Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?

[Sandisw]

If they were transferring it would have to be current points and they would be bankable which the OTU points are not. I don't know what it really is that DVC is doing with the OTU points. A quasi transfer? A limited transfer? Now that you bring it up it's a bit strange. Another of their own rules.

Yes, there own rules, but since they go into your account, it is a transfer from them to you, but are not bankable

 

[fsjking]

If a renter cannot receive points because they are not a member it’s their problem. If they want points transferred to them they can become members. As an owner we don’t know or care about the membership status of the renter. It’s up to the renter to understand what they are buying.

I. Owners contracts are with David’s. Any payment for breaching that contract are made to David’s, not directly to any renter. Refunds from owners in connection with the Virus are not being paid to any renter. David’s is keeping them.

2. Renters pay David’s they don’t pay the owners.

3. The owners contract is very clear. They get paid when the reservation is made and receive a balance when a renter checks in. Owners are only liable for a refund if they cancel the reservation or take action to stop it happening.

4. The no refunds or changes clause is signed by the renter.

As an owner who is willing to help I know that I have Hee Haw liability to do anything I don’t want to. Any help I give is down to my goodwill.

Renters may have a claim against David’s, but they have zero chance of making a successful claim against owners.

Tell you what. Call DVC, or your lawyer, up. Let them read your purchase contract. Ask them whose problem it is that you are trying to transfer points to a non-member. You clearly are incapable of understanding your contract or just are choosing to ignore what you signed. Neither makes you right.

Again, it’s semantics and if you read the POS, even Disney understands that this is a wordplay to meet Florida Timeshare law.

How does a member rent from DVC? They, wait for it, buy one-time-use points. That’s DVC’s own expression of their points rental business.

When DVC charges dues, it does so by the point. But how can DVC assess a charge per point if points have no value?? It’s a conspiracy I tell you!!

How are reservations priced through David’s? Yes, by the point - but if the owner’s contract with Disney says the points have no value (and it does), then David’s broke the rules by charging a value per point and all his contracts are void, having violated the POS of the owners.

or

We can understand that regardless whether we call them bullets or rounds, clips or magazines, everybody here knows that points are what are loaded into reservations. And just like firepower is gauged by the size of the round (.45, 22lr), reservations are typically metered by the price per point - regardless what Disney officially claims are the value of those points.

Points are a purchase medium for DVC reservations and have value equal to the reservation value divided by the number of points necessary to secure the reservation. Securing that reservation means first acquiring the points, at the value they represent. Everything else is wordplay.

My private contract with renters is specific enough to convey what is being purchased and the roles both parties play in turning that purchase into a valid reservation. If I broke “the rules” by refusing to entertain the fiction that points have no value, then so did Disney. So did David’s.

To use your gun analogy, a parent can take a minor out and let them shoot a handgun. They cannot give them the gun to own. Federal law prohibits that. Your contract with DVC prevents you from giving possession of points to a non-member. But you can make them a reservation using those points. Just like you can't write a contract with a 12 year old that takes precedence over federal law, you can't make a contract saying you are renting someone points that would over rule your contract with DVC. The fact that DVC will not talk to a non-member about a reservation or let them use points to make new ones is all the proof you need.

 

[ziravan]

Yes, there own rules, but since they go into your account, it is a transfer from them to you, but are not bankable

And again, by the same terms, DVC says points cannot be transferred for value and yet it does so anyway.

Whether the value is in the points or the “ownership interest” is purposefully a game of semantics that everyone, including Disney, is playing,

I do not dispute Disney’s legal layout to satisfy Florida timeshare law that the ownership is an actual interest and not points. It is a fiction that the points hold no value on their own.

Sort of reminds me of the internet argument on currency vs money. What is what? I’m just not at all vested in the argument that’s there’s a substantial difference between points and reservations. You can point to contract language all you like. Even Disney, through their actions, acknowledge that points having no value is just a polite fiction between them and Florida Law.

Could DVC contest as a breach of contract an owner placing value directly in points and ascribing that value by rent to someone else? Possibly, but they’d spend quite a bit of time in doing so having to defend their own actions as a point owner that does the exact same thing.

 

[Amymouse13]

This hasn't been brought up recently... But what's dvc doing for owners? Saw some article show up in my Google about how dvc was screwing owners. So how long can Disney be closed and they say too bad so sad? (Topic adjacent relevant if they later don't let all points expire)

 

[Sandisw]

And again, by the same terms, DVC says points cannot be transferred for value and yet it does so anyway.

Whether the value is in the points or the “ownership interest” is purposefully a game of semantics that everyone, including Disney, is playing,

I do not dispute Disney’s legal layout to satisfy Florida timeshare law that the ownership is an actual interest and not points. It is a fiction that the points hold no value on their own.

Sort of reminds me of the internet argument on currency vs money. What is what? I’m just not at all vested in the argument that’s there’s a substantial difference between points and reservations. You can point to contract language all you like. Even Disney, through their actions, acknowledge that points having no value is just a polite fiction between them and Florida Law.

Could DVC contest as a breach of contract an owner placing value directly in points and ascribing that value by rent to someone else? Possibly, but they’d spend quite a bit of time in doing so having to defend their own actions as a point owner that does the exact same thing.

They can do it because they are allowed to have different rules. The POS gives them that right. Just like They don’t have to follow the 11 month booking rule.

I think this started when some insisted that the renter was out of luck and it had nothing to do with the reservation because they rented points.

Davids new voucher system is clearer now, It says you can use it for a points reservstion, cash reservation, etc. So, it’s not being billed as just points.

I agree, DVC is not going after anyone and it is, as you have said, a semantically difference. But, in practical terms, for any renter who is being Told that expecting the reservation isn’t necessary because they rented points, it does IMO.

 

[Sandisw]

This hasn't been brought up recently... But what's dvc doing for owners? Saw some article show up in my Google about how dvc was screwing owners. So how long can Disney be closed and they say too bad so sad? (Topic adjacent relevant if they later don't let all points expire)

DVC has waived holding, which means points are returned without restrictions that normally happen if a reservation is canceled less than 31 days before check in.

DVC is also allowing those points that were borrowed to be returned to their original UY,

DVC is keeping the banking rules in place and ths is what has people upset. When an owner books points toward the end of the UY it is risky because if something happens, they still expire at the end of it,

So, banked points and points that were beyond the banking window have to be used as normal, no changes, The reason is moving all of those points forward will have a huge impact and imbalance in the system, so DVC has said they can’t do anything for those types of points until this is over, Once it is, they may be able to do something so owners don’t lose them,

 

[ziravan]

They can do it because they are allowed to have different rules. The POS gives them that right. Just like They don’t have to follow the 11 month booking rule.

I think this started when some insisted that the renter was out of luck and it had nothing to do with the reservation because they rented points.

Davids new voucher system is clearer now, It says you can use it for a points reservstion, cash reservation, etc. So, it’s not being billed as just points.

I agree, DVC is not going after anyone and it is, as you have said, a semantically difference. But, in practical terms, for any renter who is being Told that expecting the reservation isn’t necessary because they rented points, it does IMO.

I see now. We’re coming from different ends.

“It’s points so if a reservation didn’t happen it doesn’t count,” wasn’t an argument I was trying to make.

In my private rental, our contractual understanding regarding a reservation being valid within the viability of the specific points used was a benefit for my renter, not an excuse to not honor the deal.

 

[skatalite]

Reading all of this has me wondering what's going to come of our November/December 2020 trip, which we booked lodging for via David's.

I understand things are up in the air right now when it comes to re-opening dates for the parks, etc., but I'm concerned with all of the chatter in this thread about David's closing down and leaving folks high and dry.

It doesn't seem, as of right now since my reservations are not directly impacted by the closure, there's anything I can do.

All of the information and dialogue you're having is much appreciated!

 

[yankeesfan123]

Reading all of this has me wondering what's going to come of our November/December 2020 trip, which we booked lodging for via David's.

I understand things are up in the air right now when it comes to re-opening dates for the parks, etc., but I'm concerned with all of the chatter in this thread about David's closing down and leaving folks high and dry.

It doesn't seem, as of right now since my reservations are not directly impacted by the closure, there's nothing I can do.

All of the information and dialogue you're having is much appreciated!

I’d hope that even if David’s shuts down, the owner would keep your reservation in place. The owner would be out some money though, so who knows.

 

[Dentam]

Reading all of this has me wondering what's going to come of our November/December 2020 trip, which we booked lodging for via David's.

I understand things are up in the air right now when it comes to re-opening dates for the parks, etc., but I'm concerned with all of the chatter in this thread about David's closing down and leaving folks high and dry.

It doesn't seem, as of right now since my reservations are not directly impacted by the closure, there's nothing I can do.

All of the information and dialogue you're having is much appreciated!

I'm booked through David's for Labor Day week and have the same concerns. I don't see how the parks can reopen while still accommodating the levels of reservations booked prior to the pandemic until a vaccine is developed. I'm not expecting WDW to be open in September, or at least not at full capacity. I just wonder if I'll be able to get my money back from David's - wondering if the business will last that long? I'm thinking from reading this thread that I could get the money back from the cc I used to book it though. Not sure if I'm understanding that correctly though. It's a wait and see game at this point!

 

[Dracula]

I would love to keep the reservations in place, but having 5 more reservations with David's through the end of 2020, I am not ready to take that big of a loss. So here's my plan:
1. Once David's 30% is due for the first reservation, I will send him a payment reminder
2. Three business days later, I will send David a notice of default and will advise that I will cancel the other reservations
3. Three more business days later, I will reach out to the 4 remaining renters to advise of David's default, explain their reservations need to be canceled, and suggest to them to initiate a credit card chargeback. If they choose to, they can re-instate their reservation by sending over 50% of the reservation cost. This is a fantastic saving for the renter, plus an additional choice - if they pass, I will have some points in holding status, which are still better than renting them out at $10/point.

 

[Sandisw]

I'm booked through David's for Labor Day week and have the same concerns. I don't see how the parks can reopen while still accommodating the levels of reservations booked prior to the pandemic until a vaccine is developed. I'm not expecting WDW to be open in September, or at least not at full capacity. I just wonder if I'll be able to get my money back from David's - wondering if the business will last that long? I'm thinking from reading this thread that I could get the money back from the cc I used to book it though. Not sure if I'm understanding that correctly though. It's a wait and see game at this point!

Based on what is happening, it doesn’t appear any refund will be given. If the resort is actually closed, it appears you will be given a travel voucher for the amount paid to use within 2 years.

If the resort is open, and you just don’t feel comfortable going, you will most likely be out of luck as that would be your choice to cancel.

If you are not comfortable with the voucher, and believe a resort closing entitles you to a refund, then you can initiate the CC chargeback at that time.

 

[LAX]

I'm booked through David's for Labor Day week and have the same concerns. I don't see how the parks can reopen while still accommodating the levels of reservations booked prior to the pandemic until a vaccine is developed. I'm not expecting WDW to be open in September, or at least not at full capacity. I just wonder if I'll be able to get my money back from David's - wondering if the business will last that long? I'm thinking from reading this thread that I could get the money back from the cc I used to book it though. Not sure if I'm understanding that correctly though. It's a wait and see game at this point!

If the resort you reserved is open, you have no chance of a refund even if everything else around the resort are still closed, unfortunately. I think many businesses will have reopened at some capacities by September. It's debatable to what extent the parks will be opened, though. Good luck.

LAX

 

[fsjking]

I would love to keep the reservations in place, but having 5 more reservations with David's through the end of 2020, I am not ready to take that big of a loss. So here's my plan:
1. Once David's 30% is due for the first reservation, I will send him a payment reminder
2. Three business days later, I will send David a notice of default and will advise that I will cancel the other reservations
3. Three more business days later, I will reach out to the 4 remaining renters to advise of David's default, explain their reservations need to be canceled, and suggest to them to initiate a credit card chargeback. If they choose to, they can re-instate their reservation by sending over 50% of the reservation cost. This is a fantastic saving for the renter, plus an additional choice - if they pass, I will have some points in holding status, which are still better than renting them out at $10/point.

So you are saying you are going to cancel 4 reservations, keep the points and the 70% payment from those?

 

[Grnl706]

So you are saying you are going to cancel 4 reservations, keep the points and the 70% payment from those?

That's what it sounds like to me. Plus the renter pay again with the charge back not even being a guarantee?

 

[Dentam]

If the resort you reserved is open, you have no chance of a refund even if everything else around the resort are still closed, unfortunately. I think many businesses will have reopened at come capacities by September. It's debatable to what extent the parks will be opened, though. Good luck.

LAX

Yes, I've already been told that on this thread and understand that - thank you! I don't believe the resorts will open at full capacity if the parks don't and I also don't think it will be feasible for either to by September. Like I said, it's a waiting game at this point to see what happens.

 

[Dentam]

Based on what is happening, it doesn’t appear any refund will be given. If the resort is actually closed, it appears you will be given a travel voucher for the amount paid to use within 2 years.

If the resort is open, and you just don’t feel comfortable going, you will most likely be out of luck as that would be your choice to cancel.

If you are not comfortable with the voucher, and believe a resort closing entitles you to a refund, then you can initiate the CC chargeback at that time.

Yes, I understand that and have already been told that on here - thanks! I was responding to the person who posted about being in the same boat as me with a trip booked for later in the year. I should have included "resorts" in my post instead of just saying "WDW".

 

[Dracula]

So you are saying you are going to cancel 4 reservations, keep the points and the 70% payment from those?

To clarify - David only passed over 50% of the market value of the points, and points that were blocked for 10 months, and in holding, don’t have nearly the same value as “fresh points”. So, yes, once David defaults, if the renter is not willing to do chargeback and rerent, I would have the points back and the 50% as compensation for losing money on the first reservation and now other points in holding status. And the renter should have all the money back.

 

[Dracula]

That's what it sounds like to me. Plus the renter pay again with the charge back not even being a guarantee?

I remain open-minded and sympathetic, if there is another way that the renter and lender could share in the loss caused by the intermediary’s default, let me know. This is also purely hypothetical, David is not bankrupt yet. But I don’t see a good reason why an owner needs to go through with a rental at 50% of the market value, just because the broker is broke.

 

[fsjking]

To clarify - David only passed over 50% of the market value of the points, and points that were blocked for 10 months, and in holding, don’t have nearly the same value as “fresh points”. So, yes, once David defaults, if the renter is not willing to do chargeback and rerent, I would have the points back and the 50% as compensation for losing money on the first reservation and now other points in holding status. And the renter should have all the money back.

Yeah. That's fraud. Good luck if your renters or David's decide to sue you. Posting here is pretty much stating your intent to defraud, so you should hope none of the parties follows along here and know your identity. Cancel your reservations now and return the money if you have no intention of honoring them. Anything else is violating your contract and pretty scummy.