Do you think you would say "some thing" if faced with warning signs?

[NotUrsula]

I personally feel that this sort of unhinged violence is a direct result of the elimination of the public mental hospitals systems. It used to be that people could be committed for threats and for refusing to stay on their meds, but not any more.

I'm by no means advocating a return to barbaric practices and warehousing of the mentally ill, but the hospital system had one incontrovertable upside: it largely kept the violent off the streets without having to have someone really get hurt first.

(And yes, I did have a lot of close-up experience with the system. My mother was a paranoid schizophrenic and was hospitalized several times for her own safety and that of her children. Naturally, she didn't like being there, but when she was off her meds and really delusional, it was the proper place for her to be.)

 

[Magpie]

While I understand the desire to do more, I hate the idea of private citizens being able to decide who among the people around them is "off" and report them to some kind of central authority. I don't want to live in that kind of world, where it's assumed you might be a killer just because you're different from the norm.

When I was a young adult, I knew a guy who scared me. He felt "off". Put the little hairs on the back of my neck up. Then one day I happened to be at the same party as him, and he walked up behind me. I had a friend's ferret in my hands when I turned around. He saw the ferret, and his face literally turned white. He staggered and almost fainted! All of a sudden I realized that what felt so "off" about him was the fact that he was walking around in a constant state of fear. Later I found out he'd been diagnosed with a severe anxiety disorder. The man wasn't any danger to me or anyone else, he was just afraid, and it was making me feel afraid, too.

My children's godfather is severely bipolar and while he can certainly be "off" sometimes, there's no more gentle, kind man in the world. I trust him completely.

My best friend is OCD and is medicated for chronic depression. We once went to see a museum show about eugenics together, and there was a section on the Nazis killing the mentally ill in an attempt to erase mental illness from the human race. I was appalled, but my best friend took a funny kind of comfort from it. "See?" she said, "No matter what you do, no matter how hard you try, you can't get rid of the mentally ill. We're always here, whether you like it or not!"

 

[Cindy B]

As a teacher in a rough area, I see "interesting" students all the time. I see kids that assault others, assault teachers, threaten, punch, kick and smirk the whole time while doing it. I know a particular student that the entire class of *tough* kids is afraid of.. the student is an *extra tough* kid. This student has routinely threatened me and says he will be at my car.

I've referred him countless times. The principal knows, the vice principal know, the police know, guidance know, youth and family services know.. and well, its sort of just wait and see when this individual does what he does.

While I was a college student, I had an "off" student in one of my writing classes. Every single work he submitted was about guns and shooting. When the assignment had nothing to do with guns and shooting -write a story consisting of one syllable words, write in AAVE (African American "slang"), write a technical manual, rephrase a famous speech into current language-- it was still about guns, shooting and killing. He wore lots of military clothes, long trenchcoats and had a shaved head.

Our writing group was myself (an older student), this student and three younger women. Our job as a group was to peer review everyone elses writing. After about the third assignment, I went to the professor (who was also the department head). I showed him the work and stated how nervous the younger girls were. The professor took the complaint seriously and had a long talk/conference with the student. I also think the student got referred to the counseling department. After the discussion, the writing was still about guns and killing but less graphic. We were still worried though. We consciously sat near the door so we could make a quick exit. I joked that my thick 5 inch texbook could stop bullets. It was a long and tense semester but our group breathed a sigh of relief when it was over.

 

[Carly_Roach]

Everyone single one of us at some time in our lives has exhibited what others might interpret as "warning signs". Everyone. Yet I know no one or have heard of any of them who've actually gone out and become violent. I don't know a single parent, friend, wife, husband, BF, GF or sibling who hasn't uttered the phrase "I'm going to KILL that (insert your target)!" when faced with yet another thing that has gone wrong with the other person. Yet none of them actually killed anyone. It was just a phrase uttered in the heat of anger.

It's already too easy to Monday Morning Quarterback these issues and think that you can prevent crazy. Crazy happens. You can't prevent it.

I'd rather live with the slim to none chance that crazy might happen to me than live in a country where people can cry witch simply because someone else acted "off" and now that "off" person has to try to prove a negative (IE: I'm not crazy).

So no. I wouldn't say anything if I saw "warning signs" unless that person were threatening me and I have evidence to back it up.

 

[NHdisneylover]

Everyone single one of us at some time in our lives has exhibited what others might interpret as "warning signs". Everyone. Yet I know no one or have heard of any of them who've actually gone out and become violent. I don't know a single parent, friend, wife, husband, BF, GF or sibling who hasn't uttered the phrase "I'm going to KILL that (insert your target)!" when faced with yet another thing that has gone wrong with the other person. Yet none of them actually killed anyone. It was just a phrase uttered in the heat of anger.

It's already too easy to Monday Morning Quarterback these issues and think that you can prevent crazy. Crazy happens. You can't prevent it.

I'd rather live with the slim to none chance that crazy might happen to me than live in a country where people can cry witch simply because someone else acted "off" and now that "off" person has to try to prove a negative (IE: I'm not crazy).

So no. I wouldn't say anything if I saw "warning signs" unless that person were threatening me and I have evidence to back it up.

I absolutely agree with the bolded.

There are times when I would (and have) say something. Generally when I feel saying something may truly be helpful. For example, if someone I know truly seems depressed and I think they may not realize that is what is going on I might broach the subject with them, or with someone else who cares about them and may have more influence over the person (parent, spouse, etc). If I feel strongly that someone is exhibiting signs of potentially becoming very violent, I would let the people in charge of the area we come n contact in know my feelings and why I feel that way--then they can determine if they should more closely watch that person or not.

I do not think anyone who has no history of hurting others should be locked up (or forcibly medicated) because they might possibly hurt someone some day--and certainly not simply because they seem "off" or different to whoever the powers that be are.

 

[EMom]

Everyone single one of us at some time in our lives has exhibited what others might interpret as "warning signs". Everyone. Yet I know no one or have heard of any of them who've actually gone out and become violent. I don't know a single parent, friend, wife, husband, BF, GF or sibling who hasn't uttered the phrase "I'm going to KILL that (insert your target)!" when faced with yet another thing that has gone wrong with the other person. Yet none of them actually killed anyone. It was just a phrase uttered in the heat of anger.

It's already too easy to Monday Morning Quarterback these issues and think that you can prevent crazy. Crazy happens. You can't prevent it.

I'd rather live with the slim to none chance that crazy might happen to me than live in a country where people can cry witch simply because someone else acted "off" and now that "off" person has to try to prove a negative (IE: I'm not crazy).

So no. I wouldn't say anything if I saw "warning signs" unless that person were threatening me and I have evidence to back it up.

I must run with a different crowd. I know a ton of people who have never exhibited even the first warning sign. They seem to be a pretty normal bunch. A few may have said, "I'm gonna kill ____," but it was said in such an obviously joking way that it could never have been mistaken for a warning sign.

I've only known a few (outside of court cases) that set my radar off. A couple of students back when I was teaching.....I moved away and have no idea if they ever snapped. One young man I knew.....And yes, the warning signs came to pass and he was involved in a school shooting. At least his family had been trying to get him help. The teen I mentioned earlier.....Well, I'll bet the farm something awful will come from him someday. Bad things already have, the parents ignore it and the aunts/uncles/cousins have no ability to do anything about it. Once he hits 18, even his parents will be powerless. He is the very definition of "that boy ain't right." Then there was the guy who set off my alarm bells in the worst way after our first meeting, so much so that I went out of my way to avoid him. He turned out to be a serial killer. In his case, he had a history of harming people and his family had a history of covering his rear.

I don't know......I think it may not be THAT hard to separate the high risk scaries/crazies from the lower risk ones.

 

[lovemygoofy]

There is big difference in being "off" and having mental issues.

There are people that you know that may respond well to stress or have some emotional growing to do. Others KNOW people that have ISSUES and I mean the kind that hit you with the textbook.

It simply is not fair that we have to wait until something happens to have this conversation about a person. It's not fair that someone has to be killed to get this kid some help because ALL the signs were there that something was not right.

Ten years ago in college, we had a new student. This was a tiny college with not even 500 kids on campus. This new guy was instantly affixated on specific women including myself because I was nice to him. He had no idea about personal space to the point he would be as close to your face as a lover and he would try to touch in places he should not. Not once but twice he broke into my dorm room and was going through my panty drawer. The second time he did it I threatend to throw him off my balcony. He'd been reported over and over for things and conversations that shouldn't occur but oh waived off as boys will be boys kinda thing. After all this was a private college and his parents paid cash.

Nothing happened until he ran down a girl and tried to rape her in the middle of the quad. He was chased by security guards all over campus and did alot of damage including harming another girl. Come to find out he had been expelled from 2 other campuses for mental illness. Why should someone be potentially raped or shot or something else when textbook signs are hitting someone in the face?

I would think if my child had been kicked out of community college for mental health reasons, he would be in a hospital getting help for a long long time.

I have a friend right now that is going through this with her 15 year old. Her son has tried to hurt himself, his siblings, other family members and she just wants to get him more therapy or higher meds. She doesn't want to recognize that her son may not be able to cope with the real world right now and needs more than she could do. I will never be alone with this child.

 

[Tasha+Scott]

I went to Jr. High and High School with a boy that scared me. He had a lot of anger and was into violence, drugs, gangs, etc. He got expelled from school, etc. He just seemed crazy to me. I remember telling some friends I could picture him killing someone someday but they all thought I was the crazy one. He was popular enough and could be outgoing and get along with peers when he wanted. He just had a lot of "crazy" tendencies in my opinion.

But what really could I have done about it at that point anyway? He had not done anything serious enough. He had gone to juvenile hall and all for different things but had not actually killed anyone. I think the warning signs were there but until he actually did something reporting him would not have done all that much good, I'm sure.

Fast forward to about 3 years after high school, I saw him again...this time on the news. He and a friend of his had shot and killed his friend's grandfather when the grandfather refused to give them his money. It's the one time I wish my instincts had been wrong.

 

[jodifla]

In the Arizona case, certainly people around him knew and spoke up. He was even kicked out of college!

The problem is that once someone is an adult, it's hard even for the parents to do anything.

Florida does have the Baker Act law, in which someone can be hospitalized for 48 hours for assessment if they seem like a danger to themselves or others.

 

[Magpie]

There is big difference in being "off" and having mental issues.

I agree! And there's also a difference between having mental issues and being a dangerous person.

 

[LisaR]

I personally feel that this sort of unhinged violence is a direct result of the elimination of the public mental hospitals systems. It used to be that people could be committed for threats and for refusing to stay on their meds, but not any more.

I'm by no means advocating a return to barbaric practices and warehousing of the mentally ill, but the hospital system had one incontrovertable upside: it largely kept the violent off the streets without having to have someone really get hurt first.

(And yes, I did have a lot of close-up experience with the system. My mother was a paranoid schizophrenic and was hospitalized several times for her own safety and that of her children. Naturally, she didn't like being there, but when she was off her meds and really delusional, it was the proper place for her to be.)

I don't have a link, proof or statistics so this is strictly just my opinion but things were much different than they are today. We have a hands-off approach until it is too late. I agree that I don't want to go back to the barbaric practices of long ago but some of these people just mentioned in this thread alone need some serious help. We need to rethink the hands-off approach until they kill someone. There has to be a happy medium between barbaric practices and doing nothing until it is too late.

 

[kellyg403]

In the Arizona case, certainly people around him knew and spoke up. He was even kicked out of college!

The problem is that once someone is an adult, it's hard even for the parents to do anything.

Florida does have the Baker Act law, in which someone can be hospitalized for 48 hours for assessment if they seem like a danger to themselves or others.

Lots of people knew there was a problem, but he was 22 years old, probably was not covered under any health insurance or did not feel he needed help. I am not sure how the family reacted, but most families go above and beyond to help their mentally ill loved one get the help they need. The problem is that he had to want it. With the amount of paronia coming out in his writings, they are the hardest to get help for. They are leery of the system, the doctors,their family etc. He had a safe where he kept his most important things. I would imagine that not only were the parents afraid of him but were in a situation where absolutely nothing could be done. He had to 'do' something..either to himself or someone else to be put in a 48 hour hold.

Having dealt with someone who was severly paranoid, its really really hard. They won't eat anything they don't cook themselves, they won't get medical help unless they are forced, they really honestly believe everyone is out to get them.

I am just having a hard time feeling anything but grief for his parents as well as everyone who was a victim. Until we found out they did absolutely nothing and pretended he was 'sane' or 'normal' I will have to revert to personal experience with mental illness and assume they looked, they begged, they worried and no one anywhere could help them.

OP..the orginial question? Nope..probably not. I don't really even know what normal is anymore. I don't want to live anywhere where there is a defined sense of what 'normal' is.


Kelly

 

[kellyg403]

I don't have a link, proof or statistics so this is strictly just my opinion but things were much different than they are today. We have a hands-off approach until it is too late. I agree that I don't want to go back to the barbaric practices of long ago but some of these people just mentioned in this thread alone need some serious help. We need to rethink the hands-off approach until they kill someone. There has to be a happy medium between barbaric practices and doing nothing until it is too late.

Kelly

 

[Eeyores Butterfly]

Unfortunately, there are procedures in place (at least in some states) but they are not always followed. Seung-Hoi Cho, the VA Tech shooter, was actually placed in an involuntary psychiatric hold and court ordered to therapy. This was supposed to keep him from buying guns. But he did not disclose it on his gun applications and IIRC, it didn't get entered into a database. He was able to successfully complete a background check and the 30 day waiting period for the weapons he purchased. From Wikipedia:

Virginia state law on mental health disqualifications to firearms purchases, however, is worded slightly differently from the federal statute. So the form that Virginia courts use to notify state police about a mental health disqualification addresses only the state criteria, which list two potential categories that would warrant notification to the state police: someone who was "involuntarily committed" or ruled mentally "incapacitated".

I went to high school with a boy everyone thought was slightly "off." I don't know if he had any official diagnoses but it was something that many of us noticed and wondered about.

After graduating he went on to kill two family members and attempt suicide. In hindsight it was obvious that there was something wrong with him and all the pieces of the puzzle fit together, but I'm not sure what could have been done to prevent it if the boy wasn't willing to accept help. It's easy to look back and see obvious solutions but things aren't nearly as clear looking into the future. I am not familiar with the mental healthcare system in the US but it is frightening that so many people seem to slip through the cracks and go untreated.

I think a good place to start would be in schools. Particularly high schools and colleges where many symptoms first arise. Maybe more in-depth mental health training for teachers and guidance counselors? The ability for guidance counselors to make mandatory referrals to doctors/psychiatrists? Designated school psychologists? Just thinking out loud here, I'm not sure what the solution is. A difficult situation all around.

We do try to do things, but it's up to the family. We only have so much power. I have seen filed of elementary schoolers that would just shock most people here. I'm talking severe mental illness and hospitalization for suicidal/homicidal behaviors by the time they are in kindergarten.

I have a couple of students in my class with severe mental illness. These mental illnesses run in their families. In both cases our social worker has tried to intervene, but we can't turn them in for medical neglect because they won't properly medicate or seek help for their mentally ill kid. I think this is wrong. I could turn in a parent for medical neglect if it were a physical ailment that were not being handled properly, but not a mental one.

OUr social worker actually drives one of the parents to the doctor's appointments to make sure they go. We have had to call the police on kids in second and third grade because they got so out of control. I don't know how many times my class has had to leave our room because we are next to the recovery room. This often means missing out on lessons because we can't be in our room and either I or my para are having to help restrain.

It's not for lack of trying, but schools are almost powerless to help these kids. At some point, their parents have to. We have set up free counseling that comes to the school for the kids and their families, but then the families don't bother to show up. It's sad when you have to walk on egg shells around an elementary school kid and be in fear of the next explosion.

 

[tuckerkeys]

My neighbor is "off"....Thank goodness he's just a summertime neighbor and not there year round or else I might flip out on him!

Through the years it has gotten a lot worse.....It's all very innocent stuff but def. weird things going on....

My other neighbor and I are onto him & we've sort of let him know. Where I live is touristy. Most homeowners are there on weekends only. On Sunday nights in the summer like clockwork my neighbor goes out on a walk or on his bike with a big box and steals things from peoples yards.....Solar powered lights, mums, pumpkins, yard furniture.....things like this. Then he displays them in his yard.

He also steals peoples yard stones and shakes them out for hours in his yard....He can stand "arranging" the stones for hours staring at them. Constant looking over his shoulder like crazy paranoia, very OCD like behavior I could go on & on.....

My other neighbor has a birds eye view to the cray cray she lives right across the street from him.... We've ALWAYS said that if he were to go "postal" or abduct anyone that the typical reaction would be like what everyone always sees on the news shows like " Oh he was always so quiet and harmless"

My neighbor messed with him one day. She put a note in his mailbox that said " The aliens are coming to get you".....He put towels up in his windows as well as his car! Weird-o!!!!!

 

[Magpie]

My neighbor is "off"....Thank goodness he's just a summertime neighbor and not there year round or else I might flip out on him!

Through the years it has gotten a lot worse.....It's all very innocent stuff but def. weird things going on....

My other neighbor and I are onto him & we've sort of let him know. Where I live is touristy. Most homeowners are there on weekends only. On Sunday nights in the summer like clockwork my neighbor goes out on a walk or on his bike with a big box and steals things from peoples yards.....Solar powered lights, mums, pumpkins, yard furniture.....things like this. Then he displays them in his yard.

He also steals peoples yard stones and shakes them out for hours in his yard....He can stand "arranging" the stones for hours staring at them. Constant looking over his shoulder like crazy paranoia, very OCD like behavior I could go on & on.....

My other neighbor has a birds eye view to the cray cray she lives right across the street from him.... We've ALWAYS said that if he were to go "postal" or abduct anyone that the typical reaction would be like what everyone always sees on the news shows like " Oh he was always so quiet and harmless"

My neighbor messed with him one day. She put a note in his mailbox that said " The aliens are coming to get you".....He put towels up in his windows as well as his car! Weird-o!!!!!

I understand being annoyed with someone like that (especially if he's taking your lawn ornaments!), but there's no call for what your neighbour did; messing with him. That's just cruel bullying, and I'm sure that he's had more than enough of that already in his life.

Think of it this way - that, but for the grace of God and good brain chemistry, could be you.

Kicking cripples is wrong.

 

[JessicaR]

I understand being annoyed with someone like that (especially if he's taking your lawn ornaments!), but there's no call for what your neighbour did; messing with him. That's just cruel bullying, and I'm sure that he's had more than enough of that already in his life.

Think of it this way - that, but for the grace of God and good brain chemistry, could be you.

Kicking cripples is wrong.

I agree. I don't think the neighbor sounds volatile or dangerous at all based on the post. Stealing is illegal and I would nip that in the bud. Especially if its a daily occurrence and can be documented.

 

[Liberty Belle]

My neighbor is "off"....Thank goodness he's just a summertime neighbor and not there year round or else I might flip out on him!

Through the years it has gotten a lot worse.....It's all very innocent stuff but def. weird things going on....

My other neighbor and I are onto him & we've sort of let him know. Where I live is touristy. Most homeowners are there on weekends only. On Sunday nights in the summer like clockwork my neighbor goes out on a walk or on his bike with a big box and steals things from peoples yards.....Solar powered lights, mums, pumpkins, yard furniture.....things like this. Then he displays them in his yard.

He also steals peoples yard stones and shakes them out for hours in his yard....He can stand "arranging" the stones for hours staring at them. Constant looking over his shoulder like crazy paranoia, very OCD like behavior I could go on & on.....

My other neighbor has a birds eye view to the cray cray she lives right across the street from him.... We've ALWAYS said that if he were to go "postal" or abduct anyone that the typical reaction would be like what everyone always sees on the news shows like " Oh he was always so quiet and harmless"

My neighbor messed with him one day. She put a note in his mailbox that said " The aliens are coming to get you".....He put towels up in his windows as well as his car! Weird-o!!!!!

This makes me very angry. How dare she?! Call the police if he is stealing, but don't bully and torment someone who is mentally ill.
Furthermore, I have to say you neighbor sounds more dangerous than the other man.

 

[LisaR]

My neighbor is "off"....Thank goodness he's just a summertime neighbor and not there year round or else I might flip out on him!

Through the years it has gotten a lot worse.....It's all very innocent stuff but def. weird things going on....

My other neighbor and I are onto him & we've sort of let him know. Where I live is touristy. Most homeowners are there on weekends only. On Sunday nights in the summer like clockwork my neighbor goes out on a walk or on his bike with a big box and steals things from peoples yards.....Solar powered lights, mums, pumpkins, yard furniture.....things like this. Then he displays them in his yard.

He also steals peoples yard stones and shakes them out for hours in his yard....He can stand "arranging" the stones for hours staring at them. Constant looking over his shoulder like crazy paranoia, very OCD like behavior I could go on & on.....

My other neighbor has a birds eye view to the cray cray she lives right across the street from him.... We've ALWAYS said that if he were to go "postal" or abduct anyone that the typical reaction would be like what everyone always sees on the news shows like " Oh he was always so quiet and harmless"

My neighbor messed with him one day. She put a note in his mailbox that said " The aliens are coming to get you".....He put towels up in his windows as well as his car! Weird-o!!!!!

And this is the exact reason why some people go postal in the first place. You know he has very obvious problems but your neighbor bullies him. Nice.

 

[Tiggeroo]

I had a student recently get angry at another student and blow up over something minor. She said she was going to kill him, to shoot him, to get somebody to shoot him, over and over. She said he was dead, she said he would bleed. It was frightening. It was in the last minutes of class so no time to call security, she was out the door when the bell rang. There was no defusing the situation. She didn't even see me in the room. I went to my department head and then her guidance counselor personally. I also wrote down everything that happened for my own record. I'm waiting to see what happens but I know they did not call the police because she was still in school. I am hoping that she is reaquired to have a psych eval and not be returned to the class with this student at the very least. Perhaps placed in an alternative facility. I'm going back to her guidance counselor tomorrow if there is school to emphasize how serious I thought it was. I only spoke to him for a moment and I don't know for sure if he realized how bad I thought she was at the moment. I have never had a problem with this student before but have not had her long enough to know her history.