Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?

[Dracula]

If the refund is more or less immediate from a chargeback, but then the claim goes in favour of David’s, the bank would then ask me to repay them?

I may yet accept the credit, as I want to give all parties the benefit of the doubt, but I am concerned about the value of the credit voucher.
I suppose if David’s went bust, I could then try and claim via my travel insurance?

Absolutely - if the bank decides in favour of David's, your credit card account would be charged for the amount, and you would need to repay them.

The answer to your second question is not so clear. Once you accept a voucher, I think your chance of credit card chargeback are much reduced. For travel insurance, I think most policies cover specific reservations or travel plans, and not vouchers. In addition there should be a specific coverage for "travel agent insolvency" or similar. If you purchased travel insurance, it may be best to reach out to them and get their advice too (in writing). I think you would have a much harder time to collect from a travel insurance policy than from the credit card - insurance companies just don't like to pay claims, and are ready to go to court over it, whereas credit card companies need to comply with more stringent regulations regarding consumer protection.

 

[BWV Dreamin]

I’d love to hear success stories of chargebacks... is that worth starting a new thread for? Just like to know the sort of process people had to go through.

You could always start a poll...just sayin..

 

[Frustrated renter]

Absolutely - if the bank decides in favour of David's, your credit card account would be charged for the amount, and you would need to repay them.

The answer to your second question is not so clear. Once you accept a voucher, I think your chance of credit card chargeback are much reduced. For travel insurance, I think most policies cover specific reservations or travel plans, and not vouchers. In addition there should be a specific coverage for "travel agent insolvency" or similar. If you purchased travel insurance, it may be best to reach out to them and get their advice too (in writing). I think you would have a much harder time to collect from a travel insurance policy than from the credit card - insurance companies just don't like to pay claims, and are ready to go to court over it, whereas credit card companies need to comply with more stringent regulations regarding consumer protection.

if you initiate a charge back you don’t get money back until the chargeback has been resolved in your favor. The credit card company pulls it back from David’s and holds it in escrow.

the process usually takes about 45 days to resolve, so I doubt anyone can tell the success/failure rate for some time yet.

 

[Sandisw]

if you initiate a charge back you don’t get money back until the chargeback has been resolved in your favor. The credit card company pulls it back from David’s and holds it in escrow.

the process usually takes about 45 days to resolve, so I doubt anyone can tell the success/failure rate for some time yet.

I know of someone who did in fact get the credit back to the card immediately. So, it must not be all CC that hold it.

 

[foodiddiedoo]

If the refund is more or less immediate from a chargeback, but then the claim goes in favour of David’s, the bank would then ask me to repay them?

I may yet accept the credit, as I want to give all parties the benefit of the doubt, but I am concerned about the value of the credit voucher.
I suppose if David’s went bust, I could then try and claim via my travel insurance?

I initiated a chargeback claim this morning with my credit card company. This doesn't seem like an instantaneous thing as previous posters mentioned as they said I would be receiving information in the mail. I mentioned that I emailed David's a month ago, got a standard, "don't bother us we'll figure something out email" and mentioned the clause in the contract that says you are due a full refund if you don't receive any accommodations. The person I talked to via the phone did not seem to think this was unreasonable, just asked for a ton of information as to what the resort was and when the check in and check out dates were. I hope that it goes through, but could see this dragging on for months.
FWIW the guy I talked to at my Credit Card said this was for sure worth fighting, even for something as small as 500 dollars you shouldn't lose it without receiving anything. My rental was over 4500 for the week so I really thought it was worth trying that route. I don't want to be stuck with that much money that might never be usable with David's. I mentioned several times that they are not offering a cash refund for the accommodations.

 

[disneypharm]

It is irritating that Disney does not just come out and say that they are closed in May (just like Universal). The longer the people with May reservations wait, the harder it will get to do a chargeback with CC companies.

“Due to the complexity of the point system and the fact that Owners may have to bank or borrow points in order to secure your reservation, cancellations, upgrades and date modifications are not permitted.”

The choice of the words above is BS!! I understand that some owners with banked points might not be able to reschedule or refund cash, but others might be able to do. David is trying to keep his relationship with the owners for the future, so screwing the renter in the meantime. Owners will get their points back and keep their 70% from David’s (yes, I know some banked points will be lost but we still don’t know what DVC will do for sure). From comments from some owners on this thread, I guess a lot of owners don’t really care what happens to renters.

By providing a voucher that might become worthless eventually, he is trying to get the CC companies not do the chargebacks right now. If he ended up bankrupt months from now, our ability to get any money from CC companies will be close to zero!!

I am tired of reading from owners that we signed the contract that clearly says non-refundable, but the same contract states that refund (not a voucher) will be provided if the accommodation is not available.

 

[fsjking]

I think David breaks the contract first when and if he defaults on the residual payment for the first reservation. I understand the second renter is innocent of David’s default, but the second renter has chargeback as a recourse, whereas the owner would be left to lose on all subsequent reservations.

Correct - you can file a dispute with the credit card company and indicate that you have not received the goods or services promised. You will likely get an immediate refund, but may need to submit additional paperwork and explanations as to what actually happened in the coming weeks. This is for you, as a renter, the best option as you recover your expense and can book anything else in the future. But, as others have mentioned, there is no guarantee of success and the credit card company may determine the services were in fact provided - in which case you should still be left with the voucher. And if a lot of renters choose this option, David's is sure to go into bankruptcy, which would render the vouchers of all renters who accepted them worthless. It would basically be a run on the bank.

In principle the voucher terms sound very good, you should be able to use it on many choices - just not quite as good as the cash. However, I am not sure how accepting a voucher may impact your ability to pursue a credit card chargeback in the future, and in case of David's bankruptcy, the voucher would be worth zero.

So your justification for keeping the money is the renter can do a chargeback. Then in your second message you say chargebacks aren't guaranteed. And yet you still think you are justified canceling reservations and getting both the points and the money. lol

 

[foodiddiedoo]

It is irritating that Disney does not just come out and say that they are closed in May (just like Universal). The longer the people with May reservations wait, the harder it will get to do a chargeback with CC companies.

“Due to the complexity of the point system and the fact that Owners may have to bank or borrow points in order to secure your reservation, cancellations, upgrades and date modifications are not permitted.”

The choice of the words above is BS!! I understand that some owners with banked points might not be able to reschedule or refund cash, but others might be able to do. David is trying to keep his relationship with the owners for the future, so screwing the renter in the meantime. Owners will get their points back and keep their 70% from David’s (yes, I know some banked points will be lost but we still don’t know what DVC will do for sure). From comments from some owners on this thread, I guess a lot of owners don’t really care what happens to renters.

By providing a voucher that might become worthless eventually, he is trying to get the CC companies not do the chargebacks right now. If he ended up bankrupt months from now, our ability to get any money from CC companies will be close to zero!!

I am tired of reading from owners that we signed the contract that clearly says non-refundable, but the same contract states that refund (not a voucher) will be provided if the accommodation is not available.

That's exactly why I went the chargeback route. It's not like the contract doesn't clearly state if my accomodation isn't available, then I am due a full refund. I know they obviously cannot give me the money if they don't have it, but I really don't want to rely on them remaining in business to MAYBE see some benefit from my money that I haven't had since September of last year.

 

[IdahoDisneyFan]

By providing a voucher that might become worthless eventually, he is trying to get the CC companies not do the chargebacks right now. If he ended up bankrupt months from now, our ability to get any money from CC companies will be close to zero!!

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure one of the purposes of chargeback protection is for cases where a business is insolvent and can't provide the paid-for product/service. So, if David's were to go out of business, it seems to me a chargeback is almost a certainty at that point. Am I missing something there?

 

[disneypharm]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure one of the purposes of chargeback protection is for cases where a business is insolvent and can't provide the paid-for product/service. So, if David's were to go out of business, it seems to me a chargeback is almost a certainty at that point. Am I missing something there?

I have only done one chargeback in the past and that was within a month of purchase. I doubt any CC company will want to deal with a product purchased 1.5-2 years before a dispute. Hope I am wrong.

 

[meryll83]

That's exactly why I went the chargeback route. It's not like the contract doesn't clearly state if my accomodation isn't available, then I am due a full refund. I know they obviously cannot give me the money if they don't have it, but I really don't want to rely on them remaining in business to MAYBE see some benefit from my money that I haven't had since September of last year.

Is this the section of the contract you’re referring to? Because it’s not the owner’s fault is it...

“ Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Owner, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Owner and after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations for the same dates cannot be secured by the Owner, the Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid which is XXXX US Dollars“

 

[foodiddiedoo]

Is this the section of the contract you’re referring to? Because it’s not the owner’s fault is it...

“ Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Owner, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Owner and after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations for the same dates cannot be secured by the Owner, the Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid which is XXXX US Dollars“

But the owner cannot provide any comparable accommodations. It's absolutely not their fault but they are unable to provide anything. Therefore David's should be issuing a refund not a credit.

 

[Frustrated renter]

I know of someone who did in fact get the credit back to the card immediately. So, it must not be all CC that hold it.

I have only done one chargeback in the past and that was within a month of purchase. I doubt any CC company will want to deal with a product purchased 1.5-2 years before a dispute. Hope I am wrong.

If you file a chargeback you can ask the credit card company to waive the normal 120 time frame by pointing out the service date (check in date) should take precedence over the purchase date. It’s up to the credit card company though. They don’t have to make an exception (and I have seen them deny the chargeback for airfare just because it’s past the 120 day cutoff since purchase even though the flight was cancelled a week before scheduled departure).

I hope most credit cards do choose to allow chargebacks this far from purchase. I’m contemplating a chargeback myself, but I’m doubtful about the chance of success. The contract is far from clear that a cash refund is due if accommodations are unavailable unless through an action of the owner. Since Disney, not the owner, cancelled the reservation I think there’s a good chance of losing a chargeback if David’s provides sufficient support.

 

[Dracula]

I initiated a chargeback claim this morning with my credit card company. This doesn't seem like an instantaneous thing as previous posters mentioned as they said I would be receiving information in the mail. I mentioned that I emailed David's a month ago, got a standard, "don't bother us we'll figure something out email" and mentioned the clause in the contract that says you are due a full refund if you don't receive any accommodations. The person I talked to via the phone did not seem to think this was unreasonable, just asked for a ton of information as to what the resort was and when the check in and check out dates were. I hope that it goes through, but could see this dragging on for months.
FWIW the guy I talked to at my Credit Card said this was for sure worth fighting, even for something as small as 500 dollars you shouldn't lose it without receiving anything. My rental was over 4500 for the week so I really thought it was worth trying that route. I don't want to be stuck with that much money that might never be usable with David's. I mentioned several times that they are not offering a cash refund for the accommodations.

I had to do a credit card chargeback with RCL for a June cruise we cancelled in March, 95 days prior to sailing. According to their terms and conditions, the cruise was 100% refundable for cancellations beyond 90 days unless there were non-refundable deposits, but when I called Costco Travel to cancel, they claimed there is an $1800 non-refundable fee. When getting only a partial refund, I disputed the payment with the Chase Sapphire Reserve card and received $1400 the next day (this is what I claimed, because I thought the $400 deposit was non-refundable). But meanwhile, RCL sent some screenshots from their computer arguing they deserve the $1800, and Chase gave me 4 weeks to comment. I will reply back with the travel confirmations from Costco, which only show a $400 deposit and don't make any reference to $1800 being non-refundable. Still can't be 100% sure how this would play out, but it is hard to believe Chase will rule for RCL based on the paperwork. In hindsight, it would have been better to let RCL cancel the cruise, and try to recover the $400 non-refundable deposit too. Note that to incentivize travelers to accept their credit vouchers, RCL and other cruise lines are issuing 125% vouchers to travelers forgoing a cash refund.

 

[Marionnette]

But the owner cannot provide any comparable accommodations. It's absolutely not their fault but they are unable to provide anything. Therefore David's should be issuing a refund not a credit.

If the lack of available accommodations was not “due to an action or omission by the owner” doesn’t that render the rest of the sentence moot? That’s wherein the point of contention lies and this thread seems to be arguing that same thing over and over again.

If I were a renter, I would want a refund, too, instead of a voucher. From an owner’s perspective, I understand why some owners won’t be returning money to David’s, one of those reasons being that the money is not going back to the renter as cash but being retained by David’s to fund their voucher program.

 

[foodiddiedoo]

If the lack of available accommodations was not “due to an action or omission by the owner” doesn’t that render the rest of the sentence moot? That’s wherein the point of contention lies and this thread seems to be arguing that same thing over and over again.

If I were a renter, I would want a refund, too, instead of a voucher. From an owner’s perspective, I understand why some owners won’t be returning money to David’s, one of those reasons being that the money is not going back to the renter as cash but being retained by David’s to fund their voucher program.

Yeah figure I can try with CC and if it fails accept my voucher.

 

[Yinn]

If I were a renter, I would want a refund, too, instead of a voucher. From an owner’s perspective, I understand why some owners won’t be returning money to David’s, one of those reasons being that the money is not going back to the renter as cash but being retained by David’s to fund their voucher program.

This is the part that's a huge sticking point for me.

They're asking owners for a cash refund. But they're offering renters a travel voucher. My renter asked for a PARTIAL cash refund. They're reasonable and understand I'm losing points - can't reschedule we tried. I'm appreciative of that and am willing to return cash to them. But David's is in the middle.

Well why don't I just refund the renter directly? Because the numbers don't make sense. If we agree on a 50/50 split and I return 50% of what the renter paid, that's nearly the entire amount the owner has been paid.

- Renter paid 100% @ $18/pt
- Davids takes 20% commission
- Owner gets 70% of remaining 80% = 56% of what renter paid. This is important as David's holds 44% of the total cash the renter paid and an owner can't make a meaningful direct refund without essentially refunding the entire amount.
- Davids holds remaining 24% due to the owner. Amount is not escrowed, nor is interest passed on to the owner. David's collects interest
- Davids asks owners to return what owner got (56% of renter paid)
- Davids now holds 100% of what renter paid
- Owner's points expire, left "holding the bag" with 0 compensation for time, lost points, etc.
- Davids gives "voucher" to renter
- Renter picks an agreeable date.
- David's is now charging $19/pt - and that's assuming 2021 points charts didn't increase points needed.
- Renter has to make up $1/point paid to Davids
- David's pays owner $14.50/point.

So all said and done.
- Davids made more money than the original rental.
- Owner loses points, no compensation.
- Renter loses vacation, pays $1/pt or 5.5% more for their rescheduled vacation.
- New Owner is made whole, no effect.

The original owner and original renter get to hold the bag together while David's profits. Owners, reach into your conscious while we profit off of this. Sorry, but this is a big shame on them.

 

[BWV Dreamin]

If the lack of available accommodations was not “due to an action or omission by the owner” doesn’t that render the rest of the sentence moot? That’s wherein the point of contention lies and this thread seems to be arguing that same thing over and over again.

If I were a renter, I would want a refund, too, instead of a voucher. From an owner’s perspective, I understand why some owners won’t be returning money to David’s, one of those reasons being that the money is not going back to the renter as cash but being retained by David’s to fund their voucher program.

Is there a work around David to refund the monies directly to the owner?

 

[disneypharm]

If the lack of available accommodations was not “due to an action or omission by the owner” doesn’t that render the rest of the sentence moot? That’s wherein the point of contention lies and this thread seems to be arguing that same thing over and over again.

If I were a renter, I would want a refund, too, instead of a voucher. From an owner’s perspective, I understand why some owners won’t be returning money to David’s, one of those reasons being that the money is not going back to the renter as cash but being retained by David’s to fund their voucher program.

“Due to the complexity of the point system and the fact that Owners may have to bank or borrow points in order to secure your reservation, cancellations, upgrades and date modifications are not permitted.”

In my post above, I brought up the point that the broker is not allowing the owners to work with renters! I believe that this is to keep owners happy so that they will stay with him. Yes, you might think that the statement in the contract states that the lack of availability of accommodations is not "due to an action or omission by the owner", but there is no place in the contract stating that owners cannot work with renters to refund or reschedule the reservation. I don't blame owners wanting to keep the money for their points, but if Disney is returning their points (points that can be used later), then I think it is double-dipping and they should (ethically) try to help the renter get what they paid for.

 

[Yinn]

Is there a work around David to refund the monies directly to the owner?

I replied just before you did. The problem with doing that is even if the owner refunds 100% of what they received. The renter would only get 56% of what they paid. There's no easy way to a compromise without David's willing to part with cash.