Debate: Free speech a two-way street in school?

[treesinger]

Originally posted by poohandwendy
I, personally, didn't know we were discussing gays rights to expressing themselves as a whole. I was debating the role of public schools in sanctioning specific group 'days'.

I think everyone has the right to be themselves. I just don't think public schools should be in the business of teaching morals or belief based issues.

And to turn the "private school" argument around...

If you want a school to have gay appreciation day without confrontation, and any other such day that suits your life, then go to a PRIVATE institution that promotes those beliefs. After all, if Christians have to go to one to avoid being indoctrinated, so should those on the other side of the fence if they want their agenda promoted.

 

[minniepumpernickel]

Originally posted by treesinger
AGAIN, his motivation, religion or nuttiness has nothing to do with his RIGHT to make his point of view known if another is FORCED upon him by a PUBLIC school. Now, if he just did this out of the blue for no reason, then he should be branded a nuisance and suspended if necessary. But the school brought this on itself because of their gay appreciation day. Had they NOT had gay appreciation day, they would have the high ground to say, "We didn't invite this hate speech and he's being suspended."

Like others have said before, what if this was Martin Luther King day, or Hannukah? Why is it okay to acknowledge these days, but not Gay Days?

I think it's important to look at the motivation behind why a student does something. Obviously the school did. We can't have other members of society running around condemning people because they are worried about others position in the after life. It's good that they catch it early. What if he suffered from some type of schizophrenia, or delusional behaviour? Wouldn't it be good to catch it early?

 

[treesinger]

Originally posted by cardaway
I only went there to make my point. Certainly you have seen the number of posts here making the argument that the school should have never put students in this position. Well my position is that IT IS necessary as long as there is the feeling by many that they must stay in some kind of virtual closet because their 'choice' is immoral and sons and daughters shouldn't be exposed to it.

IMO public school is going to include some things you find immoral since there are so many different, yet legit, sets of morals in our diverse public society (I can assure you there are things I wouldn't want my kids learning from folks thinking they are being moral). Deal with it or pay for private school.

The right way to deal with it is to treat gays the same as everyone else. The right way is to say that they are no different AS HUMAN BEINGS than anyone else. But calling attention to them because of their sexuality singles them out as minorities rather than including them as just other members of the student body.

 

[treesinger]

Originally posted by poohandwendy
I disagree with that. I don't think it is the public schools responsibility or authority to get involved with discussing or promoting what behavior is moral. Of course, they should do whatever possible to make sure the school environment is conductive to learning. Noone has said that anyone needs to stay in any closet. I am talking about the SCHOOLs part in making the determination that a belief is right. It is not their role. That is the role of parents. Regardless of the group/belief. Actually, that is exactly what private school is for, not public school. Public school should cater to the fact that they have many types of students, from all backgrounds. This is why they do not teach that Jesus Christ was savior, because it does nnot reflect the entire student populations beliefs. If you want your children to be taught beliefs, you send them to private schools. PSs should not be in the business of taking a favorable position based on ANY beliefs or lifestyle. Whether it be a popular belief or unpopular. Mine or yours or theirs.

This isn't about gays for me, it is about the role of public schools. I don't want them 'appreciating' any of my morals or beliefs or yours. They can avoid anyone feeling they need to stay in a virtual closet by making sure the kids treat eachother with respect, period. They don't have to go any further than that.

And I hearty ITA goes out to ya!

 

[minniepumpernickel]

Originally posted by treesinger
The right way to deal with it is to treat gays the same as everyone else. The right way is to say that they are no different AS HUMAN BEINGS than anyone else. But calling attention to them because of their sexuality singles them out as minorities rather than including them as just other members of the student body.

If we lived in a perfect society, I would agree with you. Sometimes you have to teach kids that it is okay that this person is different to promote acceptance.

 

[treesinger]

Originally posted by minniepumpernickel
If you believe that public school should only be about reading, writing...etc ., do you also feel that the pledge is inappropriate too? The pledge of allegiance deviates from those three elements that you mentioned. My point is that public school does touch on subjects that may cross some moral boundaries. What about classes like philosophy?

I want to answer this, but in another thread. I don't want this thread to get too far off track. Any takers?

 

[minniepumpernickel]

Originally posted by treesinger
I want to answer this, but in another thread. I don't want this thread to get too far off track. Any takers?

Well, we are on the CB now, so we can go off track!

I do respect your opinion, and enjoy hearing your views.

 

[jrydberg]

Like others have said before, what if this was Martin Luther King day, or Hannukah? Why is it okay to acknowledge these days, but not Gay Days?

Well, first off, Martin Luther King day is generally a holiday, so the kids aren't at school Hannukah, in my experience, is not celebrated at school.

That aside, Martin Luther King was a man who had a significant effect on the history of this nation. Seems relevant to at least discuss in history class. I never had any discussions in school about Hannukah, nor would it have been appropriate since it did not pertain to any of the subject matter.

We can't have other members of society running around condemning people because they are worried about others position in the after life.

Why not? If they truly believe that, then why aren't they entitled to express their opinion? What are you afraid of?

 

[treesinger]

Originally posted by minniepumpernickel
Like others have said before, what if this was Martin Luther King day, or Hannukah? Why is it okay to acknowledge these days, but not Gay Days?

I think it's important to look at the motivation behind why a student does something. Obviously the school did. We can't have other members of society running around condemning people because they are worried about others position in the after life. It's good that they catch it early. What if he suffered from some type of schizophrenia, or delusional behaviour? Wouldn't it be good to catch it early?

MLK preached tolerance for EVERYONE. Though he was an advocate for Blacks, he was also an advocate for all people everywhere in the world to tolerate one another. He was all inclusive and therefore leaves nothing up for debate as to WHO should be tolerated.

Holidays in public schools have already taken the secular turn. Remember Christmas vacation? Winter break now. Easter vacation? Spring break. IMO, that's the way it SHOULD be. Schools shouldn't be promoting religious holidays any more than they should be promoting gays.

Breaks usually revolve around Christian holidays because Christinaity is the majority religion in the country AND...note the AND... people with NO religious affilliation tend to celebrate Christmas (Santa Claus, no Jesus) and Easter (Easter bunny, no Jesus). It's more about accomodating family plans and trips than it is about accomodating religious observation.

 

[treesinger]

Originally posted by minniepumpernickel
If we lived in a perfect society, I would agree with you. Sometimes you have to teach kids that it is okay that this person is different to promote acceptance.

And now we've come full circle. I believe that is the parent's job, not the schools.

 

[treesinger]

Originally posted by minniepumpernickel
Well, we are on the CB now, so we can go off track!

I do respect your opinion, and enjoy hearing your views.

Thanks! You as well! And, a little OT, but have you noticed that the debates have been a bit more civilized since the move?

 

[minniepumpernickel]

Originally posted by jrydberg
Well, first off, Martin Luther King day is generally a holiday, so the kids aren't at school Hannukah, in my experience, is not celebrated at school.

That aside, Martin Luther King was a man who had a significant effect on the history of this nation. Seems relevant to at least discuss in history class. I never had any discussions in school about Hannukah, nor would it have been appropriate since it did not pertain to any of the subject matter.



Why not? If they truly believe that, then why aren't they entitled to express their opinion? What are you afraid of?

You answered very well. I thought that we touched on Hannukah and the holidays in public school? We didn't really celebrate them, but we got a brief overview of what each was about. Do they do that now with the kids in school today? Perhaps not.

If we look back at history, think how in the past it must have been hard for some people to accept what MLK had done. Think of all the protests going on during that time period. Look at poor Rosa Parks. If we hadn't pushed to mainstream civil rights issues, would we be where we are today?

I'm never afraid of opinions, but some types of fanaticism scare me. Wouldn't it be better if homosexuality became more mainstream, and better understood? Isn't knowledge, power after all?

 

[jrydberg]

First off, this has been a very interesting discussion. Appreciate all the well thought out responses.

Wouldn't it be better if homosexuality became more mainstream, and better understood?

I think the fundamental problem here is that there is no objective truth here. Just differing viewpoints on it. My viewpoint is irrelevant to this discussion.

Wanting homosexuality to become more mainstream presupposes one approves of that lifestyle. I can understand how some would not approve and would not want their kids to be "bullied" into approving of it. It is a political agenda and that's why I think it doesn't belong in the schools.

One can argue the merits of which side of the debate makes more sense, but IMO we should be teaching our kids to make their own decisions, regardless of what everyone else thinks. After all, isn't the herd mentality what denied blacks their rights for so many years?

I just think it is crucial to a liberal democracy to allow all viewpoints to be heard, no matter how much they offend someone.

 

[Pyg Me]

Originally posted by minniepumpernickel
If you believe that public school should only be about reading, writing...etc ., do you also feel that the pledge is inappropriate too? The pledge of allegiance deviates from those three elements that you mentioned. My point is that public school does touch on subjects that may cross some moral boundaries. What about classes like philosophy?

I fail to see your correlation. The Pledge of Allegience is as important as learning the Bill of Rights, the Preamble, and the Constitution.

I dont think it casts moral judgments. But if you see fit for your child not to recite the Pledge of Allegience, more power to you.

 

[minniepumpernickel]

Originally posted by jrydberg
First off, this has been a very interesting discussion. Appreciate all the well thought out responses.



I think the fundamental problem here is that there is no objective truth here. Just differing viewpoints on it. My viewpoint is irrelevant to this discussion.

Wanting homosexuality to become more mainstream presupposes one approves of that lifestyle. I can understand how some would not approve and would not want their kids to be "bullied" into approving of it. It is a political agenda and that's why I think it doesn't belong in the schools.

One can argue the merits of which side of the debate makes more sense, but IMO we should be teaching our kids to make their own decisions, regardless of what everyone else thinks. After all, isn't the herd mentality what denied blacks their rights for so many years?

I just think it is crucial to a liberal democracy to allow all viewpoints to be heard, no matter how much they offend someone.

One place where you and I differ is that you see homosexuality only as a political agenda. If I am reading you correctly, are you saying that you feel that the school only wants to teach it to promote the liberal agenda? I was trying to look at things on a more personal, human level. Imagine if a child in your children's school had a gay parent. Wouldn't it be nice to see everyone being nice to, and accepting of this child?

 

[minniepumpernickel]

Originally posted by Pyg Me
I fail to see your correlation. The Pledge of Allegience is as important as learning the Bill of Rights, the Preamble, and the Constitution.

I dont think it casts moral judgments. But if you see fit for your child not to recite the Pledge of Allegience, more power to you.

Oh, I have no kids. if I did, I would have no objection to them reciting the pledge. Some people do have objections to it, though.

I was just trying to point out that some things are learned, and done in public schools that not everyone agrees on.

 

[jrydberg]

A couple points to clarify -- I don't see *being* homosexual as a political agenda. I see promoting homosexuality as a political agenda. Promoting tolerance of a lifestyle, IMO, is not the same thing as having a day to honor a lifestyle -- that becomes promoting a political agenda, in my view. And if the school goes that far, they'd better be prepared to hear the other side. Instead, what the school seems to be teaching is that one should be tolerant of certain views, but not others.

Don't get me wrong... when it comes to actions, the school had better make sure that no students are harassed, intimidated or otherwise bullied over any such thing. But, in my view, school is all about learning to make decisions for oneself. How can one make informed decisions if the school only allows certain points of view?

I guess my basic point is why suppress ideas? If it's a loonie idea, it will be seen as such. Once you start suppressing some and allowing others you are making an inherently political decision. Schools ought not be making those sorts of decisions.