DAS Lawsuit - Oral Argument thoughts

[jcb]

If you have followed all my posts and articles about the DAS lawsuit, see https://www.disboards.com/threads/federal-court-rules-for-disney-in-lead-das-autism-lawsuit.3506373/ and https://www.disboards.com/threads/disney-wins-first-das-ada-discrimination-lawsuit.3805252/ (among others), you recall that the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals was scheduled to hold oral argument in the appeal from the District Court's decision dismissing the first of the disability discrimination claims (the others seem to be on hold) pending in Orlando federal court.

The family's lawyer argued first. He didn't get very far before the chief judge (who I knew in college, but don't hold that against him) asked why his brief failed to address one of the three reasons the trial court gave for ruling against his client. The lower court held that the requested accommodation was not reasonable. (Remember, the family argued they needed near immediate access to the attractions). Disney pointed out that the family's brief failed to address whether this finding was clearly erroneous or even wrong. So, it doesn't go well when the chief judge interrupts your argument before you can get out two full sentences and says he thinks this failing requires the court to affirm the lower court's judgment.

Disney's lawyer picked up on the court's comments about not addressing the reasonableness question. The only real questions the court asked of Disney's counsel were technical. Disney wants the court to affirm all three of the grounds the lower court address. Disney wants to head off the numerous other lawsuits attacking DAS under the ADA. I can't blame them but it was pretty clear the court of appeals judges aren't inclined to do this. Courts typically try to rule as narrowly as possible, especially where the appeal is from a district court's ruling after a trial. They did have kind things to say about the district court judge, however.

The family's lawyer had the ability to respond to Disney's arguments. Again, it doesn't bode well when your final argument is asking the court not to rule on all the issues because you hope that you do better in the next trial, assuming there is one. Disney's changes to DAS with Genie+, none of which I have followed, could change whether there needs to be further trials.

If you want to listen to the argument, here is a link to download the file (I hope).

20-12720.mp3

 

[SueM in MN]

Thanks for keeping us up to date.

 

[CampbellzSoup]

I mean they’re still going for it? Wow give them credit for going strong!

 

[SueM in MN]

Listened to it. That was interesting and the plaintiff’s lawyer made me think of a student who didn’t follow the assignment and is arguing for extra credit.

 

[Kbrb]

As a father of a ASD non verbal child im very torn on this whole case. On one hand i feel bad for the family not being able to enjoy the parks. On the other hand i dont feel that auto unlimted ride access isnt a great idea. My Ds cant wait long periods of time in line. for that reason we use the DAS. We then take him around and show him other things, get a drink ect while we wait for the ride time. It seems grossly unfair to just walk past a 2 hour line onto a ride IMO.

I should add im from the UK so im the parent that puts him on a 9 hour flight to another country so im not afraid to try and do things with him. However i do accept limits if i find something is unworkable i will try to expose him till it is. Failing that sometimes you have to accept its just not possible.

If they lose and the DAS becomes auto entry the odd law about not being able to ask for proof would open the system up to wild amounts of abuse.

Sad all round.

 

[jcb]

Listened to it. That was interesting and the plaintiff’s lawyer made me think of a student who didn’t follow the assignment and is arguing for extra credit.

Not following the assignment is definitely a good way to put it. I have had this happen in cases - the other lawyer completely fails to address a point - and I just scratch my head. Sadly, it isn't all that uncommon.

 

[SueM in MN]

As a father of a ASD non verbal child im very torn on this whole case. On one hand i feel bad for the family not being able to enjoy the parks. On the other hand i dont feel that auto unlimted ride access isnt a great idea. My Ds cant wait long periods of time in line. for that reason we use the DAS. We then take him around and show him other things, get a drink ect while we wait for the ride time. It seems grossly unfair to just walk past a 2 hour line onto a ride IMO.

I should add im from the UK so im the parent that puts him on a 9 hour flight to another country so im not afraid to try and do things with him. However i do accept limits if i find something is unworkable i will try to expose him till it is. Failing that sometimes you have to accept its just not possible.

If they lose and the DAS becomes auto entry the odd law about not being able to ask for proof would open the system up to wild amounts of abuse.

Sad all round.

I‘ve read all the depositions and everything that has been posted by jcb on The case. The thing that stood out to me was that the people who sued really didn’t try at all to adapt to the new system. They just said it wouldn’t work without putting even a minimum of effort into trying it out.

 

[DisneyOma]

This has been going on for years, right? I'm betting they have managed to go to the parks just fine by now.

 

[BigFoote]

Not following the assignment is definitely a good way to put it. I have had this happen in cases - the other lawyer completely fails to address a point - and I just scratch my head. Sadly, it isn't all that uncommon.

I worked in state government and sat in meetings with various levels of politicians. In many cases not addressing the issue is their entire mantra.

 

[SorcererHeidi]

I worked in state government and sat in meetings with various levels of politicians. In many cases not addressing the issue is their entire mantra.

Retired 30-year County employee here - a big "AYEP" to your statement. I concur! Sadly.

 

[supergirl04]

As a father of a ASD non verbal child.

I should add im from the UK so im the parent that puts him on a 9 hour flight to another country so im not afraid to try and do things with him.

This might not be the right place for this, and please DM if so. But I have a nonverbal kid with ASD. And I am terrified of putting on a plane to go anywhere. We love Disney and would love to go to Disneyland, but that would require flying. How did you build up to flying for any amount of time?

 

[limace]

There is a board here regarding traveling with disabilities-I bet they folks there would be a great resources for you.

 

[wildekatza]

As a father of a ASD non verbal child im very torn on this whole case. On one hand i feel bad for the family not being able to enjoy the parks. On the other hand i dont feel that auto unlimted ride access isnt a great idea. My Ds cant wait long periods of time in line. for that reason we use the DAS. We then take him around and show him other things, get a drink ect while we wait for the ride time. It seems grossly unfair to just walk past a 2 hour line onto a ride IMO.

I should add im from the UK so im the parent that puts him on a 9 hour flight to another country so im not afraid to try and do things with him. However i do accept limits if i find something is unworkable i will try to expose him till it is. Failing that sometimes you have to accept its just not possible.

If they lose and the DAS becomes auto entry the odd law about not being able to ask for proof would open the system up to wild amounts of abuse.

Sad all round.

I am glad you posted on here. As someone who used to be an Elementary school teacher of the Deaf/HH over 20 years ago, I absolutely love your take on it. Try it! If your child has a hard time adjusting or just can't, then move on/redirect and find something they can be successful at. There is plenty for her son to do that won't require her getting a front of the line pass for everything she wants him to do. I can't imagine that rides conform to the standards that she lay out in the papers though with them all needing to go in a straight line, no impeding. What is her plan when the Pirates boat stalls to unload or just plain stalls? How does she keep him calm on that boat if you get stalled??? Doesn't that work if she has him in line an extra minute? You, as a parent have the right mindset when you aren't forcing your Ds to do things you think will be an issue. What is her plan if a ride she is on breaks down and no one rides so they must reverse course to get out of the line or not ride, a wait is incurred because they are loading from a wheelchair another guest, guest falls on the "treadmill" at haunted mansion and ride is paused a long time with riders stuck mid ride, etc. any of those daily occurrences can affect a child who requires certain parameters in order to enjoy themselves. I see this woman setting her son up for total failure at Disney if he has that many boundaries. I see you, Kbrb trying things as you can with your best judgment as a parent who knows their child and when it doesn't work , you find an alternative, like redirection and either decide to revisit that ride/situation in the future or don't. I feel like she just wants her front of the line pass back. It does make me sad though that people abused this at the parks. I am so disgusted with them for having taken advantage of this. They ruined it for Disney and everyone involved. Jerks.

 

[Kbrb]

This might not be the right place for this, and please DM if so. But I have a nonverbal kid with ASD. And I am terrified of putting on a plane to go anywhere. We love Disney and would love to go to Disneyland, but that would require flying. How did you build up to flying for any amount of time?

No bother at all sent over a message.

I am glad you posted on here.

Thanks very much for the reply. I would also like to add my family and i have always been treated with care and respect by everyone we have meet on our trips to the states. hence we keep coming back.

Sorry for the thread derail btw.

 

[jimmymc]

Not following the assignment is definitely a good way to put it. I have had this happen in cases - the other lawyer completely fails to address a point - and I just scratch my head. Sadly, it isn't all that uncommon.

People seem to forget the reason for appeals. It's not just a retrial.

 

[Narcoossee11]

Only winners in this case is the lawyers . $$$$$$$$$$$