Disney Theme Parks: Today vs. Yesterday

Originally posted by crusader
This sounds subjective in that an expectation is not necessarily the same for every person.
There are basically two types of quality. The first is determined by the maker, producer of that item. They set a stated goal for quality goal and try to match that goal.. The second quality type is determined by the consumer and you are correct it is completely subjective as not all people are looking for the same quality or area that posses quality for an item.
 
I can name quite a few electronics items that have gone down in price while making jumps ahead in both quality and technology.

Absolutely. This is the one industry which you can say that about. So Disney should be able to afford the absolute best in this regard without charging the consumer. Unless of course they are trying to break new ground and need to develop something innovative and proprietary - which in the tech industry usually means the product will be extremely expensive to initially develop.
 
Europa -

I think you've said it. The producer of the product has a standard of excellence which they continually strive to achieve and pass along to the consumer. The expectation is principally their own -not mine or yours.

We are the benefactors and if something is truly made superior we will feel it.

The problem comes in with trying to hold the line on what you charge in a competitive inflationary environment. How much is the maximum a guest will be willing to pay for the absolute best a vacation like Disneyworld can provide?
 
Originally posted by crusader
So Disney should be able to afford the absolute best in this regard without charging the consumer. Unless of course they are trying to break new ground and need to develop something innovative and proprietary - which in the tech industry usually means the product will be extremely expensive to initially develop.

I never said the best. I said it should be entertaining to both adults and children. If the best is required, they better belly up to the bar and get out the checkbook.

I don't think that is the case here though. There is not enough being done with the tech they already have or that already exists. Why spend money on a new type of car if the one you are driving is ok but needs a paintjob and some grease? Fix up the current car or redesign the current car to meet current expectations.

I don't think stuff that makes attractions needs to be invented. The current Disney thinking has Edison's "inspiration" quote reversed. They are thinking too much about how to squeeze out every penny and working too little to make guest's happy.

Bring back the 99% perspiration and watch the people start returning in droves. They can make up some of the cost's in volume once the crowds return :)

JC
 

Or how about when you set your goals (or level of quality) too low. The consumer has a voice, but is that what we are actually talking about? Has WDW lowered it's level of acceptable quility? I think that I know what some of you are going to say, here... But the question is, what Walt have done? Would he have continued to try to a superior product no matter the cost? Would he allow park costs to escalate as high as they have? Would Walt have wanted a Four-Level hotel system on his property? Aren't the value reosrts, below his standard? How about the moderates? It goes beyond attractions, it involves all of WDW. I am not sure that it would have been as easy today, to do what he did back then.
 
I can't really figure out where this thread is going, but a few comments:

Quality: Are you saying that everything Walt did was first-quality? They had budget limitations back when DL first opened--not everything was the best that money could buy.

Expectations: Since DL was the first of its kind, it almost automatically exceeded expectations--nobody really knew what to expect. Now, many folks have been to decent regional parks, or to Universal, or to the simulator ride at the mall, or they play very sophisticated video games, or watch movies with great special effects, so it's much harder to exceed expectations. Even so, many who go to WDW for the first time are just blown away.

Competition: Walt had the advantage with DL that there wasn't anything like it. Now there is much more competition, not only from other theme parks, but other travel/resort destinations, and other entertainment options. There's always going to be some place with a better hotel, or a fantastic new ride, or a mind-blowing show.
 
Mr. Cricket...Sorry about the porno!

FriendsofEeyore,
Thats the million dollar question! My opinion of course, is that Walt would have done none of it. He would have deveoped the real E.P.C.O.T. and we'd not be having this discussion as the Disney company would be a far different animal...

The real conjecture is what would Walt do if he were here and in charge the way it is now? Whew! In other words, thawed tomorrow and at the helm by Christmas...

crusader, I agree with your thoughts, but there's always room for discussion as this is all hypothetical, right? And I don't want to be accused of demeaning any of your opinions.;)

But the quality vs. cost concept gets dicy...Because as I said, if WDW were to convert their deluxes into REAL deluxes, Ritz-Carlton deluxes...Hotels people would rave about. Service done in true Disney style, would there really be a large enough, weatlthy demographic to support them? Personally, I think maybe one could survive, but then I can't believe Disney hasn't already considered the issue and passed on it...

Elsewhere, do you proponents of all quality all the time really suggest that this be done at current gate rates? If so, how is it feasible? If not, how much of a premium (over the competetion) could Disney ever hope to get away with?

Dancing Bear, I have very little complaint with any of those items...I agree.
 
Thank's for the verbatim quote from the Walt Disney interview with the canadian tv outlet. I watch and rewatch that interview on tape, and as far as I'm concerned, you hit the nail on the head as far as what Walt wanted, parents doing things WITH thier kids, not just watching them!
 
This sounds subjective in that an expectation is not necessarily the same for every person.
As has always been the case. The specifics of what will be successful in entertainment IS very subjective.

I never said don't offer it. I said they'd lose their shirts if they tried to pass the costs off to the consumer and they basically can't afford it otherwise.
Very short-sighted thinking.

In general terms, what's more "costly", spending $100 million on something the public rejects, or $150 million (or even $200 million) on something they embrace for decades to come?

The costs for something like PotC back in the mid-late 60's were enourmous. Certainly a decent return could have been had for 1/2 the price. Yet, nearly 35 years later, it appears a sound investment decision was made... (Especially when one considers that without PotC:The Ride, there would be no PotC:The Movie... Do you think that 30 years from now, "Primeval Whirl: Curse of the Brown Dung" will be a hit?)

These are the same choices Walt faced. Sure, the specifics of what the public wants, and the technologies available have changed, but the basic laws of business have not changed.

Its not that Disney, or anyone else, cannot survive without a Walt-like strategy. Its just that, by definition, they can't become exceptional by doing what everybody else does. Average is all well and good, but its not why we are posting on a Disney site in the first place.


Mr. Pirate, I have no problem with the way you choose to view the goings-on in and around Disney. It is, after all, only a company, and there is certainly no moral duty to acknowledge that company's shortcomings.

But really, how you can take this:

"The idea for [Disneyland] came about when my two daughters were very young and Saturday was always Daddy's day with the two daughters. So we'd start out and try to go someplace, you know, different things, and I'd take them to the merry-go-round and took them different places and as I'd sit while they rode the merry-go-round and did all these things--sit on a bench, you know, eating peanuts--I felt that there should be something built where the parents and the children could have fun together. So that's how Disneyland started."

...and translate it into this:

when in actuality he probably was more likely to have meant that the attractions were built for the entertainment and satisfaction of the kids while the surroundings were built for the adults.

...is just too much.

What evidence have you come across to lead you to believe this? Evidence that is more compelling than the fact that many of DL's attractions WERE appealling to adults, and more compelling than the direct quote from Walt himself?
 
Matt, I've already explained that IMO that quote is what it is (a single and specific quote) and if you choose not to remember any of the other things he said, then this quote will do just fine...But if you try and remember different things he said throughout his life (even look on a different page in that book), you'll find he also took great exception to the dirtiness and safety issues of the parks of the day (very great exception, IMO) - Same topic, different avenue...

It doesn't take a person of great thought to imagine that perhaps some of Walt's quotes were said with quotes in mind...It certainly sounds better to state that DL was built because "I felt there should be a place where children and parents can have fun together"...Rather than something like "I'm always uncomfortable with my girls at these parks thery're so seedy and dirty" (my intepretation - not a direct quote)...He was a genius and a good businessman, do you not think he played the game?

But this is semantics and personal interpretation, IMO. The arguments crusader, Crickett, Europa & others brought forth is more what I had in mind...
 
But if you try and remember different things he said throughout his life (even look on a different page in that book), you'll find he also took great exception to the dirtiness and safety issues of the parks of the day (very great exception, IMO)
I'm not disputing that, but there is also no mutual exclusivity between clean/safe and family attractions.

Providing things the father could do with the kids was not the ONLY differentiating factor he wanted, its just clear it was ONE of them.

He was a genius and a good businessman, do you not think he played the game?
Sure... but in this case the evidence, DL, is contrary to your theory. Many of the attractions clearly had a goal of entertaining the entire family.

If the quote was merely a lie, the park would bear it out... but it doesn't.
 
Pirate if that were truly the case I think you would see a lot more places to sit. Where are the parents supposed to watch their kids when they go on HM,POTC, Jungle Cruise,SP Mr. Toads Wild Ride, Small World? No...make no mistake Walt wanted a place for the Parents and Kids to ride together. Not one watching the other.
 
Peter and Crusader,

Now, I’ve got to tell you both something. And it ain’t gonna sound none too pretty, but please believe me; I say it with the utmost love and respect. Like a long time friend telling you that you might want to increase your deodorant usage. So, don’t get all crazy on me. I’m just trying to help… But… Well…

You just don’t “Get it”!!

Let me illustrate.

Peter you said:
Sure Disney can introduce a new "E" ticket each year. They can enter the fickle coaster wars, they can offer 5-star Ritz-Carlton service at their hotels but at what price?
None of these things are necessarily “Disney”. NONE!!! It could be, but the way you wrote it, it sounds as though these things are examples of “Definitive Disney”. They are NOT!! In fact the “5-star Ritz-Carlton” and the ‘fickle coaster wars” are really good examples of the Universal philosophy and as such are diametrically opposed to the Walt ideal! Surely you can see this, can’t you?
The masses will not be able to stay at the deluxe with the deluxe price and is there really a potential market (demographic) out there of people who can afford 350-500 per night rooms at Disney?
Why would they need to cost that much? It doesn’t even cost that much for the Poly today. Which means if the Disney philosophy was truly adhered to, the price would be substantially less? And I think most will agree that the Poly is a classic, if not definitive, Disney resort.

Ok two in a row:
Can Disney afford to raise their ticket prices maybe 25-30% above the competition because of the yearly "E" ticket and continual upgrades?
But this brings me back to my main question, will pure quality of product ensure success today (1955 vs 2003) while still being able to maintain any profit margins at all?
What nonsense!!! How much PROFIT would the company have if it did not have to prop up ABC, finance failed internet ventures and donate three quarters of a BILLION dollars to Ei$ner’s personal bank account? You can’t seriously suggest that the parks couldn’t exceed expectations of damned near everyone, keep prices and costs well within the historical philosophies AND still turn a tidy little (read:HUGE) profit. You KNOW it could if the company wasn’t so badly bumbled for the past eighteen years!!

Crusader:
If Disney were to concentrate its' efforts on providing only the best Grade A quality, they'd have to charge far more than the market would bear for a theme park vacation. They'd lose their shirts. And this doesn't even begin to take into consideration the overhead.
I believe you are seriously mistaken. See above.

Back to Peter:
Elsewhere, do you proponents of all quality all the time really suggest that this be done at current gate rates? If so, how is it feasible?
Easy. Dump ABC. Dump Ei$ner. Dump… Well, see above!!


I know it’s a stupid question but, now do you “Get it”?
 
"My theory" isn't all inclusive...Sure Walt wanted to give everyone all he could, but from what I've read it was the children that he was most concerned about. Remember at that time, it was much more common for a parent to be passive in daily interaction...
 
I don't understand a lot of this thread. And that from both sides.

Baron, you mention "fickle coaster wars" and then call Universal on this. Universal has two coasters (three if you count both sides of Dueling Dragons) so it isn't much of a war then. :) The you mention the “5-star Ritz-Carlton” as being a Universal philosophy. I don't get that one either. :confused: Forgive me, I'm certainly in your car but could you clarify these points a little?

As for Walt's philosophies when he built Disneyland as brought up by Mr Pirate, I think that he wanted BOTH a clean place to visit and a place for kids and adults to enjoy together. I think that his comments bear that out. Mr Pirate, how does one being true necessarily exclude the other? :confused:
 
Landbaron. I get it, but...
None of these things are necessarily Disney.
I agree, but in my arguments I'm discussing things with folks who all may not share your one demensional view and very often these things are included as things Disney should aspire to. I agree that it seems more Universal...
It doesn't even cost that much to stay at the Poly today...
You mean todays Poly meets the standard you would accept???? I am stunned!
What nonesense!
Perhaps, but the last time I checked Disney DID own ABC and all of the other clunkers so speculating on their business model without them in the fold seems rather...Whimsical...
Easy. Dump ABC! Dump Eisner!
I don't disagree and for all of you paying attention you should be able to see that this (dumping of ABC) is a change in my opinion...But still your're in Fantasyland I'm afraid so we should stick to discussing what can really take place, don't you think???
 
Sure Walt wanted to give everyone all he could...
Well, right here we have the biggest difference between Disney's theme parks of yesterday and today. Until that philosophy, or something vaguely resembling it, re-appears on the Disney radar screen, most of the rest really won't matter all that much.

You see, you can say only 40% of his focus, or 10%, whatever, was on providing "family-inclusive" attractions. The practical point is, however, that it was a significant enough part of his focus to show up in the design and implemenation of his park and attractions. I certainly disagree with your assessment of how low this was on his priority list, but the fact is, it showed up in his work, which is really all that matters.

Remember at that time, it was much more common for a parent to be passive in daily interaction...
Hmmm, interesting point, if true (almost definitely true when looking at fathers).

If there really has been a shift to more active involvement from parents, one would think there would be an even greater opportunity for "something built where the parents and the children could have fun together.", as opposed to more market-segmented rides like spinners and coasters...
 
I have fallen and I can't get up...Nor can I delete the posts I didn't know I was posting!

Sorry guys.:o
 












Receive up to $1,000 in Onboard Credit and a Gift Basket!
That’s right — when you book your Disney Cruise with Dreams Unlimited Travel, you’ll receive incredible shipboard credits to spend during your vacation!
CLICK HERE






DIS Facebook DIS youtube DIS Instagram DIS Pinterest DIS Tiktok DIS Twitter DIS Bluesky

Back
Top Bottom