Do You think DISNEY has gone down hlll the last few years?

[DOOM1001]

Yes,Disney has gone downhill recently.No more daily concerts at the Flower and Garden festival,ESPN the weekend is now a thing of the past,Grad Nite is now a thing of the past,even though they haven't had it for several years they also removed the Super Soap Weekend.The Lights of Winter at Epcot were removed with no replacement,they also had a tree lighting show there that's also gone.Removing all the clubs at Pleasure Island and having them just sit empty for about a decade,finally they decide to do something and it stalls again.And then you have really customer friendly decisions like that new TS cancellation policy.I'm a huge Disney and theme park fan and Disney obviously is the big fat cash cow in the theme park world,people keep coming and they keep removing events,not expanding the parks the way a company that makes as much money as they do should be and I know people will still be coming,but if a day comes when attendance and profits begin to drop they can only blame themselves,the problem is that they know this and why the new Fantasyland area is being built,to make up for all the downgrades they know they've been putting out there.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

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Actually, you're data is flawed. I'm sorry, Master's Degree or not. How can you have "absolute" concrete "DATA" when Disney doesn't even really give us correct numbers/data? Your analysis in MY OPINION is flawed, or null and void.

I really am not sure what to say to this... I'm positive that I never said that I have "absolute concrete data"... not even sure what that would mean... the data is Disney's, not "mine"... and I'm not sure what you mean about Disney not giving us correct numbers/data. Am I right to assume you mean they don't give detailed or complete enough data for a full analysis to be perfect? If that's what you mean, I agree with you... and NO COMPANY does... 10-K's are deliberately opaque as to not divulge things like marketing practices that confer a competitive advantage. Analysts have to work with the data they do have... like what was posted earlier. They use that, and not individual observations for a reason. While not perfect, it allows for more solid conclusions to be drawn... the types of conclusions that people pay for, for instance.

With that said, if Disney was projecting great occupancy rates they would not have the FREE DINING offer 9 months out of the year. They also would not have FREE DINING during various holiday periods. They have never done this before in years past, EVER. They are doing this to BRING in more people to occupy their resorts. With that said, there is still much available vacancy rates where as years ago there would be close to zero vacancy.

You can't pull these pieces apart... you can't view the marketing strategy of offering free dining without looking at the pricing strategy of resorts, without looking at the pricing of merchandise, without looking at film releases, without looking at economic projections, and on, and on. You cannot view one piece of data in isolation and expect to come to any real conclusion. It's just more complicated than that, especially with a big cross-marketer like Disney. The best proxy for getting ALL of this information reflected is to look at the aggregate numbers in the 10-K... the figures I analyzed in another post today. Not perfect, but better than citing free dining at a given point in the year -- IF the goal is to view this as objectively and completely as is realistically possible.

Another thing, Disney as a "WHOLE" is a great vacation. We all agree to that. Some things, though are in a decline, maybe this is not noticed by your newcomer or newbie, but plenty of people that go to Disney once a year or once every 2 years have noticed a decline ON SOME THINGS. These "THINGS" are food, some restaurants, monorail issues, some of the resorts, mousekeeping, holiday decorations etc. We have noticed on this DIS board about some of the complaints. A few years back complaints were very low and were not as prevalent as they are now. People are starting to notice. BUT, as I said at the same time Disney as a whole is a great place. We keep going back, as do most people on this very thread. We just don't go to certain restaurants, we don't do the "parties" in the MK, so we do show our concern in various ways with our wallet.

Brunette

I agree with you 110% here!! It is about the WHOLE package!! And you know, Disney has people everywhere monitoring customer feedback in a gazillion (technical term ) ways, right?! So this talk on here is something they might just take notice of... might just inform some of their thinking... like bringing in some new chefs, or making some other tweaks back to past standards when the economy picks up more and cash is really flowing (*fingers crossed*!).

Nice chatting with you, too (like with KellyNY today), though I fear I have &*#$%ed you off...

Talk to all you "downhillers" another day!! Time for dinner!

 

[brunette8706]

I think that we agree... mostly...

I actually think that people here are answering two different questions...
1) is Disney worth it anymore TO YOU?, and
2) is an opinion that Disney is in decline one that is WIDESPREAD enough to actually be a sign of a firm in decline?

In other words, has Disney declined IN YOUR EYES and/or in the eyes of ENOUGH CUSTOMERS to be a sign of "a company in decline", if you will.

There is NO SUCH THING as proof for or against 1)... it's all a matter of us each sharing our opinions about how our family has appraised the value of a Disney vacation these days, as compared to the past.

With question 2), there are data to cite that can either strengthen or weaken a case that enough customers find the COST of a Disney vacation to have EXCEEDED IT'S VALUE over time. Here, this becomes a task for a business / financial analyst -- whom of course we can step in and take the place of IF we actually analyze the FACTS and not our OPINIONS.

For my piece...
1) For our family, the value continues to be there in a Disney vacation at current costs -- and even higher, quite frankly. The price we place - and are willing and able to pay - for a magical experience like no other is quite high. Still worth it in my PERSONAL OPINION

2) As someone who has conducted a thorough business and financial analysis of Disney about one-and-a-half years ago, and having reviewed the data posted in this thread, I see no objective evidence that Disney or Disney Parks SBU is in decline. The data simply don't support that thesis in my PROFESSIONAL opinion.


To be sure, business/financial analysis is not a perfect "science"... if it was, we could find the "best analyst" and routinely beat the stock market!! And as I said before, my professional analyst's opinion could prove to be COMPLETELY wrong in the long run. But it IS NOT "just a personal opinion" born out of personal experience or a hope or preconceived notion that Disney isn't going downhill.Sooo... two separate things... 1) personal experience and opinion, and 2) analytical opinion based upon the data and analytical experience.Whew!! Got it all out... here's hoping it makes some sense...

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MIckeyMinnieMom-

With all due respect your analyse above you state that your analytical opinion based upon the "DATA" and analytical experience. It just doesn't make sense. Disney doesn't really give us concrete solid numbers/data. There are so many ways to slice and dice data and many have dependencies that I feel is way too complex to even comprehend it, let alone input it here on this forum. What I'm saying and what the premise of this thread is about, is PERSONAL experience. Yes, in my opinion things have declined a bit at Disney. Now mind you, not everything, "SOME" things. Like I said overall the Disney vacation is a very magical experience. But there are some things like I mention above that have been on the decline. I'm not making this up. We've read about it here on the DIS board. I will reiterate once again, what they are:

Food
Restaurants
Monorail issues
Bus issues
Lack of decorations
Ticket pricing

These are just a few. There have been more and more complaints on this very board about most of the above issues. I think with the economy the way it is, Disney is cutting back, at the same time they are raising their prices across the board. Further this is not a Disney BASH THREAD, it's merely an observation from thousands of people that have noticed this type of thing. The latest negative I read about was last week in the Baltimore Sun TRAVEL SECTION. Someone wrote to the paper complaining about the way the CM and the DVC treated a customer who paid THOUSANDS OF $$$$$$ for their Timeshare. I will try to find a link.

Brunette

 

[KSDisneyDad]

[/B]

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MIckeyMinnieMom-

With all due respect your analyse above you state that your analytical opinion based upon the "DATA" and analytical experience. It just doesn't make sense. Disney doesn't really give us concrete solid numbers/data. There are so many ways to slice and dice data and many have dependencies that I feel is way too complex to even comprehend it, let alone input it here on this forum. What I'm saying and what the premise of this thread is about, is PERSONAL experience. Yes, in my opinion things have declined a bit at Disney. Now mind you, not everything, "SOME" things. Like I said overall the Disney vacation is a very magical experience. But there are some things like I mention above that have been on the decline. I'm not making this up. We've read about it here on the DIS board. I will reiterate once again, what they are:

Food
Restaurants
Monorail issues
Bus issues
Lack of decorations
Ticket pricing

These are just a few. There have been more and more complaints on this very board about most of the above issues. I think with the economy the way it is, Disney is cutting back, at the same time they are raising their prices across the board. Further this is not a Disney BASH THREAD, it's merely an observation from thousands of people that have noticed this type of thing. The latest negative I read about was last week in the Baltimore Sun TRAVEL SECTION. Someone wrote to the paper complaining about the way the CM and the DVC treated a customer who paid THOUSANDS OF $$$$$$ for their Timeshare. I will try to find a link.

Brunette

Thousands of people? This thread has approximately 500 separate posters. The top 25 constitute over 71% of the posts. And some of the Top 25 are posting opposite opinions.

Someone posted on the DIS a few months back that the DIS only constitutes less than 3% of the total Disney visitors.

A few complaints from a couple of hundred posters is not evidence of decline. It's statistically insignificant.

And to quote an Op ed piece as evidence of decline is okay to post on this thread, but it's not okay to quote audited financial results?

I normally think most of your posts are reasonable and thoughtful, but this one seems a bit extreme. JMHO and sorry if I offended.

 

[brunette8706]

Thousands of people? This thread has approximately 500 separate posters. The top 25 constitute over 71% of the posts. And some of the Top 25 are posting opposite opinions.

Someone posted on the DIS a few months back that the DIS only constitutes less than 3% of the total Disney visitors.

A few complaints from a couple of hundred posters is not evidence of decline. It's statistically insignificant.

And to quote an Op ed piece as evidence of decline is okay to post on this thread, but it's not okay to quote audited financial results?

I normally think most of your posts are reasonable and thoughtful, but this one seems a bit extreme. JMHO and sorry if I offended.

*
I don't think it's extreme at all, to the contrare. What I am trying to relay ad nausem is that there are plenty of people and yes I would say in the thousands that have complained. For one there have been numerous complaints about the parties and decorations, numerous complaints about the monorail issues. There have been complaints in news papers and we hear more and more complaints on the DIS board. I'm sure Disney gets a lot of complaints that we don't even hear about. So, yes, my guess would be that the number would be in the thousands.

I'm sorry if I offended you, but I didn't think my post was that "extreme". I also really didn't like that fact that I was called a "downhiller". Gee, if you were offended by my post I'm sorry.

Brunette

 

[brunette8706]

Thousands of people? This thread has approximately 500 separate posters. The top 25 constitute over 71% of the posts. And some of the Top 25 are posting opposite opinions.

Someone posted on the DIS a few months back that the DIS only constitutes less than 3% of the total Disney visitors.

A few complaints from a couple of hundred posters is not evidence of decline. It's statistically insignificant.

And to quote an Op ed piece as evidence of decline is okay to post on this thread, but it's not okay to quote audited financial results?I normally think most of your posts are reasonable and thoughtful, but this one seems a bit extreme. JMHO and sorry if I offended.

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KSDISNEYDAD-

Where did I say it's not okay to quote audited financial results? The financial results is something that is public knowledge... The data I was referring to is the data presented by another poster in regards to Resort vacancy rates....

Brunette

 

[brunette8706]

Here's the link I was referring to in the Baltimore Sun Paper.

It's titled:

Disney's a Class Act, So What Went Wrong?

http://www.baltimoresun.com/travel/sc-trav-1101-trouble-20111101,0,4537901.story

 

[KellyNY]

Thousands of people? This thread has approximately 500 separate posters. The top 25 constitute over 71% of the posts. And some of the Top 25 are posting opposite opinions.

Someone posted on the DIS a few months back that the DIS only constitutes less than 3% of the total Disney visitors.

A few complaints from a couple of hundred posters is not evidence of decline. It's statistically insignificant.

And to quote an Op ed piece as evidence of decline is okay to post on this thread, but it's not okay to quote audited financial results?

I normally think most of your posts are reasonable and thoughtful, but this one seems a bit extreme. JMHO and sorry if I offended.

Actually this thread is kind of a summary of different threads we had and continue to have.
Problems we discuss here being discussed on this board, resort board, dining board. It is not only top 25, there are more and yes even top 25 do not agree on details but most of us and I mean all posters of this thread agree there are some problems, they just mean different things to each of us.

 

[Laketravis]

11/10/11 6:05pm CST LOS ANGELES (AP) -- Disney said Thursday that its fourth-quarter net income rose 30 percent, thanks to higher spending by theme park visitors and growth at pay TV operations ESPN and Disney Channel.

The conglomerate's theme parks saw revenue grow 11 percent to $3.13 billion. Higher ticket prices and hotel rates in addition to higher food and merchandise sales contributed to the growth. Attendance at its U.S. theme parks rose 1 percent, even though the company has been scaling back discounts that it put in during the recession in 2008 and 2009.

Analysts had been looking for any sign that the weak economy would hurt consumer spending, "but there was no sign of that in the parks," said Evercore analyst Alan Gould. "The stock price should work a little higher from here."

The company's net income for its full-year fiscal 2011 grew 21 percent to a record $4.8 billion, or $2.52 per share. Annual revenue also rose 7 percent to a record $40.89 billion."


I'd say prepare for more "going down hill" as WDW continues this maximize-profits strategy and an increasing number of people stand in line to spend more for less.

 

[flicx]

11/10/11 6:05pm CST LOS ANGELES (AP) -- Disney said Thursday that its fourth-quarter net income rose 30 percent, thanks to higher spending by theme park visitors and growth at pay TV operations ESPN and Disney Channel.

The conglomerate's theme parks saw revenue grow 11 percent to $3.13 billion. Higher ticket prices and hotel rates in addition to higher food and merchandise sales contributed to the growth. Attendance at its U.S. theme parks rose 1 percent, even though the company has been scaling back discounts that it put in during the recession in 2008 and 2009.

Analysts had been looking for any sign that the weak economy would hurt consumer spending, "but there was no sign of that in the parks," said Evercore analyst Alan Gould. "The stock price should work a little higher from here."

The company's net income for its full-year fiscal 2011 grew 21 percent to a record $4.8 billion, or $2.52 per share. Annual revenue also rose 7 percent to a record $40.89 billion."


I'd say prepare for more "going down hill" as WDW continues this maximize-profits strategy and an increasing number of people stand in line to spend more for less.

Ah yes there is that twist again.They say attendance grew by 1% at US parks.They love to combine disney world and disneyland.I'd like to know the disneyworld numbers.

 

[KSDisneyDad]

[/B]

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MIckeyMinnieMom-

With all due respect your analyse above you state that your analytical opinion based upon the "DATA" and analytical experience. It just doesn't make sense. Disney doesn't really give us concrete solid numbers/data. There are so many ways to slice and dice data and many have dependencies that I feel is way too complex to even comprehend it, let alone input it here on this forum. What I'm saying and what the premise of this thread is about, is PERSONAL experience. Yes, in my opinion things have declined a bit at Disney. Now mind you, not everything, "SOME" things. Like I said overall the Disney vacation is a very magical experience. But there are some things like I mention above that have been on the decline. I'm not making this up. We've read about it here on the DIS board. I will reiterate once again, what they are:

Food
Restaurants
Monorail issues
Bus issues
Lack of decorations
Ticket pricing

These are just a few. There have been more and more complaints on this very board about most of the above issues. I think with the economy the way it is, Disney is cutting back, at the same time they are raising their prices across the board. Further this is not a Disney BASH THREAD, it's merely an observation from thousands of people that have noticed this type of thing. The latest negative I read about was last week in the Baltimore Sun TRAVEL SECTION. Someone wrote to the paper complaining about the way the CM and the DVC treated a customer who paid THOUSANDS OF $$$$$$ for their Timeshare. I will try to find a link.

Brunette

Brunette,

See my highlights above to try to clarify where I was coming from in my prior post.

With respect to the thousands of complaints comments. As you can see in the red bolded, you said that this was not a bash thread, but it's an observation from "thousands" of people. I incorrectly assumed that the word "it's" was referring specifically to this thread. I didn't know that you were referring to complainers in general. I am sure you're right that there are thousands who have complained, but there are also millions who love Disney as evidenced by their earnings release today.

I don't want to get into a debate about this. I simply apologize for taking this out of context, but wanted to show you how I incorrectly concluded that you were only referring to this thread.

Second, with respect to not allowing numbers. See my blue bolded section above. I interpreted "let alone input it on this forum" to mean that you felt that MickeyMinnieMom should not have used the data as reported in the 10-K's and 10-Q's as posted on the Disney Investor Relations website. These numbers were originally posted from me and I got them from the Annual Reports on the Disney Investor Relations website here:

http://corporate.disney.go.com/investors/annual_reports.html

These are not made up numbers. They were filed with the SEC and were vetted by their auditors.

Overall, I probably overreacted, but I interpreted the tone of your post to mean that MickeyMinnieMom's thoughtful and diligent review of the numbers was inappropriate for this forum, but that it's okay to post an op ed piece in a local newspaper. If I wrote a letter to the editor of our local paper about how wonderful my Disney vacation was, do you think they'd print it? Using a single person's opinion as "evidence" of the downhill decline and my interpration that the data in the annual reports shouldn't be used seemed hypocritical to me and I wanted to call it out.

I still believe that this thread is simply just people's opinions. No amount of number slicing and dicing, anecdotal "evidence" or other facts/data will convince anyone to change their mind. It's all just your personal experience. Even the article you quoted was just one person's view. It's my opinion that it's the exception, not the norm based on my own personal experiences with Disney.

Back to the original topic. No, I don't think Disney has gone downhill. Instead, they have made lots of improvements over the years and continue to add new and exciting things. Does that mean I like all the changes? Of course not, but the positive far outweighs the negative in my opinion. Obviously, some on here disagree and that's okay.

Again, I didn't mean to attack, but was just hoping to point out how your post could have been interpreted different than perhaps how you intended it.

 

[KSDisneyDad]

Ah yes there is that twist again.They say attendance grew by 1% at US parks.They love to combine disney world and disneyland.I'd like to know the disneyworld numbers.

Does it really matter? Disney World is 4 major parks vs 2 at DL. If DW was down significantly, it'd pull the overall numbers down. Even if you assume that DL was up dramatically, DW would still be fairly close to the prior year and what does that really mean anyway? You can spin a single number anyway you want. I like to look at the overall numbers and not just one.

 

[KSDisneyDad]

[/B]

*
I will reiterate once again, what they are:

Food
Restaurants
Monorail issues
Bus issues
Lack of decorations
Ticket pricing

These are just a few. There have been more and more complaints on this very board about most of the above issues.

Brunette

Help me understand lack of decorations. I haven't been to Halloween or Christmas parties in over 5 years so don't know. All I know is that they have really upgraded the castle decorations at both DW and DL since our last trip during the holidays. The pictures look absolutely incredible of the castle. And this year they are adding Christmas elements to the MMY show on the castle. There are gigantic gingerbread houses at WDW, eleborate trees, the Osborne Family Spectacle of Lights, and incredible decor throughout the parks. I think complaining about the a lack of decorations at WDW is like a person complaining about not enough food on a buffet table. What you want may not be on the buffet, but there are still lots of other choices to more than fill you up.

 

[DisneyFive]

Actually if you look at post 3320.I said I thought the most significant increases have occured since 05.

Sorry missed that. I agree for the most part, but it depends on the resort. Cont and GF incresed at faster rates from '05-'12, but BC had slower increases, and the polynesion was about the same. Overall, the '05-'12 rate is faster, but both periods do outpace inflation.


From 2005 to 2012 the average annual price increase for the resorts you list:

Inflation during this period = 2.5%
Contemporary: 4.0%
Polynesion: 4.4%
Beach Club: 2.1%
Grand Floridian: 4.5%

The 1994-2005 rate:

Inflation during this period = 2.6%
Contemporary: 2.1%
Polynesion: 4.0%
Beach Club: 3.2%
Grand Floridian: 3.0%


Dan

 

[flicx]

Sorry missed that. I agree for the most part, but it depends on the resort. Cont and GF incresed at faster rates from '05-'12, but BC had slower increases, and the polynesion was about the same. Overall, the '05-'12 rate is faster, but both periods do outpace inflation.


From 2005 to 2012 the average annual price increase for the resorts you list:

Inflation during this period = 2.5%
Contemporary: 4.0%
Polynesion: 4.4%
Beach Club: 2.1%
Grand Floridian: 4.5%

The 1994-2005 rate:

Inflation during this period = 2.6%
Contemporary: 2.1%
Polynesion: 4.0%
Beach Club: 3.2%
Grand Floridian: 3.0%


Dan

No bigge Dan,I miss things alot too! My theory is that the last 5 or more years has been the biggest decline at disney across the board.I don't like the way current management is going.Thats just the way I feel.

 

[flicx]

Does it really matter? Disney World is 4 major parks vs 2 at DL. If DW was down significantly, it'd pull the overall numbers down. Even if you assume that DL was up dramatically, DW would still be fairly close to the prior year and what does that really mean anyway? You can spin a single number anyway you want. I like to look at the overall numbers and not just one.

Does it really matter?Why of course it does.This discussion is about WDW not DL.It isn't about the whole disney company,its about disney world.You really like to down play attendance don't you.If disney world dropped in attendance again this year that makes 2 years in a row with a decline in attendance.I think most companies are concerned when there is a decline in attendance in back to back years.I guess we will have to wait for the TEA numbers to come out since disney isn't forthcoming with numbers for the world.If you remember last year disney released a similar statement(domestic park attendance up) and after the TEA numbers came out we found out that 3 of the 4 parks at DW had a decline in attendance.

 

[brunette8706]

Yes,Disney has gone downhill recently.No more daily concerts at the Flower and Garden festival,ESPN the weekend is now a thing of the past,Grad Nite is now a thing of the past,even though they haven't had it for several years they also removed the Super Soap Weekend.The Lights of Winter at Epcot were removed with no replacement,they also had a tree lighting show there that's also gone.Removing all the clubs at Pleasure Island and having them just sit empty for about a decade,finally they decide to do something and it stalls again.And then you have really customer friendly decisions like that new TS cancellation policy.I'm a huge Disney and theme park fan and Disney obviously is the big fat cash cow in the theme park world,people keep coming and they keep removing events,not expanding the parks the way a company that makes as much money as they do should be and I know people will still be coming,but if a day comes when attendance and profits begin to drop they can only blame themselves,the problem is that they know this and why the new Fantasyland area is being built,to make up for all the downgrades they know they've been putting out there.

*
Yes, you're right. This is the purpose of this thread, to see some of the things that have declined. It's reasurring that some people like you, have THE INTELLIGENCE and PERCEPTION of understanding that whether or not a "personal opinion" can be relegated to data on a spreadsheet.

It is my EXPERIENCE and opinion that there are negatives in the direction that Disney chooses to take. It woiuld further appear, that the COO of Disney, is focused purely on numbers as some other people are, and thus missed the mark on trying to understand how people's opinions and feelings (which can not be measured with numbers, regardless of how "Professional" one claims to be) affect the personal experience that we have all grew to know as "special" to Disney. This is not withstanding that there are new projects going on also such as the Fantasyland expansion, AVATAR and cruise ships. I think Avatar opens in 2016.

DOOM1001, thank you for your perceptive response. Some of your concerns are ones we share. I forgot about the Soap Opera weekened and the ESPN weekend. It's a shame about the Winter of Lights, now that was spectacular! Anyway, I suspect that as long as there is "Iger type" CEO who is simply concerned with the bottom line and not what brought Disney to be the leader in vacation destinations in the first place.

Brunette

 

[brunette8706]

Brunette,

See my highlights above to try to clarify where I was coming from in my prior post.

With respect to the thousands of complaints comments. As you can see in the red bolded, you said that this was not a bash thread, but it's an observation from "thousands" of people. I incorrectly assumed that the word "it's" was referring specifically to this thread. I didn't know that you were referring to complainers in general. I am sure you're right that there are thousands who have complained, but there are also millions who love Disney as evidenced by their earnings release today.

Of course people love Disney, millions upon millions, me included. Yes there are tons of complaints about "some things" Disney. You can even google the complaints and see. But yes, millions just love WDW! As I stated earlier there are things in my opinion and other people opinions that, there are some things that are in the decline. The ones I suspect that would notice these things are the ones that go often, in which case we do. Anyway, I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree regarding the "decline of some things Disney.

I don't want to get into a debate about this. I simply apologize for taking this out of context, but wanted to show you how I incorrectly concluded that you were only referring to this thread.

Thank you for this. Apology accepted, no worries.

Second, with respect to not allowing numbers. See my blue bolded section above. I interpreted "let alone input it on this forum" to mean that you felt that MickeyMinnieMom should not have used the data as reported in the 10-K's and 10-Q's as posted on the Disney Investor Relations website. These numbers were originally posted from me and I got them from the Annual Reports on the Disney Investor Relations website here:

http://corporate.disney.go.com/investors/annual_reports.html

These are not made up numbers. They were filed with the SEC and were vetted by their auditors.

I know they are "not made up". I never did have a problem with your numbers, I agree with your numbers. The numbers are facts based on the investors annual report.

Overall, I probably overreacted, but I interpreted the tone of your post to mean that MickeyMinnieMom's thoughtful and diligent review of the numbers was inappropriate for this forum, but that it's okay to post an op ed piece in a local newspaper. If I wrote a letter to the editor of our local paper about how wonderful my Disney vacation was, do you think they'd print it? Using a single person's opinion as "evidence" of the downhill decline and my interpration that the data in the annual reports shouldn't be used seemed hypocritical to me and I wanted to call it out.

Once again, this has nothing to do with the numbers you reported from the annual report. That poster was going on about data and her "professional opinon" that Disney is not going down hill, all based on HER numbers...which can NOT be qualified. You can't measure the "decline of Disney" by attendance numbers. Everything is subjective and like I said earlier it carries dependencies i.e. the economy etc. Further, I didn't find her post "thoughtful" at all. Not when I'm called a downhiller. I also found her post to be somewhat arrogant. But that's water under the bridge. I don't want to dwell on it. As you know anyone is allowed to post anything they want on this thread as long as it conforms to the DIS board rules. Bottom line this thread is subjective. And, as I stated numerous times Disney is a great vacation. Disney is a GREAT value for us, we have annual passes. I'm a Disneyaholic, I love most everything Disney. But in my opinion there has been a downhill decline on "SOME" things.

I still believe that this thread is simply just people's opinions. No amount of number slicing and dicing, anecdotal "evidence" or other facts/data will convince anyone to change their mind. It's all just your personal experience. Even the article you quoted was just one person's view. It's my opinion that it's the exception, not the norm based on my own personal experiences with Disney.

Yes, exactly. I agree. It's very "subjective"

Back to the original topic. No, I don't think Disney has gone downhill. Instead, they have made lots of improvements over the years and continue to add new and exciting things. Does that mean I like all the changes? Of course not, but the positive far outweighs the negative in my opinion. Obviously, some on here disagree and that's okay.

And that's okay, you're entitled to your opinion. But in some areas of Disney (NOT ALL) I believe they have declined a bit. So, we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one and you're right, that's okay.

Again, I didn't mean to attack, but was just hoping to point out how your post could have been interpreted different than perhaps how you intended it.

Okay, thank you for your explanation.

 

[KSDisneyDad]

Does it really matter?Why of course it does.This discussion is about WDW not DL.It isn't about the whole disney company,its about disney world.You really like to down play attendance don't you.If disney world dropped in attendance again this year that makes 2 years in a row with a decline in attendance.I think most companies are concerned when there is a decline in attendance in back to back years.I guess we will have to wait for the TEA numbers to come out since disney isn't forthcoming with numbers for the world.If you remember last year disney released a similar statement(domestic park attendance up) and after the TEA numbers came out we found out that 3 of the 4 parks at DW had a decline in attendance.

I think it's ironic that you want to point to numbers to somehow prove your theory correct, but yet anytime anyone else points out any numbers to the contrary, you dismiss them.

I said in my post that I'd be interested in seeing the WDW numbers too, but I don't know what that will tell us. This is a thread of emotion, not numbers IMO. A single number can be spun any way you want it. A single number in a vacuum doesn't tell you a thing.

Yes,Disney has gone downhill recently.No more daily concerts at the Flower and Garden festival,ESPN the weekend is now a thing of the past,Grad Nite is now a thing of the past,even though they haven't had it for several years they also removed the Super Soap Weekend.The Lights of Winter at Epcot were removed with no replacement,they also had a tree lighting show there that's also gone.Removing all the clubs at Pleasure Island and having them just sit empty for about a decade,finally they decide to do something and it stalls again.And then you have really customer friendly decisions like that new TS cancellation policy.I'm a huge Disney and theme park fan and Disney obviously is the big fat cash cow in the theme park world,people keep coming and they keep removing events,not expanding the parks the way a company that makes as much money as they do should be and I know people will still be coming,but if a day comes when attendance and profits begin to drop they can only blame themselves,the problem is that they know this and why the new Fantasyland area is being built,to make up for all the downgrades they know they've been putting out there.

Of all the negatives you mentioned, we never experienced them with the exception of the Soap Opera weekend thing which was by pure accident as we were in Orlando for training the same weekend. My opinion was that Disney was quite smart to get rid of that ABC tie-in event. But again, it held no interest for our family.

With respect to a replacement for the lights of winter, what do you call the new lights on the castle? Those are fairly new.

You seemed to have forgotten Toy Story Midway Mania added the same year that the Soap Opera thing stopped. Or what about Star Tours 2? Or the ill-fated American Idol attraction. Even though I don't like it, I'm sure some do.

Over at the MK, they have done some great refurb work and added the MMY show too. There was also the Nemo refurb at the Living Seas at Epcot. And SE received a facelift too. The film in Canada was completely redone too.

With respect to the TS cancellation policy. I personally like the fact that guests can't book two placed simultaneously or book things just in case. It makes it difficult for someone like me who really want to eat at a restaurant to book an ADR without doing it 6 months in advance. If this reduces the number of guests who book reservations just to have one "just in case", this will be a very customer friendly change in policy as it helps the rest of us.

In addition to the parks, they have added two new cruise ships for those of us who like to combine a Disney World vacation with a cruise. It's a great tie-in to the overall Disney Florida vacation experience IMO. Again, doesn't apply to everyone but it does to many. No attraction will please everyone.

In addition to FLE that you mentioned, they have refurbed many resorts and added queen size beds to most of the Moderates. The POR princess rooms look awesome for families with small kids. They are adding a new resort with family suites too for a more affordable on-site option for larger families. They have added BLT and rumors are that a new DVC at GF will start. And they did announce an AK expansion too, albiet somewhat controversial.

It's all perspective. If you are not a user of the adds/subtracts, they are meaningless. If something you hold dear is taken away, you'll be upset. If something that excites you is added, you're thrilled.

Again, no evidence that WDW has gone downhill. Just your perspective.



Finally, sorry but can't help but notice that both of the posters I quoted have difficulty with the space bar after sentences. Same person or just the same style?

 

[flicx]

Yes,Disney has gone downhill recently.No more daily concerts at the Flower and Garden festival,ESPN the weekend is now a thing of the past,Grad Nite is now a thing of the past,even though they haven't had it for several years they also removed the Super Soap Weekend.The Lights of Winter at Epcot were removed with no replacement,they also had a tree lighting show there that's also gone.Removing all the clubs at Pleasure Island and having them just sit empty for about a decade,finally they decide to do something and it stalls again.And then you have really customer friendly decisions like that new TS cancellation policy.I'm a huge Disney and theme park fan and Disney obviously is the big fat cash cow in the theme park world,people keep coming and they keep removing events,not expanding the parks the way a company that makes as much money as they do should be and I know people will still be coming,but if a day comes when attendance and profits begin to drop they can only blame themselves,the problem is that they know this and why the new Fantasyland area is being built,to make up for all the downgrades they know they've been putting out there.

Very well put.The last decade has been the slowest as far as new atrractions going in.The whole pleasure island thing is a mystery too!