Do you think that God had sent the wrong people for guidance?

[yasooa]

You will read of the incest of prophet Lot with his two daughters (Genesis 19:36):
"Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father."

You will read of a Prophet who was married to two sisters at the same time (Genesis 29:28):
"And Jacob did so, and fulfilled her week: and he [Laban] gave him Rachel his daughter to wife also."

And another Prophet accused of adultery (II Samuel 11:4-5):
"And David sent messengers, and took her [the wife of Uriah]; and she came in unto him, and he lay with her; for she was purified from her uncleanness; and she returned unto her house. And the woman conceived, and sent and told David, and said, I am with child."

My question is: How could David then be accepted in the genealogy of Jesus when it stared with a person who committed adultery?
Allah forbid it! Is this not in contradiction with what is mentioned in Deuteronomy 23:2:
"A ******* shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the Lord."

Another allegation of incest along with rape by Ammon the son of David on his half-sister Tamar (II Samuel 13:14):
Howbeit he [Ammon] would not hearken unto her voice: but being stonger than she [Tamar], forced her, and lay with her."

Still another multiple rape, by Absalom on David's concubines, was told in II Samuel 16:33:
"So they spread Absalom a tent upon the top of the house, and Absalom went in unto his father's concubines in the sight of all Israel."
(I can't believe that any body in the world could do this, not even the barbarian.)

Another incest, by Judah and Tamar his daughter-in-law:
Judah on his way to Timnath to shear his sheep saw Tamar; he thought her to be a harlot because she had her face covered (Genesis 38:18):.. And he [Judah] gave it [signet, bracelet and staff] her, and came in unto her and she conceived by him."

Although Jews and Muslims are archenemies, no Muslim would dare to write a book and stamp any Israelite Prophet like Judah, David, Jesus, act. (Allah's blessings and peace be upon all of them forever and ever) with rape, adultery, incest or prostitution.

All Prophets were sent by Allah for the guidance of mankind. Do you think that God had sent the wrong people for guidance?

 

[bicker]

I think people have made the mistake of seeing divinity where they've wanted to, rather than relying on a more rational assessment of the evidence of their own senses. The key realization is that the guidance necessary doesn't come from out there but rather comes from inside each one of us. Divinity is no further than your own mind; there is no need to project it onto thoughts, objects or people outside yourself.

 

[Buckalew11]

I see you found this bookmark.

God sent the wrong people? No, I don't think so. God and the word wrong don't go together in my book. David was also a murderer and God used him and said he was a man after God's own heart.

We're all imperfect. Only Jesus was perfect. God has had to use imperfect people because we all do wrong things. Although I haven't committed adultry, my sin is still sin in the eyes of God. And sin still seperates man from God.

It wouldn't matter who Jesus came from--they've all been imperfect.

In fact, Ishmael is a product of a relationship between Abraham and Hagar because Abraham and Elizabeth got impatient waiting for the child God had promised. Still, God uses all kinds of people and situations. I am sure God wasn't pleased with the sins told to us in the OT but, just like them, we still do wrong today.

 

[ElizK]

You're post implies that God made a mistake. God, being God, NEVER makes mistakes. He didn't choose them because they were perfect. He doesn't even tell us why he chose them! But he DID choose them.

 

[snowwhitemom]

You're post implies that God made a mistake. God, being God, NEVER makes mistakes. He didn't choose them because they were perfect. He doesn't even tell us why he chose them! But he DID choose them.

Well said!!!

 

[Aidensmom]

I think God knows what He is doing.

I believe he chooses people that have done "bad" things to give his messages in order to show us that it is not our place to judge and that everyone is imperfect, or a "sinner".

Basically, if God can use a murderer, he can use us too.

 

[luvthatduke]

I agree with Aidensmom.

 

[jenfur]

Wow! Long time yasooa.

The Old Testament tells the truth about the prophets, warts and all, because we are all short of perfection.

Muhammad wanted his son's wife and when his son didn't want to give her up, Muhammad had a "convenient revelation" from heaven which said a father can take his adopted son's wife. Read Sura 33:36-38:

...When Zaid had accomplished what he would of her, then we gave her in marriage to you, so that there should not be any fault in the believers, touching the wives of their adopted sons, when they have accomplished what they would of them; and Allah's commandment must be performed. There is no fault in the prophet, touch what Allah had ordained for him.

Muhammad wrote in the Sura 4:3 that it is unlawful to have more than four wives, but he had more than four. Muslim scholar Ali Dashti lists 22 women in Muhammad's life, including 16 wives. One wife, Aesha, was only eight or nine years old when he took her to bed.

According to the Islam religion, the teachings of Muhammad and the Quran came STRAIGHT FROM HEAVEN and cannot have any earthly source. Yet Western scholarship easily shows that ALL of Islam is based on the customs and fables of pre-Islamic Arabia and misinterpretation of the Bible by Muhammad.

a) Please find one biblical prophet who thought that he was demon-possessed after his encounter with God.

b) Please find one biblical prophet who contemplated suicide as a result of thinking that he was demon-possessed.

c) Please find one biblical prophet who fell under Satanic possession, or was bewitched either by a sorcerer, occultist, Satanist, demon etc

Muhammad was often unsure if he was right, possessed, or crazy. Would God choose a prophet who couldn't tell the difference between God and Satan? Would he choose a confused man to guide the world?

 

[bicker]

I believe perfection is a red herring. Each person defines perfection differently. There is no universal Truth except that for which the evidence is readily evident to even a skeptic. All spiritualism is filtered through humanity's lens of perception, including the bits wherein people seek to attribute divinity to their own definition of perfection by associating it with aspects of their own definition. An honest demonstration of divinity would require no reliance on old tomes, suspension of any disbelief, or projection of reality that doesn't actually tangibly exist.

 

[hokiefan33]

I believe perfection is a red herring. Each person defines perfection differently. There is no universal Truth except that for which the evidence is readily evident to even a skeptic. All spiritualism is filtered through humanity's lens of perception, including the bits wherein people seek to attribute divinity to their own definition of perfection by associating it with aspects of their own definition. An honest demonstration of divinity would require no reliance on old tomes, suspension of any disbelief, or projection of reality that doesn't actually tangibly exist.

So basically, it's all gray and there is no black and white, is that what you're saying with all your big words?

Do you believe there is any absolute truth?

 

[ead79]

yasooa, just as an FYI, the Biblical people you mentioned are not seen as prophets in Christianity.

I know where this is headed based on past posts, so that’s all I’ve got to say.

 

[bicker]

So basically, it's all gray and there is no black and white, is that what you're saying with all your big words?

I'm sorry my wording disturbed you.

To answer your question: The only way to believe in black-and-white is to assume that your own perspective trumps that of everyone else -- in other words, to commit the sin of hubris. There are hundreds of millions of Buddhists... to assert that there is an absolute Truth (that isn't theirs ) would be to assert that those hundreds of millions of people are deluded, and to assume that would be morally wrong.

Each person has an unequivocal human right to pursue their search for Truth on their own terms. We establish societies so that people can live together while pursuing this search individually. Where societies exists with people who cannot tolerate others pursuing that search in their own way, we have strife. Luckily, we live in a society where, at least on paper, that type of intolerance is unacceptable.

 

[ead79]

bicker, I know I said I was done with this thread, but your response really interests me.

My question for you is how do you allow for those who believe in absolute truth in your way of thinking? In other words, my beliefs include the concept that there is an absolute truth for everyone, and these beliefs do not allow for universalism or “multiple paths.” I certainly don’t assert that people who believe otherwise are deluded, I just don’t agree with them. It is not coming from a place of judgement, it’s just that believing that Buddhist truth is the same as (for me personally) Biblical truth is not something that jives with my beliefs. I don’t see how believing in absolutes is hubris when that is what is required of your belief system. For instance, if a Buddhist asserted that his way was the absolute truth, I would understand his belief. I wouldn’t agree, but I wouldn’t see it as hubris—just as believing fully in his own doctrine.

I certainly agree with you that every person has the right to pursue their own relationship with God/truth on their own terms. It is my belief that forced worship isn’t genuine worship, and I don’t believe God wants “robots.” I would never attempt to force someone to agree with me, and I’m glad we live in a country where everyone is free to choose their own beliefs.

 

[bicker]

My question for you is how do you allow for those who believe in absolute truth in your way of thinking?

Respect for the beliefs of others is an implicit obligation, but only so far as that respect is returned. When folks seek to protect their right to live within themselves in accordance with their own beliefs, I'm first in queue to defend their right. When folks seek to impinge on the rights of others to live within themsevles in accordance with their own beliefs, I'm first in queue to object.

it’s just that believing that Buddhist truth is the same as (for me personally) Biblical truth is not something that jives with my beliefs.

And no one should expect that. Rather, what is reasonable to expect is to grant that Buddhist truth to a Buddhist is the same as Biblical truth is to you.

I don’t see how believing in absolutes is hubris when that is what is required of your belief system.

It's a matter of scope. If you believe in an absolute truth "for you" then it is absolute for you -- but technically isn't completely absolute.

For instance, if a Buddhist asserted that his way was the absolute truth

Well, I doubt that would ever happen.

 

[cardaway]

To answer your question: The only way to believe in black-and-white is to assume that your own perspective trumps that of everyone else -- in other words, to commit the sin of hubris. There are hundreds of millions of Buddhists... to assert that there is an absolute Truth (that isn't theirs ) would be to assert that those hundreds of millions of people are deluded, and to assume that would be morally wrong.

Well said.

 

[2funny2c]

Just a symptom of postmodernism. People feel that there is no absolute truth. Everything is relative to your experiences and situation. Experience trumps truth. Relativism and pluralism. How sad. There is and always will be absolute truth whether you believe in it or not. I am sure you hold some absolutes that you cling to in your own value system. This is where the whole, "there is no absolute truth" view falls apart.

People that claim that there is no absolute truth are often very selective in how they would like to see that flawed idea played out in real life. They want absolutes when it comes to the justice system but not when it comes to the religious arena.

Truth is not a relative principal. Relativism and pluralism are just 2 more roads leading to your ultimate undoing.

 

[bicker]

It's not a "symptom": Rather, it's a reflection of progress -- progress that is a natural consequence of the passage of time. Everything always has been relative to an individual's experiences and situation. It has just been, until recent times, that the diversity was either not evident (due to perhaps geographic barriers) or suppressed. Our modern world has simply made the disparity between those individual experiences and situations more readily evident, and so now we are much more in a position to see the lack of absolute truth, as reflected in that disparity. If there was absolute truth, then the diverse civilizations of the world would have all independently developed a consistent understanding of that absolute truth. The fact that different civilizations developed different perspectives demonstrates that truth is what people have decided it is.

 

[cardaway]

If there was absolute truth, then the diverse civilizations of the world would have all independently developed a consistent understanding of that absolute truth. The fact that different civilizations developed different perspectives demonstrates that truth is what people have decided it is.

Most religions (and then typically civilizations based on that religion) share many of the same ideas of right and wrong. Those just happen to be best for the growth and well being of civilization as a whole.

Common truths, yes. Absolute, no.

 

[caitycaity]

long time no see yasooa. for a second i thought this was an old post that got bumped up.

 

[bicker]

Yes, very true, Cardaway. I would go so far as to say there are some truths that are for all practical purposes "absolute." I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. The issue, though, is when people assume that the entire set of their beliefs constitute the entire set of those absolute truths. Generally, those absolute truths are a small subset of any one belief system.