Does David's tell you if the renter cancels?

[ziravan]

I'm not seeing how David's can afford to issue these credits... It seems he's banking on the vast majority of points being useable at the end of this... And if they aren't??

At this point, he’s just trying to “flatten the curve” of when money is payable/refundable under his contracts and he’s hoping it’ll be enough to keep his business afloat for now.

He only has to worry about future credits IF things work out.

This is why I would not rebook without being made whole now. There’s a greater than non-zero chance that if the middle-man goes under, then owners rebooking now will have to decide later to either honor that rebooking without getting paid the 30%, or screwing the renter. In that case, I’d probably feel obligated to honor the reservation. So any owners rebooking now without getting paid now is taking a chance that they’ll never get paid the balance.

 

[Sandisw]

I'm seriously worried a "credit" is akin to worthless gift card to toys r us...

Honestly, I would be too, This credit requires the broker to have owners willing to make points available. If there are issues with current owners getting full payment, that pool may dry up.

I would also want to be sure that the credit Is for the same number of points, and not dollar amount so that renter isn’t required to pay more since rates go up.

It will certainly be the right fit for some renters whose original owners can make it right.

 

[MICKIMINI]

I just received this email:

	Dear Members, I know the last couple of weeks have been a challenge for all of us. As we navigate the rapidly changing COVID-19 environment, we continue to make decisions focused on the health and wellbeing of our Members, Guests and Cast Members. Today I want to share another update with you. As a result of this unprecedented pandemic and in line with direction provided by health experts and government officials, Disneyland Resort and Walt Disney World Resort will remain closed until further notice. This closure affects all Disney Vacation Club properties, including Disney’s Vero Beach Resort, Disney’s Hilton Head Island Resort and Aulani, a Disney Resort & Spa. During this temporary closure, it is our priority to continue providing you with helpful and efficient service, even as the majority of our Cast Members are working remotely, including those in Member Services and Member Accounting. Until the decision is made as to when the resorts will reopen, all reservations scheduled for arrival during the closure time will be automatically cancelled by Disney Vacation Club on a week-by-week basis. Members do not need to cancel the reservation online or contact Member Services. In light of the unusual circumstances and to provide more flexibility, Disney Vacation Club established a temporary cancellation policy to supplement our existing cancellation rules. Details include: Vacation Points returned due to a cancellation of a resort reservation will not be placed in a holding account and will be returned to the current Use Year. This applies to all reservations checking in within the next 30 days. When a reservation involving Borrowed Points is cancelled, the Borrowed Points will be returned to the Use Year they were borrowed from. This applies to all reservations regardless of arrival date. Please allow up to 15 business days for this process to be completed. The following existing cancellation rules continue to apply: Reservation Points returned due to a cancellation of a Disney Collection Resort reservation will be returned as Reservation Points to the current Use Year. Reservations made with points Banked from the previous Use Year will be returned as Banked Points to the current Use Year. One-time use Points will be returned to the current Use Year as one-time use Points. In addition, some Members may have questions about reservation cancellations involving Points that are set to expire soon. At this time, we are evaluating the banking and expiration policy and the use of certain Points impacted by the closures. As a part of our evaluation process, we need to be considerate of the impact any changes could have on future inventory availability for the Membership overall. A decision will be made when we better understand how long COVID-19 will impact our operations. As we anticipate high call volume in the days ahead, we encourage you to use the Disney Vacation Club website for general information – and we ask that you contact Member Services only if you need assistance with an existing reservation. Any Member who would like to book a new Disney Vacation Club Resort reservation or modify an existing reservation may do so through the Member Online Booking Tool. We realize that disruptions related to COVID-19 are altering your family’s vacation plans, and we thank you for your understanding during this unprecedented time. It is our commitment to stay focused on serving you with ongoing communication and updates. We look forward to “welcoming you home” as soon as we can.
	Stay well,
	Terri Schultz Senior Vice President Disney Vacation Club, Guided Adventures & Expeditions and Golden Oak

 

[lawboy2001]

I was curious, though, because if A resort is closed, then there is no check in day, if people are reading the contracts that non refundable means just that, then isn’t it possible that language can also be taken literally in this current situation,

Could the broker claim, that he is not in breach of contract, because with the resort closed, that aspect of the contract is not being fulfilled?

[/QUOTE]

Frustration. You are talking about frustration of contract. When circumstances make it impossible for the parties to fulfill the contract, the contract is frustrated. I.e. if you contracted to buy a painting but the painting is subsequently destroyed in a fire. I.e. guest cannot check in, and owner cannot provide accommodation.

I believe what should happen in the case of frustration is that the contracting parties be returned to their original position: so money paid to the owner returned to the renter; intermediary's commission returned to the renter as well.

 

[ziravan]

With every passing day, an owner willing to reschedule a renter’s vacation later in 2020 drops to zero as a possible solution.

All those days are disappearing. DVC has plenty of rooms avail in April due to cancellations, and some scattered avail in May. Everything else seems to be either gone or disappearing fast.

It’s not just owners rescheduling renters but also rescheduling themselves. In my case I did both: reschedule a renter and my own trip for later in the year.

In fact, DVC is very concerned about just this possibility due to all the cancellations: more points chasing rooms than availability.

 

[lauraleh]

The points borrowed from Aug 2020 UY for David’s rental that didn’t happen have now gone back to that year. I let David’s know and got a thank you reply saying they would try to re rent the points to make the original renter whole.
Is it just me, or does anyone else feel that under the circumstances, offering to rebook for the original renters at a time that suits them would be sufficient recompense rather than getting the money back to them by finding new renters? I know it’s not a perfect fix, but surely most renters will want to still do Disney once this virus is put to rest? We are now at the point when within a couple of weeks, I could probably book the same BWV accommodation for the same dates next year. I do feel sorry for David’s company as they are in an impossible situation. There has been lots of chatter on here of whether the contracts were legal or not, but at the end of the day, renters entered into what they must have thought of as a no refund contract. Yes, this is an odd situation no one could have anticipated, but offering to defer the vacation is surely a good outcome?
I know DVC may stop putting borrowed points back, and there will also have been banked points that cannot be reused, but this is surely a good outcome for many renters? what do others think? If David’s have to rely on finding new renters for the points available they may never get out of this mess.

I'm a renter and I do still plan on going to WDW. BUT I'm dealing with an expiring AP pass and I booked my April trip for the last week of my passes. Those will be extended but we have no idea for how long. I'll have to travel sometime this late spring-summer (depending on when the parks reopen of course) to use my passes. The chances of David's being able to find me a rental for those dates that work with the prices I want to spend are slim to none.

 

[lawboy2001]

One could argue that the closure of the resort by the Member's agent (DVCMC) is an action by the Member. DVCMC is the owner's agent and by law, an owner is responsible for her/his agent's actions.

I am not a lawyer and would be interested to see what the lawyers among us say. There is a lot of information about agent law all over the internet.

Interesting argument! It would be worth a go if you had nothing else to argue, but I don't think that term was addressed to resort closure and I don't think that would be a successful argument in the end.

I think the analysis that fits here is frustration. The contract cannot be performed, even though both parties want to perform the contract, because of actions outside the parties' control. The parties should be put back in to their original positions vis a vis each other: all money should be returned to the renter INCLUDING DAVID'S COMMISH!!

 

[KingRichard]

I'm not seeing how David's can afford to issue these credits... It seems he's banking on the vast majority of points being useable at the end of this... And if they aren't??

I know that some of the staff and more then likely all of staff have DVC memberships. Wouldn't you if you worked there and could rent them out?

I'm sure David must have bought lots of contracts when the prices were really low 8-10 years ago.

Each month I'm sure they will have new points to use and borrow to get through this mess.

 

[Sandisw]

I was curious, though, because if A resort is closed, then there is no check in day, if people are reading the contracts that non refundable means just that, then isn’t it possible that language can also be taken literally in this current situation,

Could the broker claim, that he is not in breach of contract, because with the resort closed, that aspect of the contract is not being fulfilled?

This is why, not having language to specifically deal with this is the problem. I thought the same thing but have since learned from people here more knowledge than myself it’s not that simple

Without it, there are technical aspects that can be claimed by one part over the other that can’t be sorted out unless both can come to a common understanding.

If the broker decides to take that literally and holds back, unless the owner agrees to interpret it the same way, it’s a conflict that would seem can only be figured out via the courts or lawyers,

 

[momincolorado]

I'm a renter and I do still plan on going to WDW. BUT I'm dealing with an expiring AP pass and I booked my April trip for the last week of my passes. Those will be extended but we have no idea for how long. I'll have to travel sometime this late spring-summer (depending on when the parks reopen of course) to use my passes. The chances of David's being able to find me a rental for those dates that work with the prices I want to spend are slim to none.

I have the same problem, APs expiring mid August. For this reason alone, David's "travel credit" is essentially useless to me.

 

[Deb & Bill]

I know that some of the staff and more then likely all of staff have DVC memberships. Wouldn't you if you worked there and could rent them out?

I'm sure David must have bought lots of contracts when the prices were really low 8-10 years ago.

Each month I'm sure they will have new points to use and borrow to get through this mess.

But if he makes more than 20 reservations in a use year, he could be found to be commercial renting by DVC which is against their rules.

 

[GoingSince1990]

I just received this email:

	Dear Members, I know the last couple of weeks have been a challenge for all of us. As we navigate the rapidly changing COVID-19 environment, we continue to make decisions focused on the health and wellbeing of our Members, Guests and Cast Members. Today I want to share another update with you. As a result of this unprecedented pandemic and in line with direction provided by health experts and government officials, Disneyland Resort and Walt Disney World Resort will remain closed until further notice. This closure affects all Disney Vacation Club properties, including Disney’s Vero Beach Resort, Disney’s Hilton Head Island Resort and Aulani, a Disney Resort & Spa. During this temporary closure, it is our priority to continue providing you with helpful and efficient service, even as the majority of our Cast Members are working remotely, including those in Member Services and Member Accounting. Until the decision is made as to when the resorts will reopen, all reservations scheduled for arrival during the closure time will be automatically cancelled by Disney Vacation Club on a week-by-week basis. Members do not need to cancel the reservation online or contact Member Services. In light of the unusual circumstances and to provide more flexibility, Disney Vacation Club established a temporary cancellation policy to supplement our existing cancellation rules. Details include: Vacation Points returned due to a cancellation of a resort reservation will not be placed in a holding account and will be returned to the current Use Year. This applies to all reservations checking in within the next 30 days. When a reservation involving Borrowed Points is cancelled, the Borrowed Points will be returned to the Use Year they were borrowed from. This applies to all reservations regardless of arrival date. Please allow up to 15 business days for this process to be completed. The following existing cancellation rules continue to apply: Reservation Points returned due to a cancellation of a Disney Collection Resort reservation will be returned as Reservation Points to the current Use Year. Reservations made with points Banked from the previous Use Year will be returned as Banked Points to the current Use Year. One-time use Points will be returned to the current Use Year as one-time use Points. In addition, some Members may have questions about reservation cancellations involving Points that are set to expire soon. At this time, we are evaluating the banking and expiration policy and the use of certain Points impacted by the closures. As a part of our evaluation process, we need to be considerate of the impact any changes could have on future inventory availability for the Membership overall. A decision will be made when we better understand how long COVID-19 will impact our operations. As we anticipate high call volume in the days ahead, we encourage you to use the Disney Vacation Club website for general information – and we ask that you contact Member Services only if you need assistance with an existing reservation. Any Member who would like to book a new Disney Vacation Club Resort reservation or modify an existing reservation may do so through the Member Online Booking Tool. We realize that disruptions related to COVID-19 are altering your family’s vacation plans, and we thank you for your understanding during this unprecedented time. It is our commitment to stay focused on serving you with ongoing communication and updates. We look forward to “welcoming you home” as soon as we can.
	Stay well,
	Terri Schultz Senior Vice President Disney Vacation Club, Guided Adventures & Expeditions and Golden Oak

So it does sound like all might not be lost for those who are getting back soon-to-expire, non-bankable points when their reservations are cancelled. Of course it is unclear how these people can be helped out without impacting future DVC availability too much. Perhaps if Disney suspends Riviera sales and opens up unsold inventory, or issues vouchers for regular hotel stays as compensation?

 

[ziravan]

So it does sound like all might not be lost for those who are getting back soon-to-expire, non-bankable points when their reservations are cancelled. Of course it is unclear how these people can be helped out without impacting future DVC availability too much. Perhaps if Disney suspends Riviera sales and opens up unsold inventory, or issues vouchers for regular hotel stays as compensation?

Disney isn’t going to cannibalize it’s profit centers to make its timeshare owners whole. The timeshare owners are captive audiences and Disney is being harmed here, too, with a massive loss of income. They’ll need to make that money up, not sacrifice even more.

Point of fact, Disney tolerates the rental market but almost certainly doesn’t appreciate the competition. If the brokers go under because of this, they probably won’t lose much sleep. Certainly, they aren’t wasting any time or effort on trying to bail out the rental market that competes with them.

So far as owners go, they will do just enough to keep the push back for not doing more down to a manageable level of social media blowback, and not an ounce more. Honestly, there are competing interests and if they go too far in making some owners whole now, it’ll come at the expense of reduced availability for all owners later. That has consequences as well.

 

[GoingSince1990]

Disney isn’t going to cannibalize it’s profit centers to make its timeshare owners whole. The timeshare owners are captive audiences and Disney is being harmed here, too, with a massive loss of income. They’ll need to make that money up, not sacrifice even more.

Point of fact, Disney tolerates the rental market but almost certainly doesn’t appreciate the competition. If the brokers go under because of this, they probably won’t lose much sleep. Certainly, they aren’t wasting any time or effort on trying to bail out the rental market that competes with them.

So far as owners go, they will do just enough to keep the push back for not doing more down to a manageable level of social media blowback, and not an ounce more. Honestly, there are competing interests and if they go too far in making some owners whole now, it’ll come at the expense of reduced availability for all owners later. That has consequences as well.

Disney has a lot of Riviera still to sell and several more resorts in the pipeline. If there is a feeling that points owners got ripped off (and I wasn't just referring to points rented through a broker in my post) due to Disney closing the resorts, cancelling their vacations, and letting their nonbankable points expire with no compensation, that will make selling the remainder of Riviera and future resorts such as Reflections quite a bit more challenging.

 

[Nennie]

I have the same problem, APs expiring mid August. For this reason alone, David's "travel credit" is essentially useless to me.

You might be okay, especially if Disney extends AP exp dates which is pretty much certain. There also might be a lot of David's renters who want to wait to travel until next year, so if you are the opposite and want to go sooner rather than later, things could work out perfect for you. Good luck!!!

 

[foodiddiedoo]

Honestly, I would be too, This credit requires the broker to have owners willing to make points available. If there are issues with current owners getting full payment, that pool may dry up.

I would also want to be sure that the credit Is for the same number of points, and not dollar amount so that renter isn’t required to pay more since rates go up.

It will certainly be the right fit for some renters whose original owners can make it right.

The credit isn't for points it's in a dollar amount. I imagine that would mean if I wanted to rebook for later in the year, I'd end up owing MORE money for my postponed trip to Aulani?

Here's the exact email that David's is sending out:

We understand the severe impact that the COVID-19 virus is having. We want to assure you that we are doing everything in our power to accommodate the points you rented, given the confines of the Rental Agreement and the Disney Vacation Club rules. We are prepared to issue those that were affected by the Disney Vacation Club Resort closures a Travel Credit through David’s Vacation Club Rentals. This Travel Credit will be the dollar value of the cost of your DVC Rental less any compensation already received. As this Credit is in its infancy and we are working with several facets of our business, we do not have all of the details to provide to you today.


We ask that you don’t send more than one email; every email sent takes resources away to sort through.


We will be reaching out to you in the next few weeks to provide you with exact details about how the Credit works, your dollar value, how to redeem your Credit, and the terms and conditions.

 

[Sandisw]

The credit isn't for points it's in a dollar amount. I imagine that would mean if I wanted to rebook for later in the year, I'd end up owing MORE money for my postponed trip to Aulani?

Here's the exact email that David's is sending out:

We understand the severe impact that the COVID-19 virus is having. We want to assure you that we are doing everything in our power to accommodate the points you rented, given the confines of the Rental Agreement and the Disney Vacation Club rules. We are prepared to issue those that were affected by the Disney Vacation Club Resort closures a Travel Credit through David’s Vacation Club Rentals. This Travel Credit will be the dollar value of the cost of your DVC Rental less any compensation already received. As this Credit is in its infancy and we are working with several facets of our business, we do not have all of the details to provide to you today.


We ask that you don’t send more than one email; every email sent takes resources away to sort through.


We will be reaching out to you in the next few weeks to provide you with exact details about how the Credit works, your dollar value, how to redeem your Credit, and the terms and conditions.

Honestly, as a renter, I’d still be concerned, Right now, getting rebooked will take a bit of effort due to normal DVC availability patterns,

However, you know have a lot of DVC owners looking to rebook their own vacations so what may have typically been a possibility is going to be much harder, especially since we have people who have points that are currently use or lose.

Of course, being Aulani it may be a bit easier to find rooms than WDW, but still dealing with what is there,

You can look up the points charts yourself and it would give you an idea of what it would cost you points wise to rebook, You also have to consider that the price being charged is more now...mayor may not be for you.

To rebook at Aulani, the broker needs an Aulani point owner to secure you something from 7 to 11 months from now, if there are no Aulani owner offering to rent, then you will be forced to try 7 months or less from check in.

Im sorry you are going through this. It is certainly something none of us imagined.

 

[DGsAtBLT]

The credit isn't for points it's in a dollar amount. I imagine that would mean if I wanted to rebook for later in the year, I'd end up owing MORE money for my postponed trip to Aulani?

Here's the exact email that David's is sending out:

We understand the severe impact that the COVID-19 virus is having. We want to assure you that we are doing everything in our power to accommodate the points you rented, given the confines of the Rental Agreement and the Disney Vacation Club rules. We are prepared to issue those that were affected by the Disney Vacation Club Resort closures a Travel Credit through David’s Vacation Club Rentals. This Travel Credit will be the dollar value of the cost of your DVC Rental less any compensation already received. As this Credit is in its infancy and we are working with several facets of our business, we do not have all of the details to provide to you today.


We ask that you don’t send more than one email; every email sent takes resources away to sort through.


We will be reaching out to you in the next few weeks to provide you with exact details about how the Credit works, your dollar value, how to redeem your Credit, and the terms and conditions.

That’s another problem. When we booked the prices were $1 per point lower, so that would likely mean our credit would get us $500 ish less value than it did when we booked.

Not that I am comfortable accepting a credit as resolution, but if I was that would be a significant issue. Between their own price increase and what I’m guessing is point chart changes since last year, our same dates in 2021 are approximately $1500 more per room (just punched it into their calculator). Yikes.

 

[foodiddiedoo]

That’s another problem. When we booked the prices were $1 per point lower, so that would likely mean our credit would get us $500 ish less value than it did when we booked.

Not that I am comfortable accepting a credit as resolution, but if I was that would be a significant issue. Between their own price increase and what I’m guessing is point chart changes since last year, our same dates in 2021 are approximately $1500 more per room (just punched it into their calculator). Yikes.

Yeah, I just checked my week for next April and it would be 580 dollars more for 259 points. I was hoping to be able to go some point later in the year like an October time frame, and that would be about 300 dollars more. I know that won't make or break me, but like @Sandisw said in their post, it's really a loss for the renter and some people may no longer be able to afford their trips and stuck with a credit that might not be able to be used.
@Sandisw Thank you for the kind words though! Now can someone please make my 5 year old stop asking me when we're going to Hawaii???

 

[Deb & Bill]

Yeah, I just checked my week for next April and it would be 580 dollars more for 259 points. I was hoping to be able to go some point later in the year like an October time frame, and that would be about 300 dollars more. I know that won't make or break me, but like @Sandisw said in their post, it's really a loss for the renter and some people may no longer be able to afford their trips and stuck with a credit that might not be able to be used.
@Sandisw Thank you for the kind words though! Now can someone please make my 5 year old stop asking me when we're going to Hawaii???

October is a very hard time to book at less than 10-11 months out.