Disney vs. RCCL

Doing research, I just found this long trip report for The Liberty of The Seas.

I thought it was interesting to see the partitions on the verandahs opened to make a large deck.

I know I would do that for sail away but the entire week? I like to wake up to the ocean or port, not to someone staring in my cabin or their behinds standing along the railing. :rotfl: Or having people seeing me in my morning face :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Lots of pics, pics of food, pics of navigators, loads of information, etc. :wizard:

http://www.jenscruisereviews.com/Liberty_Review_final1.pdf
 
Doing research, I just found this long trip report for The Liberty of The Seas.

I thought it was interesting to see the partitions on the verandahs opened to make a large deck.

I know I would do that for sail away but the entire week? I like to wake up to the ocean or port, not to someone staring in my cabin or their behinds standing along the railing. :rotfl: Or having people seeing me in my morning face :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Lots of pics, pics of food, pics of navigators, loads of information, etc. :wizard:

http://www.jenscruisereviews.com/Liberty_Review_final1.pdf


Just wanted to make sure you knew that they are only opened by request if you are friends or family. They would not do it if there were strangers next to you. But maybe you knew that? My friends and family have seen me at the beach for up to two weeks when all I do is slip into a swimsuit everyday, no makeup/hair, they are lucky I brush my teeth.

Monica

Monica
 
Doing research, I just found this long trip report for The Liberty of The Seas.

I thought it was interesting to see the partitions on the verandahs opened to make a large deck.
http://www.jenscruisereviews.com/Liberty_Review_final1.pdf


Monica is right. That is just upon request for connecting friends/family cabins. You ask your cabin attendant to open it with a key.

Believe me, I have NEVER asked for that. My cabin is my place to get away. That's all I need is to have the inlaws peering through the back door. :lmao:

So rest assured. This is not something they do for everyone.
 

are there any kid friendly ships that leave out of the west coast...allt he kid friendly ships seemed to be based on the east coast...any help would be gretaly appreciated...we can't afford a Disney cruise now, but would love to take the kids on a cruise....
 
Try Mariner. It's headed out of Port Canaveral to the west coast, permanently.
 
are there any kid friendly ships that leave out of the west coast...allt he kid friendly ships seemed to be based on the east coast...any help would be gretaly appreciated...we can't afford a Disney cruise now, but would love to take the kids on a cruise....

Mariner of the Seas is leaving Port Canaveral Jan. 4 and moving to the west coast by way of South America. It will do 7-night Mexican Riviera cruises out of Los Angeles beginning Feb. 22. Radiance of the Seas will be based in San Diego beginning Sept. 25 - doing 4 and 5-night Mexican Riviera cruises. It will do 9 and 10-night Mexican Riviera cruises beginning November 21, 2009. From mid-May to mid-September, Radiance will be in Alaska.
 
THANKS FOR YOUR REVIEW (DCL VS. RCCL)!!

We booked a DCL for Halloween 2010, after coming back from a 7 night DCL in October 2008. The vacation cost quite a bit (and hurt us a bit), which caused us to delay our 'annual' vacation, to every other year. So now, we'll do the DCL in 2010. Now I'm thinking since we already did DCL, we might want to try something else (and save some $$).
 
I have cruised with Disney 5x and it really was a tough decision to try RCCL but my kids were getting older and they just wanted a change. We love RCCL for many reasons as stated in the posters original review. I would love to be able to book on their new ship but I just know the prices will be outrageous and I think that will be what keeps us away. Still, that being said Disney is a great ship with alot to offer.
 
Wow, I just read all 22 pages of this. Amazed it didn't get heated at all! I read it, because 3 of my 4 previous cruises are RCCL, and I LOVED them! One Princess, good time as well. We have upcoming DCL this Oct. Have to say some of the reviews worry me. I am excited that the adult areas are enforced. I'm not that much of a foodie, so I don't even pay attention to those reviews. I know I won't go hungry! I am confused by the amount of folks who complain about paying for soda. I get that it's free on WDW. That's cool. But really, the $40 or whatever the soda package costs on RCCL doesn't even put a dent in the price difference. Don't want to start anything, there just is ALOT of people who bring that up. I do enjoy the larger ships, and pools, so that is something I worry about. My inlaws are die hard DCL fans, and did not enjoy Liberty of the Seas, so I wonder if I won't like Magic. I will love being on a cruise, don't get me wrong. I just want the amazing times I'm used to. I'm sure I will. AND, I am SO excited about the Fish Extender Exchange. That's something I can't do on RCCL;) The mind is just wandering...
 
the OP *my sister* is getting ready to sail RCCL again next month..Maybe she will come back and give another review then
 
Okay folks just got off a RCCL cruise on the Liberty on 4/25/09 here is my take we were a family of 7 with children 4-7-13-16. We had the Presidential Suite No Problems their 4 bedrooms 4 Baths Huge Verandah with Wet Bar & Jacuzzi (Blows Walt & Roy Suites away), only problem was that it was on deck 6 and always found items there in the morning & lost some of the privacy of being on the top deck!

We have taken 9 Disney cruises........so that should let you know HOW much we love sailing with The Mouse! However, If we were going to take a Disney cruise this summer......it was going to cost us $6700, w/o plane fare if we were going to do a 7 day. So, with a VERY heavy heart, I booked a 7 day on Royal Caribbean's Liberty of the Seas. I was expecting this to NOT be as good as a Disney cruise.........after all....who KNOWS customer service like Disney? There are positives to both cruise lines. RCCL could learn a few things from Disney, as could Disney from RCCL.
Embarkation: Both cruise lines do a great job of quickly getting you on the ship. We were eating lunch by 11:30.
Sorry We waited in a HUGE line for at least 1/2 of an hour and that was shortened as we found a crew member who saw that we were in a Suite & escorted us on board if not it would have been an hour in line AFTER CHECKING IN!

Topsiders/Windjammers: Personally, I liked Windjammers better. Better food, and the "flow" of people was better. Their breakfast before disembarking was 100% better than a Topsiders breakfast.
In General I agree as Windjammers is Huge with multiple types of stations however I still give kudos to DCL for their desserts which I believe to be superior

Wait staff: I have been on Disney cruises where I had top notch service.....and I've had cruises where it was so-so. For this cruise on RCCL, I had better than any service that I've had on Disney. That is not to say I could cruise next week, and get so-so service on RCCL. I think it is a gamble on both.
Sorry about equivalent to DCL waitstuff I have had better on DCL but not worse!

Food: I think RCCL has the upper hand on this one. We never even tried their specialty dining, since the food in the regular dining room was SO good. One night they had a warm chocolate dessert, that I LOVED. (GASP!.....Dare I say it was better than chocolate souffle???) Our waiter noticed that I ate two of them, and raved about them. He made a mental note of this, then talked to his supervisor, the head waiter. Two nights later, when there was nothing "chocolate" on the dessert menu, our waiter brought out 6 of these for us! What agreat surprise......HOWEVER.....on Disney, I've also eaten a Palo souffle in the dining room too as a nice surprise!
Food was a step above DCL have to agree specialty dining is Good as well, Chops really Good but you are paying $25 per person! You can also get chops Filet Mignon in the regular dining room for $15 well worth it beautiful piece of meet! Now that being said DCL still has better desserts (They could still be better) but I enjoyed them more!

Cruise Directors hands down to RCCL here! Allen was EVERYWHERE....in regular clothes, not a stiff officer's uniform. He was on deck, actually participating in the games. He also has a GREAT sense of humor, and makes some pretty funny comments along the way! I can't say enough GOOD things about the RCCL cruise director! Brent and Rachel (Disney) are good.......I just liked Allen better! !
I so no Aprreciable difference!
Private Island: Hands down......DISNEY! We went to Labadee, Haiti. While they try and make it very nice. Disney CREATED their island. RCCL, just rents this. The bar-b-que isn't nearly as good as Cookies. Also, getting all those people back on the ship was a nightmare! However, the water is just as pretty.
Mostly agree, Castaway Cay Sand & Water is better

Rooms: Disney has bigger rooms, for sure. However, with the lower price we were able to have 2 adjoining rooms, and that worked out nice. The rooms on The Liberty had enough storage/cubbie holes, that we never needed the over the door shoe holder that I brought. The closets also had lots of shelf room. While we were not in our rooms much, the flat screen tv was nice....and it is easy to check you onboard spending through your tv.
Hallways: Disney does a better job of keeping the halls clear. Room service trays and vacuums are a common sight in the halls, but that didn't impact the trip enough for me to discount RCCL again.
Presidential suite was cheaper & bigger than I ever paid for the Roy!
Staying in Touch: RCCL has these "dec" phones. They are like cell phones that you rent from them $25.00 a week for each one. You can call rooms or each other with them. No interferance from others, like walkies! Good Job, RCCL!
I like the pagers better smaller & simple!
Activites: My children are teenagers.....so having the flowrider and rock wall and ice rink were big pluses for us. While they LOVE a Disney cruise, they are not into the characters anymore. The H2O zone and the pools are, in my opinion, better on The Liberty. The adult pool is VERY nice, and Disney should maybe take note of how elegant it is for their next ship. Little kids seemed to never tire of playing in that H2O zone. The family pool was also very nice, and very large.....but then again, it is a larger ship. Until now, we were very satisfied with The Magic.
Pools & specialties are nice however while the pools were fresh water they were not heated! My wife hated this!
My teenager's though they had fun they told me that the counselors were very uninvolved & they were not impressed!

Adult areas: RCCL should take a lesson from Disney on this one. Disney is VERY good at keeping the adult areas off limits to kids. I think RCCL is too afraid to make someone mad. While it was never bad.....I think they should patrol it more.
Agree here however the family pool's were the place to be the adult pools almost looked like a retirement village!

Entertainment: Disney has GREAT shows, and so did The Liberty. I saw a wonderful cirque de solie (sp?) show that was fantastic! It was nice to see different comedians than on Disney. (I think if I had to see that talking tennis ball again, I would scream!) Adult shows DO mean adult. There were "f bombs" flying at the 12:15am comedy show. So really, I think both lines have good things to offer here. You just have to decide what is better for you and your family. If you have little ones....you probably wouldn't be at a 12:00 show anyways. By the way.......this ship is jumping 24 hours a day! When my husband and I went to bed at 2:30 the party was just starting!
Disney could use some new shows however I still think the quality of their shows is a notch above RCCL

Coffee: DH and I LOVE our coffee. And, I think Disney has the worst! RCCL offers Seattle's Best, and it is free.
Cannot disagree here!
Snack Food: Food on the Grand Promanade is outstanding! Pizza, sandwiches, pasta, salads...WONDERFUL! (Personally...the pizza in Serrentos way beats out Pluto's pizza!) The bakery in Cafe Promanade has some of the best cookies, cakes, brownies that I've ever had. All free! The snacks available all day in Windjammers also was very good. Nachos, fruit, lemonade, tea.......very good.
No snack service restaurants by the pools on RCCL! DUH! this was terrible you have to go down to deck 5 for their take out restaurants! YUK!
Childrens Clubs: I'm sorry I can't give you more on this. They do have clubs for different ages....and my kids enjoyed the teen clubs at night. I saw clubs for younger kids. However, I don't THINK they have anything for kids under 3 to do. They have a parent/tot class that you can take young babies to, but parents stay with them. I never saw anything for hourly babysitting....but that was because maybe I wasn't in need of it.
They were awful, they both smelled of Urine & usually had 2 Counselors for each age group who were more concerned with controlling the children then entertaining them! Both of my little ones prefer Disney!
Disembarking: Getting off the ship was a mess.......but that was not RCCL's fault, I think. Customs was VERY busy in Miami. I wonder if it will be easier on The Freedom of The Seas next summer when we take her out of Port Canaveral.
It was pretty easy walked off went to baggage carousel got bags went through customs oky doky!

All in all...........both are GREAT cruise lines. If my children were very young....Disney would be the better choice, if I could afford it. However, if your kids are older, and at least 52 inches (to do flowrider).....you will find your money well spent on The Liberty of the Seas. I still love Disney, and look forward to seeing what is on their new ships. However,we rebooked a 7 day western caribbean cruise on RCCL for next June. We got 2 adjoining cabins for 4 people for $5100. I came home and priced the same cruise on The Magic. I tried a cat 10 for 4 people (1 room) and they quoted me $7,061.00. As much as I love Disney, I can't justify the price.
No flames please........I was so sad not to be able to take the Magic this summer. I SO wanted someone's HONEST opinion of The Liberty before I booked. I hope this helps.
I cannot disagree with the price issue however I will say that pricing on the new Oasis Class ships is higher.

Also I believe that you do miss the Disney Magic I did!
 
barbmouse, I'm so happy I was able to help you feel better! I was SO stressed about switching cruise lines too. I just KNEW that I would never be happy on a ship if it didn't belong to Disney. You will just have to experience it for yourself......and I think you will also find, for a family like yours......Freedom class ships will serve you well. My children were 13 and 16 for this cruise. We're trying Freedom of the Seas next June.....and I don't regret that decision at all. We are not wealthy people, and sadly, Disney has out priced themselves for us.:sad2: I will always love a Disney cruise.....and would jump at one, if someone wanted to pay for it. But....for now, until my "scratch and win" card at the Florida Lotto pays off......RCCL is our new cruise line. (And.......maybe if I start saving now, I can afford to try the new ships in 20012!)

I have cruised with Disney 5x and it really was a tough decision to try RCCL but my kids were getting older and they just wanted a change. We love RCCL for many reasons as stated in the posters original review. I would love to be able to book on their new ship but I just know the prices will be outrageous and I think that will be what keeps us away. Still, that being said Disney is a great ship with alot to offer.

I have cruised with Disney 3 times and another one next year...then my speical birthday in 2011 and I want see Dream Disney Cruise but I think it will be expensive also only for 3/4 days....However, we had decided to book the Freedom of the Seas in April, will be sailing to Eastern from Cape Carnaval...
My heart is with Disney Cruise but we decide to give a try with RCCI as our kids will be 14 and 11 in 2011... I am praying that I don't regard it... As I want go back to WB Panama Cruise 2011 but my husband want something different...

I wonder what the Freedom of the Seas - Sailway Party Like? I know it won't be same with Disney but wonder what it like?

Scottishwee35
 
I wonder what the Freedom of the Seas - Sailway Party Like? I know it won't be same with Disney but wonder what it like?

Scottishwee35

The Sailaway on The Liberty isn't as "big" of a deal as it is on Disney.....and of course, there is not that beautiful horn sound that we all know and love........But they still make it a "party" atmosphere as you pull out of port. I can only assume it will be similar on The Freedom.

We are VERY lucky this week.....RCCL must be having a hard time filling the ship for the 6/21 cruise. In early April, they dropped the price about $200.00 off what I originally booked it for.:cheer2: This Monday, it dropped another $260.00 PER ROOM!!!!! :banana: Yesterday, on a whim......I checked again. It has dropped ANOTHER $140.00 per room. :banana::banana::banana: It just keeps getting better for me.......But, it is sad to be cruising without my buddy MICKEY.:sad2:
 
so I wonder if I won't like Magic. I will love being on a cruise, don't get me wrong. I just want the amazing times I'm used to. I'm sure I will. AND, I am SO excited about the Fish Extender Exchange. That's something I can't do on RCCL;) The mind is just wandering...


You will LOVE The Magic. We LOVED, I repeat, LOVED her! We just could not afford to sail during her "value" times anymore, now that our kids are older. If money had not been the issue......we may have never tried RCCL.
Remember........you are on vacation......on a CRUISE! Grab a sailaway drink.....and enjoy the party.:banana:
 
We have been on 4 different cruiselines and hands down Disney is still my favorite. 2 yrs ago we we on RCCL Mariner. We booked a grand suite. The room was not ready on time but was clean once it was ready. The concierge lounge was a really really small room with no windows and was always full. The most useful thing we received from that was tickets to the ice show.

We had to have had the worst cruise ship waiter in history. His tables were always eating dessert in an empty dining room because every other table was done and had left! You always ate your dinner thirsty because he never had time to get more than one soda. We requested another table but were told the ship was full!? So we were stuck with him. Most nights the butter dishes were empty and you could ask for butter but he rarely got around to it.

In the very first navigator on embarkation day there was information telling you about the express DISEMBARKATION service they offer. Who wants to think about disembarking on day one? It was mentioned in each navigator.

Their program for tweens was almost non-exsistent, they had events planned but if they had a minimum of 15 kids to participate and 14 kids were there at the designated time, they cancelled the event all together. It was no where near as organized as DCL.

Food quality was mediocre at best. The promonade area was beautiful but it seemed like there was a lot of wasted space there. They had a souvenier shop that sells tshirts and trinkets with ports on them where this cruise did not stop. I guess it is too much effort to change them out for different itineraries. There was one shop that only sold make-up. Maybe I'm wrong but I think most ppl bring their cosmetics with them, I'm sure there is the occasional forgotten item. Then there was a cheesy costume jewelry store and then a regular jewelry store. IMO, lots of floor space but very little content. They did have a nice liquor store. The sandwiches and pizza could be beat at subway or your local 7-11. Room service selection was very minimal. Buffet selections were decent but nothing special.

On the positive side, the ship itself was beautiful! The art around the ship was very nice. The pool area was bigger and thus better than DCL. The piano bar was great as were all the bartenders, and cruise director and his assistants. I did like the entertainment better but I think that is mostly because I have seen the shows on DCL. DS loved the rock climbing wall and the ice skating. As far as their tweens club type acivities, they have a great space for it, they just don't have the enthusiastic staff there to encourage participation.

Having said this, I am not saying that I would never cruise with RCCL again.
I would, but I think I would go with a more accurate set of expectations!:rolleyes1
-Donna
 
We have taken 9 Disney cruises........so that should let you know HOW much we love sailing with The Mouse! However, If we were going to take a Disney cruise this summer......it was going to cost us $6700, w/o plane fare if we were going to do a 7 day. So, with a VERY heavy heart, I booked a 7 day on Royal Caribbean's Liberty of the Seas. I was expecting this to NOT be as good as a Disney cruise.........after all....who KNOWS customer service like Disney? There are positives to both cruise lines. RCCL could learn a few things from Disney, as could Disney from RCCL.
Embarkation: Both cruise lines do a great job of quickly getting you on the ship. We were eating lunch by 11:30.
Topsiders/Windjammers: Personally, I liked Windjammers better. Better food, and the "flow" of people was better. Their breakfast before disembarking was 100% better than a Topsiders breakfast.
Wait staff: I have been on Disney cruises where I had top notch service.....and I've had cruises where it was so-so. For this cruise on RCCL, I had better than any service that I've had on Disney. That is not to say I could cruise next week, and get so-so service on RCCL. I think it is a gamble on both.
Food: I think RCCL has the upper hand on this one. We never even tried their specialty dining, since the food in the regular dining room was SO good. One night they had a warm chocolate dessert, that I LOVED. (GASP!.....Dare I say it was better than chocolate souffle???) Our waiter noticed that I ate two of them, and raved about them. He made a mental note of this, then talked to his supervisor, the head waiter. Two nights later, when there was nothing "chocolate" on the dessert menu, our waiter brought out 6 of these for us! What agreat surprise......HOWEVER.....on Disney, I've also eaten a Palo souffle in the dining room too as a nice surprise!
Cruise Directors hands down to RCCL here! Allen was EVERYWHERE....in regular clothes, not a stiff officer's uniform. He was on deck, actually participating in the games. He also has a GREAT sense of humor, and makes some pretty funny comments along the way! I can't say enough GOOD things about the RCCL cruise director! Brent and Rachel (Disney) are good.......I just liked Allen better!
Private Island: Hands down......DISNEY! We went to Labadee, Haiti. While they try and make it very nice. Disney CREATED their island. RCCL, just rents this. The bar-b-que isn't nearly as good as Cookies. Also, getting all those people back on the ship was a nightmare! However, the water is just as pretty.
Rooms: Disney has bigger rooms, for sure. However, with the lower price we were able to have 2 adjoining rooms, and that worked out nice. The rooms on The Liberty had enough storage/cubbie holes, that we never needed the over the door shoe holder that I brought. The closets also had lots of shelf room. While we were not in our rooms much, the flat screen tv was nice....and it is easy to check you onboard spending through your tv.
Hallways: Disney does a better job of keeping the halls clear. Room service trays and vacuums are a common sight in the halls, but that didn't impact the trip enough for me to discount RCCL again.
Staying in Touch: RCCL has these "dec" phones. They are like cell phones that you rent from them $25.00 a week for each one. You can call rooms or each other with them. No interferance from others, like walkies! Good Job, RCCL!
Activites: My children are teenagers.....so having the flowrider and rock wall and ice rink were big pluses for us. While they LOVE a Disney cruise, they are not into the characters anymore. The H2O zone and the pools are, in my opinion, better on The Liberty. The adult pool is VERY nice, and Disney should maybe take note of how elegant it is for their next ship. Little kids seemed to never tire of playing in that H2O zone. The family pool was also very nice, and very large.....but then again, it is a larger ship. Until now, we were very satisfied with The Magic.
Adult areas: RCCL should take a lesson from Disney on this one. Disney is VERY good at keeping the adult areas off limits to kids. I think RCCL is too afraid to make someone mad. While it was never bad.....I think they should patrol it more.
Entertainment: Disney has GREAT shows, and so did The Liberty. I saw a wonderful cirque de solie (sp?) show that was fantastic! It was nice to see different comedians than on Disney. (I think if I had to see that talking tennis ball again, I would scream!) Adult shows DO mean adult. There were "f bombs" flying at the 12:15am comedy show. So really, I think both lines have good things to offer here. You just have to decide what is better for you and your family. If you have little ones....you probably wouldn't be at a 12:00 show anyways. By the way.......this ship is jumping 24 hours a day! When my husband and I went to bed at 2:30 the party was just starting!
Coffee: DH and I LOVE our coffee. And, I think Disney has the worst! RCCL offers Seattle's Best, and it is free.
Snack Food: Food on the Grand Promanade is outstanding! Pizza, sandwiches, pasta, salads...WONDERFUL! (Personally...the pizza in Serrentos way beats out Pluto's pizza!) The bakery in Cafe Promanade has some of the best cookies, cakes, brownies that I've ever had. All free! The snacks available all day in Windjammers also was very good. Nachos, fruit, lemonade, tea.......very good.
Childrens Clubs: I'm sorry I can't give you more on this. They do have clubs for different ages....and my kids enjoyed the teen clubs at night. I saw clubs for younger kids. However, I don't THINK they have anything for kids under 3 to do. They have a parent/tot class that you can take young babies to, but parents stay with them. I never saw anything for hourly babysitting....but that was because maybe I wasn't in need of it.
Disembarking: Getting off the ship was a mess.......but that was not RCCL's fault, I think. Customs was VERY busy in Miami. I wonder if it will be easier on The Freedom of The Seas next summer when we take her out of Port Canaveral.
All in all...........both are GREAT cruise lines. If my children were very young....Disney would be the better choice, if I could afford it. However, if your kids are older, and at least 52 inches (to do flowrider).....you will find your money well spent on The Liberty of the Seas. I still love Disney, and look forward to seeing what is on their new ships. However,we rebooked a 7 day western caribbean cruise on RCCL for next June. We got 2 adjoining cabins for 4 people for $5100. I came home and priced the same cruise on The Magic. I tried a cat 10 for 4 people (1 room) and they quoted me $7,061.00. As much as I love Disney, I can't justify the price.
No flames please........I was so sad not to be able to take the Magic this summer. I SO wanted someone's HONEST opinion of The Liberty before I booked. I hope this helps.


I TOTALLY agree with your accessment. Disney is not the best anymore. I love Disney, but there are much better cruises available at a better price. I love RCCL and so did my 18 year old daughter. I've also sailed on the new Celebrity Solstice and the food service, entertainment , cabins and price has Disney beat too...Just paid 861.00 per person for a 7 night eastern in a balconey cabin.....It was AWESOME.....:goodvibes I think Disney will soon price themselves out of the market when other try these ships........
 
The Sailaway on The Liberty isn't as "big" of a deal as it is on Disney.....and of course, there is not that beautiful horn sound that we all know and love........But they still make it a "party" atmosphere as you pull out of port. I can only assume it will be similar on The Freedom.

We are VERY lucky this week.....RCCL must be having a hard time filling the ship for the 6/21 cruise. In early April, they dropped the price about $200.00 off what I originally booked it for.:cheer2: This Monday, it dropped another $260.00 PER ROOM!!!!! :banana: Yesterday, on a whim......I checked again. It has dropped ANOTHER $140.00 per room. :banana::banana::banana: It just keeps getting better for me.......But, it is sad to be cruising without my buddy MICKEY.:sad2:

If you booked early then the price dropped and you will get refund money back, just like you mentioned that 260.00 then 140.00, are they refund you?

because we booked it for 2011 as plenty time ahead for it and wonder if we get refund if the price go down or not?

thanks for your comment

Scottishwee35
 

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