Deal gone sour!

[TexasErin]

This is probably not the best place to post this, but I thought I'd put it here since there is always a wealth of knowledge on the community board.
A few months ago, I rented points from another DISER for a stay at VWL in May. She wanted 50% up front through Paypal, so I used my cc to pay for it on there.
Fast forward a couple of months later to 12/27/05 and she sent me a PM telling me she was sorry that she would have to cancel our ressie, but she was selling her DVC to afford her daughter's college. She told me she would refund my money.
I got my cc statement a couple of days ago, and SURPRISE, no refund!!! I called her at work yesterday since I had her work number from an old e-mail. She told me, "Oh, I forgot to refund it." Then she said, "No. I didn't forget. Its just been real crazy around here. But I'll do it tonight." I have checked Paypal about every 10.5 seconds and still no refund tonight.
I'm really starting to get worried (AND ANGRY) that she hasn't refunded my money. She wanted the deposit ASAP (which I did). And almost a month later and a phone call to her and still no refund.
I have since rented points through someone else and did get a contract this time and feel like everything is going smoothly. Although because of this woman who won't refund my money, I don't know that I'll ever rent points again.
Should I pester this woman? Should I file a dispute with Paypal? Should I file a dispute with the CC I used? I just don't know what to do!!!
Any suggestions???

 

[mkutch]

I would email her or call her again and tell her that you are going to file a dispute with paypal concerning your refund. If she doesn't respond by tomorrow go ahead and file.

 

[drgnfly30]

Should I file a dispute with Paypal? Should I file a dispute with the CC I used? I just don't know what to do!!!
Any suggestions???

I'd do both & fast... if the person is ultimately honest no harm no foul but if not there are timeframes that complaints must be lodged when credit cards are involved.

 

[disneynutt1225]

I would absolutely file a dispute with both Paypal and CC company. Better to cover your bases! And frankly, I would call the woman and tell her you've disputed it with Paypal and your CC. That might make her give you your refund even quicker than anything else.

 

[barkley]

since technicaly (legaly) those of us who own dvc are not allowed to rent points out (receive any financial consideration for the use of points by persons other than ourselves) i think it would be difficult to pursue. the law is pretty clear cut that if 2 persons are engaging in illegal activity neither can recoup or profit from the failure of the "scheme". if the person who rented the points can show that you rented via the dis or another venue that posts the rules/regulations/potential risks and they did not fail to disclose-you may not have much of a legal standing.

i know it happens, i've rented out-i've rented. but when it comes down to it-the laws governing the dis owner's contracts will supercede any private contract, so while the majority of rentals are honest and well handled there is always the risk of a financial loss.

 

[georgina]

Stories like yours are the reason I will not trust someone enough to rent points. I won't even buy on ebay! I just can't bring myself to trust someone online.

 

[MagicKingdom05]

georgina,

I agree. Unless it's someone I know really well like a friend, I won't do it either.

 

[jfulcer]

I don't think that Paypal is going to do anything. They have buyer protection service for Ebay purchases, but outside of that there's not much besides an agreement between you and her.

You SHOULD be able to persue it with your Credit Card company though, since technically it's a goods/services type thing.

The other poster is right though, technically DVC says you cannot rent your points out but people still do it. DVC will not be able to help you here either.

You also have to make sure you do NOT put that person's name in a message. The FAQ on the Rent board says you cannot do this so that will get your thread pulled in a second.

I hope you get your refund!

 

[Alicnwondrln]

imim so sorry
good luck
i rented points from a member here named mark
he was wonderful
no issues
once again im so sorry

 

[simpilotswife]

since technicaly (legaly) those of us who own dvc are not allowed to rent points out (receive any financial consideration for the use of points by persons other than ourselves) i think it would be difficult to pursue. the law is pretty clear cut that if 2 persons are engaging in illegal activity neither can recoup or profit from the failure of the "scheme". if the person who rented the points can show that you rented via the dis or another venue that posts the rules/regulations/potential risks and they did not fail to disclose-you may not have much of a legal standing.

i know it happens, i've rented out-i've rented. but when it comes down to it-the laws governing the dis owner's contracts will supercede any private contract, so while the majority of rentals are honest and well handled there is always the risk of a financial loss.

Your information is incorrect. If there were ANY language in our contracts that said that renting is prohibited there are a slew of disgruntled owners on the DIS DVC board (including myself) who would be more than happy to report one or two people for their rental activities.

You cannot transfer DVC points to another owner for consideration but there is NOTHING in any of the DVC paperwork that says that owners may not rent out points. If there were, DVC would be in violation of their own agreements since they often rent out the points that are exchanged through their system for cruises or non-DVC resort stays as well as maintaining 4% of resort inventory for rental purposes.

 

[simpilotswife]

The other poster is right though, technically DVC says you cannot rent your points out but people still do it. DVC will not be able to help you here either.

No they don't and if you find any language that says differently please post it on the DIS DVC forum so that we may refer to it when some of the posters call to report people that rent their points for profit.

The really sad part in all of this is that both you and barkley don't seem to understand that if it truly were illegal to rent DVC points, the DIS would not have a separate board allowing people to do it.

 

[simpilotswife]

And to answer the OP's question, yes file a dispute with both Paypal and your CC company. Since you did not rent the points on ebay I am not sure how much leverage you will have but go for it. And do it soon, generally there are time limits on how long you have to dispute something.

 

[jfulcer]

No they don't and if you find any language that says differently please post it on the DIS DVC forum so that we may refer to it when some of the posters call to report people that rent their points for profit.

Taken from the Online Member Guidebook, page 17 :

Reservation requests may be made only by a DVC Member, however reserved The Disney Collection Accommodations may be occupied by a DVC Member and/or a Guest or Guests. Reserved The Disney Collection Accommodations are for the personal use of DVC Members and their Guests and may not be assigned, bartered, rented, sold, otherwise transferred or used for any commercial purpose by the DVC Member or Guest in whose name the reservation is confirmed.

The really sad part in all of this is that both you and barkley don't seem to understand that if it truly were illegal to rent DVC points, the DIS would not have a separate board allowing people to do it.

So Yes, according to the contract, you cannot do it. But people do it. The DIS has a board because it's not up to the DIS to make people abide by their contract - they are simply providing a service. It's a "Don't ask Don't tell" kinda thing. Most people if they DO rent their points it's a one time thing, when they can't use them or some such. This language, IMHO, is in there so Disney can squash those that appear to make a living off of selling DVC points. I'd be pretty certain DVD knows who does this frequently.

 

[barkley]

not going to argue about it nor go dig up my purchase docs from the garage but that's what we were told when we bought in the 90's. as i recall (and again it was years ago) it had something to do with the liability of being a dvc owner-while you were'nt prohibited from from charging someone to use your points specificly there was some provision wherein if dvc found that you were in actuality selling in whole or part your "interest" on a regular (don't ask me what they meant by regular) basis they (dvc) could invoke the whole first right of purchase clause. they were also very clear in the contract that despite any private agreement between a dvc owner and a non-the dvc owner would be held liable for any damages caused by the non dvc person to the property/any claims against disney by the non dvc'r.

as far as disney renting out points-they own dvc-they can do whatever they (legaly) want to do: rent the points, transfer them for consideration to an existing member...they are not held to any of the buyers provisions in the purchasing contract (as evidenced by individual dvc sales people being able to book an existing owner into a non home resort outside the recognized window/using expired points-to clinch a new purchase agreement).

again not to argue-just what we were disclosed.

 

[barkley]

Taken from the Online Member Guidebook, page 17 (it's online):





So Yes, according to the contract, you cannot do it. But people do it. The DIS has a board because it's not up to the DIS to make people abide by their contract - they are simply providing a service. It's a "Don't ask Don't tell" kinda thing. Most people if they DO rent their points it's a one time thing, when they can't use them or some such. This language, IMHO, is in there so Disney can squash those that appear to make a living off of selling DVC points. I'd be pretty certain DVD knows who does this frequently.

thanks for finding this-i knew it was in the paperwork somewhere.

 

[simpilotswife]

The Disney Collection is not comprised of the DVC Vacation Club Resorts. From the DVC member site the Disney Collection is the following:

The Disney Collection
Walt Disney World® Resort in Florida
Disneyland® Resort in California
Disneyland® Resort Paris
Hong Kong Disneyland® Resort
Tokyo Disney Resort®
Disney Cruise Line® - 3-Night Cruise to The Bahamas
Disney Cruise Line® - 4-Night Cruise to The Bahamas
Disney Cruise Line® - 7-Night Cruise to the Eastern Caribbean
Disney Cruise Line® - 7-Night Cruise to the Western Caribbean
Disney Cruise Line® - 7-Night Cruise to Costa Maya
Disney Cruise Line® - 10-Night Cruise to the Caribbean
Disney Cruise Line® - 10-Night Cruise to the Caribbean on the Disney Wonder
Disney Cruise Line® - 11-Night Cruise to the Caribbean on the Disney Wonder
Disney Cruise Line® - 4-Night S.S. Member Cruise 2006 on the Disney Wonder

Basically the accommodations in the Disney Collection are everything else at WDW but the DVC Resorts.

Too bad Richyams didn't know that renting was illegal before he died (although considering how meticulously he read the contracts I am surprised to see that he didn't know this). I'm sure he would have enjoyed spending his days reporting DIS rental scofflaws.

It's also nice to see that both of you think that the DIS would promote an activity that is supposedly illegal. Maybe you should go over to the DVC board and get some clarification about what the contracts really say before continuing further on.

 

[DVC SUNSHINE]

The person the thread starter talks about is a good friend of mine and is really upset about this. First of all they have had to sell their DVC and for the past couple of weeks they have been very busy getting everything to The Timeshare Store. Disney did not buy the points back so they are now in the closing process. I know for a fact that she told the renter that she had forgot about the refund because she had been so busy trying to get everything faxed but also told her that she would take care of it with in a few days. She has just called me and was very upset because she had rec'd another call. I just want everyone to know that sometime people have a lot on their plate and things get pushed to the side. I just wish before everyone starts bashing someone that they stop and think maybe this person is having a real hard time right now and we should not jump to bash them. This is just my thought and I am not saying everyone has to think this way. So dont go flaming me. You all can think what you want but the renter should have listend to my friend trying to tell her she was sorry and that she would get it taken care of. I know she should have refunded the money right away I would have but there is no reason for people to be so rude.


Oh and by the way.....The renter has been refunded her money.

Thanks for listening.....The Friend.

 

[Chicago526]

The person the thread starter talks about is a good friend of mine and is really upset about this. First of all they have had to sell their DVC and for the past couple of weeks they have been very busy getting everything to The Timeshare Store. Disney did not buy the points back so they are now in the closing process. I know for a fact that she told the renter that she had forgot about the refund because she had been so busy trying to get everything faxed but also told her that she would take care of it with in a few days. She has just called me and was very upset because she had rec'd another call. I just want everyone to know that sometime people have a lot on their plate and things get pushed to the side. I just wish before everyone starts bashing someone that they stop and think maybe this person is having a real hard time right now and we should not jump to bash them. This is just my thought and I am not saying everyone has to think this way. So dont go flaming me. You all can think what you want but the renter should have listend to my friend trying to tell her she was sorry and that she would get it taken care of. I know she should have refunded the money right away I would have but there is no reason for people to be so rude.


Oh and by the way.....The renter has been refunded her money.

Thanks for listening.....The Friend.

I've been lurking on this thread. I'm glad it worked out and that your friend refunded the money. I'd don't think the OP was accusing your friend of being dishonest, but was just really getting worried about the money be refunded. I imagine that it's a lot of money, and I'd be upset and nervous too, in that same circumstance. The OP was just looking for advice on the next step if your friend wansn't going to refund the money.

As for if renting points is allowed or not, I leave that to the experts!

 

[simpilotswife]

DVCSunshine, I did not see anyone bashing the person who rented the points so I am at a loss as to why you mention people being bashed.

It's nice that you want to defend your friend but let's be honest here, refunding someone's money through Paypal takes literally 2 minutes tops.

I'm sorry that your friend is upset that she had to sell DVC and wound up having someone post about her but honestly if I were in the OP's shoes I would have done the same thing.

 

[tarmand]

The person the thread starter talks about is a good friend of mine and is really upset about this. First of all they have had to sell their DVC and for the past couple of weeks they have been very busy getting everything to The Timeshare Store. Disney did not buy the points back so they are now in the closing process. I know for a fact that she told the renter that she had forgot about the refund because she had been so busy trying to get everything faxed but also told her that she would take care of it with in a few days. She has just called me and was very upset because she had rec'd another call. I just want everyone to know that sometime people have a lot on their plate and things get pushed to the side. I just wish before everyone starts bashing someone that they stop and think maybe this person is having a real hard time right now and we should not jump to bash them. This is just my thought and I am not saying everyone has to think this way. So dont go flaming me. You all can think what you want but the renter should have listend to my friend trying to tell her she was sorry and that she would get it taken care of. I know she should have refunded the money right away I would have but there is no reason for people to be so rude.


Oh and by the way.....The renter has been refunded her money.

Thanks for listening.....The Friend.

To be perfectly honest, if it were my money, I'd be bashing your friend up one end of the internet and down the other. Face it, she entered into an agreement and then backed without immediately refunding the OP's money. THE MINUTE she backed out of the agreement, she should have refunded the money - immediately. If someone were messing around with my finances and my trip to Disney, it would be a big problem for me as well. I'm afraid that your friend was completely in the wrong and it's a shame that it took the OPs post for her to finally refund the money. I'm sure the OP was really upset about the fact that your friend, good person or not, had her money and was being quite irresponsible by not refunding it promptly.