being put together here.

I am waiting on some additional individuals to report back what resulted from their calls to see what possibly I would want to do next.

 

[New Mouse]

@New Mouse You stated "At $20 for a point thats $220 million across all DVC members over the life of the contracts."
However, as detailed by @i<3riviera in post #414 above, the actual value appears to be closer to $72 million.
That is still a huge number and worth fighting for, but the impact on any one member is not enough for them to fight the battle alone.

Also, (hopefully not putting words in her/his mouth) I agree with what I felt was implied by @i<3riviera in post #414 that we should all wait and see what DVC decides to "voluntarily" do before bringing out the figurative pitchforks. It appears to me that by pushing back all previously scheduled callbacks until February 8th, to discuss this issue with members who requested callbacks, that DVC might be reconsidering and will have something, hopefully satisfying, to announce on, or before, that date.

You also need to factor in dues inflation and membership growth over that time (and we all know it will extend beyond 50 years). Its a long term money grab that quite frankly the executives should (again) lose their jobs for.

 

[SL6827]

If Disney backs down from this attempt, I bet they will realize that they will just have to get more creative in the future to accomplish their end goal.