Crazy road rage shooting in Miami last June

[JimMIA]

Why don't they just add speed enforcement cameras? As you said the police officer is risking his/her life everytime they pull some one over there. A needless risk to life.

I don't know much about speed enforcement cameras, but I know red-light cameras have had a very rocky road in South Florida. Only a handful of jurisdictions still use them because they were losing every single case in court.

The problem with speed cameras would seem to be the same as red-light. It's not illegal for a car to speed; it's illegal for a driver to exceed the speed limit. And it's almost impossible to identify a specific person behind the wheel with a camera.

 

[MillauFr]

The problem with speed cameras would seem to be the same as red-light. It's not illegal for a car to speed; it's illegal for a driver to exceed the speed limit. And it's almost impossible to identify a specific person behind the wheel with a camera.

Don't they just get around that by treating the speed enforcement tickets the same way they treat vehicles who are driving without current tabs? They have no way of knowing who was driving a parked car but they will ticket anyway.

 

[JimMIA]

Don't they just get around that by treating the speed enforcement tickets the same way they treat vehicles who are driving without current tabs? They have no way of knowing who was driving a parked car but they will ticket anyway.

No. Speeding and running red lights are moving traffic violations and the legal requirements are different from toll violations (another art form in South Florida) and parking tickets.

 

[MillauFr]

No. Speeding and running red lights are moving traffic violations and the legal requirements are different from toll violations (another art form in South Florida) and parking tickets.

Agreed. I understand in Washington State the video enforcement tickets can't be classified as moving violations for the reasons you have previously mentioned. I just think the video enforcement is a great idea and eliminates several problems; dangers to the police officers, claims of racially biased policing, and rampant lawlessness on our freeways.

 

[JimMIA]

Agreed. I understand in Washington State the video enforcement tickets can't be classified as moving violations for the reasons you have previously mentioned. I just think the video enforcement is a great idea and eliminates several problems; dangers to the police officers, claims of racially biased policing, and rampant lawlessness on our freeways.

Yeah. Laws -- and especially traffic laws -- vary so much from jurisdiction to jurisdiction (even within the same state) that you really can't even discuss them in a forum like this.

Also judicial attitudes vary greatly. The text of the law can say whatever it does, but if judges repeatedly tell prosecutors "Don't bring this kind of case to my courtroom" (and they DO), the law might as well not exist.

Automated systems would help a little with officer safety, and to some degree it would probably help reduce traffic infractions. But it wouldn't reduce claims of profiling. People would still complain that the placement of the devices has an adverse result. We get those complaints now with surveillance cameras and shot-spotters in high crime areas, even though they save lives and solve crimes and are located purely based on solid crime data.

 

[chickapin parterre]

Right.

The cure for tailgating is to simply ease the accelerator pressure to slow down 5 mph. It drives them crazy, but there are no childish brake-checks for them to get mad at. They eventually shift lanes and accelerate quickly, like, "Well...I guess I showed you!"

My experience with tailgaters though is that most of them are not being aggressive or angry. They are just driving well beyond their skill level and haven't learned yet what happens when the car in front of you stops.

interesting observatoon about tailgaters here in senior citizen yuma with crewcab jacked up trucks those old men love to ride on your tail. I am the one in construction zones doing the speed limit to save the lives of the workers....we have one now and folks come barreling up on me, so I just east slower, boy do they spin out when leaving the zone. in another zone where you can touch the cones....I have several folks flip me the bird and honk as they pass into the other lane when clear of zones . so as I am doing the legal limit by myself in the zone, half way thru, i have folks come 40 MPH in 15 mph zone right up on top of me..... wife says I will eventually get shot or pushed over....so many load guns here in Yuma. Tailgaters here in yuma are angry folks....and yes....they love to sit and look at red light intersections.

 

[bcla]

I don't know much about speed enforcement cameras, but I know red-light cameras have had a very rocky road in South Florida. Only a handful of jurisdictions still use them because they were losing every single case in court.

The problem with speed cameras would seem to be the same as red-light. It's not illegal for a car to speed; it's illegal for a driver to exceed the speed limit. And it's almost impossible to identify a specific person behind the wheel with a camera.

They have to be made legal by state law.

The big problem around here was that many cities (don't recall a county that did this in areas where they had jurisdiction over traffic) were set up by private companies that also processed everything as well a got a cut of the fines, and a city may have altered the length of yellow signals to boost the number of vehicles caught. I think some of the contractors were even threatening to take them out if they didn't make enough money off of them. That was a really perverse way of doing business since I thought the rationale was to encourage drivers not to run red lights rather than as a revenue stream.

However, I've seen these things at work. Many think that the traffic cams that they see on signal posts (often over the intersection) might be red light cameras, but they're not. Every one I've seen is massive and includes a flash. There is no mistaking when one encounters one because they have a clear flash that's noticeable in full daylight.

In California there's a fairly new law that requires that there be a warning from at least 200 feet away.

 

[JimMIA]

interesting observatoon about tailgaters here in senior citizen yuma with crewcab jacked up trucks those old men love to ride on your tail. I am the one in construction zones doing the speed limit to save the lives of the workers....we have one now and folks come barreling up on me, so I just east slower, boy do they spin out when leaving the zone. in another zone where you can touch the cones....I have several folks flip me the bird and honk as they pass into the other lane when clear of zones . so as I am doing the legal limit by myself in the zone, half way thru, i have folks come 40 MPH in 15 mph zone right up on top of me..... wife says I will eventually get shot or pushed over....so many load guns here in Yuma. Tailgaters here in yuma are angry folks....and yes....they love to sit and look at red light intersections.

I don't get those flip-offs, but that may because of my license tag and PBA shield, LOL. If I did get one, I'd just interpret it as "You're #1!" I got over being cussed out and flipped off quite a while back.

 

[kdonnel]

I don't like automated fines because it effectively is the privatization of policing. At least here the cameras partner with a company that takes a significant portion of the fine and employees one or more officers to "officially" review the footage.

The end result are news stories where the police department is touting how effective it is by how much revenue was brought in each month.

It is not talked about from a safety perspective, just revenue.

Generating revenue should not be something a police department is focused on as a goal.

 

[JimMIA]

They have to be made legal by state law.

Uh...well yeah!

The big problem around here was that many cities (don't recall a county that did this in areas where they had jurisdiction over traffic) were set up by private companies that also processed everything as well a got a cut of the fines, and a city may have altered the length of yellow signals to boost the number of vehicles caught.

We had that too, although I haven't heard about any yellow-light modifications.

Funny, irrelevant, off-topic can't-make-this-stuff-up story.
One of our politicians ran for mayor promising red-light cameras for "traffic safety." He got elected and pitched it to county administrators as a revenue source -- drawing opposition from prosecutors, eye-rolls from police, and resistance from many directions. So he formed a committee to study the matter, upon which DW reluctantly served.

The committee's research clearly proved that red-light cameras would be an net expense, not a revenue stream, and the idea was abandoned.

When he ran for reelection, he ran as the mayor who stood up for the taxpayers and stopped his own brainfart of red-light cameras. He was reelected, of course.

 

[bcla]

I don't like automated fines because it effectively is the privatization of policing. At least here the cameras partner with a company that takes a significant portion of the fine and employees one or more officers to "officially" review the footage.

The end result are news stories where the police department is touting how effective it is by how much revenue was brought in each month.

It is not talked about from a safety perspective, just revenue.

Generating revenue should not be something a police department is focused on as a goal.

I've gotten on traffic ticket in my entire life (more than 30 years go driving) and that ticket didn't stick because the officer who issued it didn't show up in traffic court.

However, I asked what the fine was and the officer claimed that he didn't know and that revenue was not the reason why they issue tickets. But I've read articles where officers were interviewed where they say they're instructed to say they don't know the fine when they actually know it by heart. And yes it's about maximizing revenue for many officers.

It was also really bizarre with this small specialty (school district) police department near Sacramento. I discussed this with tvguy who was quite familiar with it. They not only did a lot of call jumping on local regular law enforcement calls, but they were issuing traffic and parking tickets (with their own very expensive fines) well off of school district property. They were clearly looking at it as a revenue stream to pay for their department's operations.

 

[bcla]

Uh...well yeah!We had that too, although I haven't heard about any yellow-light modifications.

Funny, irrelevant, off-topic can't-make-this-stuff-up story.
One of our politicians ran for mayor promising red-light cameras for "traffic safety." He got elected and pitched it to county administrators as a revenue source -- drawing opposition from prosecutors, eye-rolls from police, and resistance from many directions. So he formed a committee to study the matter, upon which DW reluctantly served.

The committee's research clearly proved that red-light cameras would be an net expense, not a revenue stream, and the idea was abandoned.

When he ran for reelection, he ran as the mayor who stood up for the taxpayers and stopped his own brainfart of red-light cameras. He was reelected, of course.

Sounds about right for a politician.

But it's been pretty prevalent around the San Francisco Peninsula in parts of San Mateo and Santa Clara Counties. The city of San Carlos ditched red light cameras over a decade ago because they started losing money on it when the yellow was restored to the legally required time. Another city ditched them a couple of years ago for the same reason.

https://padailypost.com/2019/07/12/...-program-will-dismiss-or-refund-1000-tickets/​

After 14 years, San Mateo is pulling the plug on its controversial red-light cameras after it was discovered that a yellow light was too short, an error that is forcing the city to refund or dismiss nearly 1,000 tickets, officials said Thursday.​

​

The city is also dumping the cameras because the cameras are no longer stopping motorists from running the red light, according to City Manager Drew Corbett.​

​

In May, it was discovered there was a problem with the yellow light timing at southbound Saratoga Drive and East Hillsdale Boulevard. The timing of the yellow light was altered because of a construction project that required changes to the stoplight. However, because of the change, the yellow light was 0.2 seconds too short from Dec. 4 to May 20, which meant that drivers weren’t given enough time to stop for the red light.​

​

As a result of the error, the city will be dismissing or refunding the 985 tickets that were issued between Dec. 4 and May 20.​

​

This isn’t the first time the yellow light on a San Mateo red-light camera was set too short.​

​

In 2009, the Post used video equipment to determine that the yellow lights at Hillsdale and Saratoga were set too short. Police and the Public Works Department denied the report.​

​

Then in 2015, NBC Bay Area timed the lights at the Saratoga-Hillsdale and Norfolk Street-Hillsdale intersections and also discovered the yellow light was too short.​

​

This time, instead of denying the report, the city threw out 948 tickets and re-set the yellow lights.​

 

[JimMIA]

However, I asked what the fine was and the officer claimed that he didn't know and that revenue was not the reason why they issue tickets. But I've read articles where officers were interviewed where they say they're instructed to say they don't know the fine when they actually know it by heart. And yes it's about maximizing revenue for many officers.

Well, first of all, we have to realize that a lot of people say (or claim to have heard "people say") lots and lots of things. And some of them are true.

I can only speak locally, but in 25 years I was never once encouraged to write a traffic ticket except in situations where we had very rare traffic enforcement assignments. Those assignments (I think I had 3 in 5 years of patrol work and zero in 3 years as a patrol sergeant) were usually where citizens had complained about speed in a specific spot. One of them was a complaint from a school PTA, and of course just about everybody we stopped was a parent at that school. I'm sure that PTA caught hell!

Also, the distribution of traffic fine proceeds are usually set by state law and in Florida only a tiny fraction of fine revenue goes to the police department which wrote the ticket. I'm not sure what that tiny amount is today, but when I was there it was only $2.00 per ticket -- AND the uses of that money were tightly restricted, with zero going to anyone connected with issuing the citation. The "second dollar," for example, could only be used for state-authorized training programs. So, in Florida at least, traffic tickets are not a revenue source for police or sheriffs departments.

Everything is different in CA, so YMMV.

 

[bcla]

Well, first of all, we have to realize that a lot of people say (or claim to have heard "people say") lots and lots of things. And some of them are true.

I can only speak locally, but in 25 years I was never once encouraged to write a traffic ticket except in situations where we had very rare traffic enforcement assignments. Those assignments (I think I had 3 in 5 years of patrol work and zero in 3 years as a patrol sergeant) were usually where citizens had complained about speed in a specific spot. One of them was a complaint from a school PTA, and of course just about everybody we stopped was a parent at that school. I'm sure that PTA caught hell!

Also, the distribution of traffic fine proceeds are usually set by state law and in Florida only a tiny fraction of fine revenue goes to the police department which wrote the ticket. I'm not sure what that tiny amount is today, but when I was there it was only $2.00 per ticket -- AND the uses of that money were tightly restricted, with zero going to anyone connected with issuing the citation. The "second dollar," for example, could only be used for state-authorized training programs. So, in Florida at least, traffic tickets are not a revenue source for police or sheriffs departments.

Everything is different in CA, so YMMV.

Depends on the funding. But motorcycle officers in San Francisco were clearly devoted to primarily looking for traffic violations back then.

I was at some event where there was a California Highway Patrol officer with his BMW and I commented on how our tax dollars werepaying for it. He said that ticket revenue and taxes didn't pay for their budget. It's nearly all from vehicle registrations fees. Their citation revenue goes solely to the state general fund, minus court fees.

 

[JimMIA]

Depends on the funding. But motorcycle officers in San Francisco were clearly devoted to primarily looking for traffic violations back then.

Right. Traffic control is about the only reason for motors -- and enforcement is part of that. But motors are usually a very small component of a police department. We had 5,000+ employees and less than a dozen motors.

 

[MillauFr]

People of all stripes want the laws enforced unless they are the laws that they break on a daily basis. Then they want the police to look the other way and complain the police should go after the real criminals. 40,000 people in the United States die every year because we are unwilling to enforce traffic laws that could easily cut this number in half.

 

[bcla]

Right. Traffic control is about the only reason for motors -- and enforcement is part of that. But motors are usually a very small component of a police department. We had 5,000+ employees and less than a dozen motors.

Well - I will say that it's really weird being stopped by a Harley. Those are loud as heck and impossible to miss when they start accelerating. But I've only been pulled over by a motorcycle officer twice. One for allegedly running a red and the other because I hadn't applied my registration sticker, which I had and could show in my wallet.

Heck - there was some controversy over a local department asking to spend $500 per Harley to make them louder like how most private owners modify them. But I see a lot around here. A smallish agency around here with 200 officers might have about a dozen motorcycles.