DVC plans to target commercial renters

[GoingSince1990]

Do you want to be blocked from renting your 2k points because you got a few colds and couldn’t go for a decade or two? These kinds of restrictions are going to bring in unintended consequences for me when I rent to my extended family just because we all have different names and nationalities and live in separate parts of the world. It isn’t my fault my family prefers AKL values and Club level rooms, they know what they like. Zebra domes or bust.

Do you list rentals for your extended family on publicly accessible internet sites? I’m suggesting that at least in the first instance, DVC targets those owners listing pages of spec rentals on the internet, which would not affect those who are privately making reservations for friends and family, no matter what their last names or nationalities are.

 

[Chuck S]

I will bet a pile of Mickey Bars that the motivation is people on the sales floor who are considering a purchase but say one of (a) they believe/have heard that rentals are making it harder to book and they are afraid to buy or (b) they can get rentals cheaply enough so they don't need to buy.

Perhaps, but if they are savvy enough to have heard that Renting could make getting reservations more difficult, they would logically also be savvy enough to know about the resale market, and can but less expensively...So likely a combination of both.

 

[Chuck S]

Do you list rentals for your extended family on publicly accessible internet sites? I’m suggesting that at least in the first instance, DVC targets those owners listing pages of spec rentals on the internet, which would not affect those who are privately making reservations for friends and family, no matter what their last names or nationalities are.

So now it goes to the question...if someone is listing rentals on a website, even the DIS, they usually use a screen name, not their true deeded name. So how, exactly would Disney know who an idividual owner is that is listing the reservations. HThey would need to take tinme to cross reserence the existing reservations, then perhaps they could pinpoint the owner. That will take employee time, and thus a monetary commitment from DVC Management, especially since the manage fee is a set percentage of overall dues.

 

[MICKIMINI]

Did I mis-quote you?

I'll let you go back and reread...

 

[DonMacGregor]

Do you want to be blocked from renting your 2k points because you got a few colds and couldn’t go for a decade or two? These kinds of restrictions are going to bring in unintended consequences for me when I rent to my extended family just because we all have different names and nationalities and live in separate parts of the world. It isn’t my fault my family prefers AKL values and Club level rooms, they know what they like. Zebra domes or bust.

The Snark is strong in this one. Well done my young Padwan, your training is progressing...

 

[tx911]

I disagree. Especially on what would be considered reasonable. Renting half your points to pay dues? Unreasonable. Sending your brother and his family, reasonable.

You are a commercial renter. Using your over bought points to pay your dues.

I agree to some degree. If you're doing this year after year after year, just sell some points.
Doing it once in a while, I have no issue with.

 

[Cyberc1978]

So now it goes to the question...if someone is listing rentals on a website, even the DIS, they usually use a screen name, not their true deeded name. So how, exactly would Disney know who an idividual owner is that is listing the reservations. HThey would need to take tinme to cross reserence the existing reservations, then perhaps they could pinpoint the owner. That will take employee time, and thus a monetary commitment from DVC Management, especially since the manage fee is a set percentage of overall dues.

But if someone list it on Facebook they use their real name and then they would be easy to find.

 

[sndral]

…
Rentals themselves are an entry drug to DVC sales and addonitis -- Disney knows this.

Only reason Disney is looking at this now is probably of renting data showing impacting occupancy rates at their moderate accommodation products.

They just need to be cautious not to knock down the house of cards that they built.

The rentals as a ‘drug’ for eventual direct purchase seems a bit of a stretch to me. DVC has a healthy presence throughout WDW, you don’t need to be staying at a DVC villa to learn about it.
While DVC rentals decreasing cash booking demand may be one metric Disney looks at, I doubt it is the only thing they’re concerned about. In past earnings reports/calls Disney has mentioned if bookings are down, there was no mention of that in their Q4/year end report.

This. Then again, as mentioned upthread; Disney is compartmentalized into divisions. So how much noise coming out of the C-suite to change things at DVC division matters.

So I suspect Csuite is hearing DVC rentals impacting hotel division operations at moderate level -- then gives DVC marching orders to look into this and stop the impacts.
…

No need to guess what’s on the C-suite’s mind when they specifically stated in their 4th quarter/year end earnings report that “[o]perating income at our domestic parks and experiences reflected” 3 things & the only negative of those 3 was “Lower sales of Disney Vacation Club units.”
DVC direct sales are a cash cow for Disney & I’d bet DVC’s upper management is focused on improving those numbers, which likely includes improving availability for the majority of members by targeting those using their memberships commercially.

 

[tom1944]

So now it goes to the question...if someone is listing rentals on a website, even the DIS, they usually use a screen name, not their true deeded name. So how, exactly would Disney know who an idividual owner is that is listing the reservations. HThey would need to take tinme to cross reserence the existing reservations, then perhaps they could pinpoint the owner. That will take employee time, and thus a monetary commitment from DVC Management, especially since the manage fee is a set percentage of overall dues.

They could call and try to rent the points themselves

 

[xdan0920]

I'll let you go back and reread...

Do you realize I quoted multiple people?

 

[Sandisw]

I agree to some degree. If you're doing this year after year after year, just sell some points.
Doing it once in a while, I have no issue with.

Which is why no matter how any of us view this, DVC is going to put in place terms that they believe match the purpose of the commercial enterprise clause of the contract.

Now that it is so much easier to rent than 30 years ago, I am convinced that what we see in the market is a lot of owners who are doing the occasional rentals and that is playing a big role in why we have an exploding market.

It’s even a common theme here. Rent your points to go on cruise…rent them to then rent at a restricted resort…etc.

I guess we will see how things role out but if I have to bet, I don’t think DVC is going to put out new rules but will go after those behind the scenes they have identified as a problem.

 

[Sandisw]

They could call and try to rent the points themselves

They don’t need to though…set a threshold on the computer that flags memberships that have a lot of points and review them.

Advertising alone isn’t a violation…they need to be converted into another persons name. And that is easy for DVC to track.

If the statement about large point owners means anything, that is easy place to start.

Plus, once identified, it turns to enforcement and what they legally can do if one is found to be using it as a commercial business. No clue what that could even be beyond canceling reservations.

 

[Disney Spaz]

When they went after the AP holders that were doing the personal tours and using DAS to help families skip the line Disney knew who to go after as they had already been tracking them. I believe they received a cease and desist letter, then if they did not stop their park tickets were flagged and they were denied entry and issued a no trespassing order for WDW property. If memory serves me correctly one was a DVC owner. I believe he is allowed to go to his property and use his points but he is not supposed to go on other Disney property. I have seen his wife posting during his banning and the only place he is seen in images now is at the DVC resort he was at, which may have been their home resort.

I know this is different in a lot of ways but I do think if Disney thinks they are loosing money because of this they will invest the resources to stop those they believe are at fault.

Also there was a change to recent timeshare law in Flordia regarding badly behaving guests and the timeshare company having the right to deny them access to their purchased timeshare property. I do not remember all the details of the law but it gave time share companies a lot more options for what is deemed a badly behaving guests/owner. It would be interesting to see what the laws definition of badly behaving is and if Disney could make a case for commercial renters behaving badley.

Either way Disney will go after who they view as impacting their bottom line. Whether it is DVC sales due to renting or moderate/deluxe resort bookings due to renting only DIsney really knows but either way I do believe they are more focused on that then any negative consequences for current owners. Plus as we can see from all these debates owners are spread all over the place regarding what they view as commercial renting, spec renting and what is and is not okay. As a result no matter what Disney does there will be negative feedback and positive feedback. So more reason for Disney to do what they view as best interest for their bottom line, be it continue to ignore renting or become more aggressive.

 

[nalababybear]

When they went after the AP holders that were doing the personal tours and using DAS to help families skip the line Disney knew who to go after as they had already been tracking them. I believe they received a cease and desist letter, then if they did not stop their park tickets were flagged and they were denied entry and issued a no trespassing order for WDW property. If memory serves me correctly one was a DVC owner. I believe he is allowed to go to his property and use his points but he is not supposed to go on other Disney property. I have seen his wife posting during his banning and the only place he is seen in images now is at the DVC resort he was at, which may have been their home resort.

I know this is different in a lot of ways but I do think if Disney thinks they are loosing money because of this they will invest the resources to stop those they believe are at fault.

Also there was a change to recent timeshare law in Flordia regarding badly behaving guests and the timeshare company having the right to deny them access to their purchased timeshare property. I do not remember all the details of the law but it gave time share companies a lot more options for what is deemed a badly behaving guests/owner. It would be interesting to see what the laws definition of badly behaving is and if Disney could make a case for commercial renters behaving badley.

Either way Disney will go after who they view as impacting their bottom line. Whether it is DVC sales due to renting or moderate/deluxe resort bookings due to renting only DIsney really knows but either way I do believe they are more focused on that then any negative consequences for current owners. Plus as we can see from all these debates owners are spread all over the place regarding what they view as commercial renting, spec renting and what is and is not okay. As a result no matter what Disney does there will be negative feedback and positive feedback. So more reason for Disney to do what they view as best interest for their bottom line, be it continue to ignore renting or become more aggressive.

Well put.

Only.Disney knows how much impact is going on and what levers they want to pull to mitigate the impact. CAG was an issue, then the touring, then DAS became oversized and Disney wanted to sell more LLMP and LLPP.

Same for DVC. Time will.tell what levers they will do and we all will adjust to them. Not a big deal.

I do think those believing availability of highly sought after rooms making out of the first 10 minutes of 800am are kidding themselves.

 

[DougEMG]

I really don't care what any other owner is doing as long as the rules are being followed, and we know what the rules are. As far as I can see there are only really 2 categories of rules: (1) the law as set by governments and (2) the rules that Disney puts in place.

As far as I can tell there are only 2 rules on renting:

Rule 1 is that we are allowed to rent, I believe that is a law. How much we are legally able to rent out I have no idea!

Rule 2 is that Disney has defined 20 reservations per membership per rolling 12 months (not in the members name) a limit around renting. They have no other rules that they have announced or follow around renting.

All the other rules have to do around how we can book rooms and what happens when we cancel a booking. None of these have to do with renting. It is easy to book a room, try and rent it for a huge amount and if no one bites, then move the reservation along to a different set of days. The booking system makes it easy for a motivated renter to go after high rental rates, just like it makes owners very motivated to walk reservations to get the room that they want.

Do I think all those spec AKV value rents are annoying, sure. Does it affect me, nope because I don't own at AKV so would never get those rooms to begin with and I certainly would not want to pay higher MF so that DVC could put a stop to that.

Personally, I don't think that Disney can do much. Where I think they are doing something is in the new trust model they have set up for the CFW. There the rules around renting are completely different. You aren't an owner of property; you are just a club member whose privileges can be removed very easily. I'm betting you will never seem large point renters buying in under that model. So, if you don't want renters interfering with your ability to get what you want, go buy resorts under the new trust model.

 

[HyperspaceMountainPilot]

An interesting stat would be comparing how much a DVC renter spends in WDW compared to a DVC member. If renters spend more in WDW , Disney will not curb commercial renting.

I think this is misguided. It assumes a DVC renter wouldn’t book a room at one of the moderate or deluxe resorts and I think that assumption is mistaken for many renters. If they could no longer get a 10-15 point BWV/AKV room at $350 a night, they would likely be staying at a moderate (or deluxe with a discount offer)…exactly the rooms Disney has had trouble filling.

I agree to some degree. If you're doing this year after year after year, just sell some points.
Doing it once in a while, I have no issue with.

I think/hope that all owners, even us militantly against commercial renters, agree on this. Being able to rent up to 1/3 your points over a 3 year period seems imminently reasonable and everyone can imagine legitimate reasons why they might need to rent all their points for certain years, but if every year you rent half of your points or more, you are expecting your points to earn income, which is definitionally commercial renting.

If they are allowed to by law, I would encourage Disney to ban speculative renting across the board and also ban renting across value and standard studios— one benefit of being an owner (and not a renter) should be access to the cheapest rooms. Will it solve all problems? Of course not. But it will mean more small contract owners can stretch their points at their home resorts and prevent commercial renters from extracting max profits.

 

[Cfabar1]

Disney deluxe resorts consistently sell out. It even sells out of cash DVC side. That's not the issue -- it's the moderate hotels.

Not sure I agree with this, and if I do it is only because the number of deluxe (non DVC) rooms has been radically shrinking for about 20 years, and no pure deluxe cash inventory has been added in decades... Lakeshore Lodge may prove to be the exception, in which case it will be the first in a VERY long time....

 

[Nabas]

Florida Statute 721.13(12)(a) reads:

In addition to any other rights granted by the rules and regulations of the timeshare plan, the managing entity of a timeshare plan is authorized to manage the reservation and use of accommodations using those processes, analyses, procedures, and methods that are in the best interests of the owners as a whole to efficiently manage the timeshare plan and encourage the maximum use and enjoyment of the accommodations and other benefits made available through the timeshare plan. [emphasis added] The managing entity shall have the right to forecast anticipated reservation and use of the accommodations, including the right to take into account current and previous reservation and use of the accommodations, information about events that are scheduled to occur, seasonal use patterns, and other pertinent factors that affect the reservation or use of the accommodations. In furtherance of the provisions of this subsection, the managing entity is authorized to reserve accommodations, in the best interests of the owners as a whole, for the purposes of depositing such reserved use with an affiliated exchange program or renting such reserved accommodations in order to facilitate the use or future use of the accommodations or other benefits made available through the timeshare plan.​

Disney has a fair amount of discretion managing how DVC members use their points.

 

[Sandisw]

Florida Statute 721.13(12)(a) reads:

In addition to any other rights granted by the rules and regulations of the timeshare plan, the managing entity of a timeshare plan is authorized to manage the reservation and use of accommodations using those processes, analyses, procedures, and methods that are in the best interests of the owners as a whole to efficiently manage the timeshare plan and encourage the maximum use and enjoyment of the accommodations and other benefits made available through the timeshare plan. The managing entity shall have the right to forecast anticipated reservation and use of the accommodations, including the right to take into account current and previous reservation and use of the accommodations, information about events that are scheduled to occur, seasonal use patterns, and other pertinent factors that affect the reservation or use of the accommodations. In furtherance of the provisions of this subsection, the managing entity is authorized to reserve accommodations, in the best interests of the owners as a whole, for the purposes of depositing such reserved use with an affiliated exchange program or renting such reserved accommodations in order to facilitate the use or future use of the accommodations or other benefits made available through the timeshare plan.​

Disney has a fair amount of discretion managing how DVC members use their points.

This is what supports their ability to create the home resort rules and regulations in a manner that supports the POS…and amend those as well.

You will find some of this exact language in the POS…and the memgerhsip agreement includes what info needs to be included in those.

 

[TCRAIG]

I disagree. Especially on what would be considered reasonable. Renting half your points to pay dues? Unreasonable. Sending your brother and his family, reasonable.

Agree 100%

Bingo. If you are listing on a commercial website you are violating the rules. IMO.

You are a commercial renter. Using your over bought points to pay your dues.

And I 100% disagree - I don’t see this as commercial renting at all…
But again - it doesn’t matter what I think - it only matters what DVC thinks.