Court Rules on Disneyland Segway Lawsuit

[Justin Jett]

Who is making fun of "these people"?

I don't see it

We are not pricking them.

We are not making them bleed.

We are just telling them to leave their RECREATIONAL vehicles outside the parks.

 

[disneyholic family]

my son in law broke his back (or rather his back was broken when he fell off a 50 foot cliff and the vehicle he was on fell on top of him), but in a complete miracle he is able to walk (it was not clear at the time of the accident - the surgeon didn't know for sure until he got to his spinal cord during the 25 hour surgery to save his life)....

however, he has the problem of not being able to stand, sit or walk for long periods..
but the segway wouldn't help him either....that's a form of standing...

he visited WDW for the first time last august (together with his wife- DD, and me, DH, DS, and DDIL).....
he managed the first day in the parks, but at about 11:00 am on the second day he couldn't bear the pain anymore and had to go back to the resort and lie down (on his specially made mattress that he has to carry with him on the plane - without that he can't lie down either)..

the next day we rented him a wheelchair, but he couldn't manage that for more than a short time - too painful to sit in that wheelchair for too long...
so the next day we rented an ECV...that was a little better, but only for a few hours....when it also was too painful for him..

but certainly a segway wouldn't have helped anything...that requires standing, and he can't do that for long periods either...

so he has to do disney in short intervals, walking slowly, sitting down to rest, then walking a little more.....and mixed with lots of resting in bed back at the resort....he still loved being there....so much so in fact that he and DD will be back there in a week!!

 

[jcb]

I try to stay out of it, too.

On this, I agree with Skip, and with many others. Riding a Segway is a want, not a need. There are so many other options for people who can't walk the whole distance at Disney.

DS can't do many of the rides because they require transferring. Oh, well. So we just do something else, instead. DH may complain a bit, but I choose which battles I want to fight. And take attitude 'That's life. Deal with it.'

When I hear people I respect who have to deal with severe impairments/disabilities on a daily, even minute by minute, basis say this, what comes to mind starts with the fundamental truth that we all have limitations to some degree. My step-son has started running up mountain trails. I couldn't do that, even when I was his age. We all must make compromises based upon our limitations. Similarly, the issue here, according to the ADA, is what compromises are reasonable.

If a person's limitations are significant, the ADA says that individuals with disabilities can expect another person to make "reasonable modifications" to policies "when such modifications are necessary" to afford services or facilities to individuals with disabilities.

Disney has always been willing to make reasonable modifications to their existing policies. As Skip has said many times, Disney goes far beyond what many other businesses and theme parks do and well beyond what the ADA requires.

As part of the Segway settlement, Disney agreed to "develop a new, four-wheeled, electric stand-up vehicle (“ESV”) (schematics below) for use at its resorts by persons meeting the settlement class definition."

Disney will develop at least 15 ESVs (saying it would make more if demand required). And while the settlement lets Disney rent these devices for a daily fee (the same fee it charges for an ECV), in its brief to the federal court of appeals reviewing the class settlement, Disney promised "to use its discretion about waiving the rental fee in particular circumstances (such as when qualified guests bring their own Segway)."

So for those who say Disney or anyone else's position is "The hell with them" or, as the court of appeals grossly mischaracterized Disney's argument, "any discomfort or difficulty she may suffer [from having to sit in an ECV] is too darn bad," what I'd like to know is what is so unreasonable about Disney's solution for people who need to stand instead of sit?

Remember, the issue is not whether Disney's proposal is "perfect;" the ADA does not require "perfect" solutions or even the solution that the individual with a disability desires.

 

[WaltD4Me]

Not being an expert on either Segways or accommodating guests with disabilities and in light of Disney's stellar reputation in providing for guests with disabilities, I have to believe that Disney's stance on the Segway issue is based on the best interests and safety of all their guests. I'm very sure they are not being discriminatory or even just being difficult. I side with Disney on this not because I am a "fan boy" but because I am confident they could and would do anything possible to make their parks accessible and comfortable for everyone. If they have concerns strong enough about Segways to fight the issue in court, then I have no doubt those concerns are entirely reasonable and valid.

And I have no idea where it came from, but to say that anyone here and especially Kevin is making fun of anyone with a disability in this discussion is beyond ridiculous.

 

[SueM in MN]

..............
As a disabled person who knows how hard it is to obtain medical mobility devices, I have a very hard time with people claiming that an off the shelf Segway is a medical mobility device, and accusing Disney of an ADA violation.

Page 112 of the Segway Getting Started Manual states:

The Segway PT has not been designed, tested or approved as a medical device. You must be able to step on and off the Segway PT unassisted, which requires physical abilities similar to ascending and descending stairs without assistance, and without holding the handrail.

Here is a link to the manual: http://www.segway.com/downloads/pdfs/Getting_Started_Manual.pdf

Please look at Page 112!! This is not perception! This is fact! The link proves it.

I am not against new technology for people with disabilities. There are some things that were designed for people without disabilities that are extremely usable by people with disabilities. The iPhone, iPod touch and iPad are wonderful examples; many people with disabilities are using them in place of dedicated (and very expensive) communication devices.
But, substituting an iPad for some other, more expensive dedicated device is does not have the potential to hurt anyone.

Power wheelchairs, ECVs and other devices designed for use by people with disabilities have safeguards to stop them quickly and safely - they basically have brakes that are on unless the user is doing something to make the device go.
With an ECV, if you let go of the throttle, it stops.
With a power wheelchair, let go of the joystick, it stops. Because they have 3 wheels or more, they are stable and can stand by themselves (as opposed to a Segway, which has 2 wheels and is kind of in a “permanent wheelie” situation while it is being operated).
The iBot wheelchair worked the same way, but to get FDA approval as a medical device, it also had to prove that when it was operating on 2 wheels, it would automatically and safely stop and come down to a stable position, with all wheels on the ground.

When I first heard about the Segway, heard that it was ‘self-balancing’ so the user did not have to balance, I could see some uses for people with disabilities.
I lurked on some forums for people with disabilities who were using Segways where people said it was wonderful for them because even though they did not have the ability to balance, the Segway “did it for them.”
Many of the people posting on those forums did not have the basic physical abilities that are in the part of the Segway manual that Justin Jett quoted and were trading tips about how to get on and off a Segway without the balance or ability to lift a foot up on the Segway platform.

A quick internet search or a search of youtube brings up many examples of people who are using various devices to get onto the Segway because they don’t have the ability to get on/off by themselves. There are videos of people who require help from one or more people to get on and off, people who use straps or bars attached to the wall or roof racks on their car to pull themselves on and lower themselves off or people using a strap under a foot to pull it up since they can’t step up with it.
(I have noticed that most of those videos disappear after someone posts a link to them - so I’m not posting any links.)

I can understand why someone who walks with difficulty or has poor balance from conditions like a stroke, MS or other conditions would want to use a Segway. Even as an able bodied person, there is something almost magical and freeing about gliding pretty effortlessly around on a Segway.
I can understand that someone who has difficulty moving would want that feeling. I remember the joy in my daughter’s face the first time she “ran” in her power wheelchair. To do something she was not otherwise able to do, to move much faster than her muscles will allow her to move. I don’t begrudge anyone that joy, but safety is more important than joy.
My son-in-law has MS, so when I first heard about Segways, I was looking at them as a possible eventual mobility device if he needed one.
But, then I actually took the Epcot Segway tour - I don’t claim to be an expert or even have that much experience after taking the tour 4 times.
But, it was enough to know that the Segway only balances within certain limits, as the manual says on page 57:

Avoiding Tips
The Segway PT balances front to back but not side-to-side.
You are responsible for maintaining side-to-side balance by leaning into turns. If you fail to actively maintain this side-to-side balance, the Segway PT can tip sideways and fall.

And even with it balancing front to back, there are many ways to get in trouble discussed in the manual. In fact, one of the biggest problems I can see with the Segway being used as a mobility device is that it is not stable. No matter what you say about it, it is a single set of wheels - kind of a high tech unicycle.

The manual is full of all sorts of warnings like this from page 2:

WARNING!
RISK OF DEATH OR SERIOUS INJURY
Whenever you ride the Segway PT, you risk death or serious injury from loss of control, collisions, and falls. To reduce risk of injury, you must read and follow all instructions and warnings in the User Materials.

The manual also warns on page 43,

You have approximately 10 seconds from the start of a Safety Shutdown to come to a controlled stop and step off. After 10 seconds, the Segway PT will immediately shut down when the Wheels reach zero speed.
If a Safety Shutdown occurs:
1. Immediately come to a controlled stop.
2. Carefully step off one foot at a time.

This is one of the reasons a rider needs to be able to get on and off without assistance and why the Segway is not a safe mobility device for some people with disabilities.
There are also warnings about environmental dangers, like this warning on page 45 of the manual,


WARNING!
Theft detection systems, such as the type used in some libraries and retail stores can interfere with the Segway PT’s ability to balance and/or cause the Segway PT to perform a Safety Shutdown. Do not ride within 5 feet (1.5 meters) of any theft detection system.

One of the Segway’s safety features is described on pages 48 and 49 (I’m just quoting the short part on page 48:

The Segway PT has four sensors located beneath the Mats. Rider Detect Sensors detect the presence or absence of a rider while the Segway PT is powered on.

and on page 50:

WARNING!
Never place anything on the Mats, except your feet. Doing so could interfere with the Rider Detection system and allow the Segway PT to travel on its own, risking running into a person or property, and causing injury or damage.

Someone mentioned on this thread that some people have added seats to Segways to make a Segway wheelchair. The ones I have seen on the internet add something over the mats to activate all 4 sensors and bypass the safety mechanism.
I wonder if the people who allowed them to be written into the ADA as Other Power Driven Mobility Devices or those professionals who are suggesting them to patients who can't step on and off unaided have read the manual?

I know there are people who are using Segways as mobility devices, and (my personal opinion) I think for those who have the ability “to step on and off the Segway PT unassisted, which requires physical abilities similar to ascending and descending stairs without assistance, and without holding the handrail,” they may be a safe device in some circumstances.
I can see them safely operating in zoos or outdoor parks, possibly stores or shopping centers (except for needing to avoid those pesky security theft security systems.)
But, not WDW - it’s too busy, too full of children and people who are already wandering into the paths of other guests because they are busy looking around. There are other, safer devices, including the one that was already pictured on this thread. Maybe not as sleek or envy inducing as a Segway, but safer.

One argument in favor of allowing Segways was that only people with their own Segways would be coming to the parks. But, once upon a time, only people with their own ECVs used them in the parks. Then companies from outside started renting them. I have no doubt (my opinion) that the same thing would happen with Segways. And, since all it would take to use it would be an assertion on the part of the user that they had a disability and were using it as a mobility device, that would be it.

 

[DisneyKevin]

Sue....this is awesome!

You explained the point I was trying to make with such craft, that I have no words.

Thank you.

 

[SueM in MN]

Sue....this is awesome!

You explained the point I was trying to make with such craft, that I have no words.

Thank you.

Thank you

 

[disneyholic family]

Thank you

children of a friend of mine own a segway tour company here...
one of them told me that segways are far from being safe vehicles....
he said falling off for various reasons is a real problem - sometimes resulting in broken arms (or worse).....
he said that there are serious safety issues for those on the ground (pedestrians), but in his opinion even moreso for those riding it....
even during the very controlled use of them (like a tour), there are issues, but in an uncontrolled situation, it would of course be much worse...

 

[SueM in MN]

children of a friend of mine own a segway tour company here...
one of them told me that segways are far from being safe vehicles....
he said falling off for various reasons is a real problem - sometimes resulting in broken arms (or worse).....
he said that there are serious safety issues for those on the ground (pedestrians), but in his opinion even moreso for those riding it....
even during the very controlled use of them (like a tour), there are issues, but in an uncontrolled situation, it would of course be much worse...

I agree.
There are warnings on probably 1/3 of the pages of the manual ( at least it seems like it) and the safety warnings do say to always wear a helmet.
Not the things most people want from a mobility device.

 

[disneyholic family]

I agree.
There are warnings on probably 1/3 of the pages of the manual ( at least it seems like it) and the safety warnings do say to always wear a helmet.
Not the things most people want from a mobility device.

he was explaining to me how they can just turn themselves off (for various reasons) and when that happens, they just fall over - plop....the self balancing stops...
and if you're on it at the time and not terribly nimble about hopping off, you can be hurt...he can't imagine a disabled person being able to deal with those problems...

 

[SueM in MN]

he was explaining to me how they can just turn themselves off (for various reasons) and when that happens, they just fall over - plop....the self balancing stops...
and if you're on it at the time and not terribly nimble about hopping off, you can be hurt...he can't imagine a disabled person being able to deal with those problems...

Yes.
And, if you let go of it and fall or jump off, it will continue going or a while all by itself before it falls over.

 

[disneyholic family]

Yes.
And, if you let go of it and fall or jump off, it will continue going or a while all by itself before it falls over.

segway must have to pay a fortune for liability insurance!!!!!

 

[kgibbler20]

Yes.
And, if you let go of it and fall or jump off, it will continue going or a while all by itself before it falls over.

I saw a woman on one of my Epcot Segway tours catch her tire on the rocks around the coy pond in Japan, and that Segway flew up in the air and over her as she was thrown to the ground.

Now, be the person who is walking by and have a Segway land on your head.

The fact is even just walking it's far too easy to have an issue in a crowded park let alone adding Segways to the mix.

 

[k5jm]

Skip, you can ride them on the beach with lanes! (Do you notice the lanes?)

 

[Justin Jett]

Skip, you can ride them on the beach with lanes! (Do you notice the lanes?)

Mr. Holland, sir.

Life can be a beach sometimes!

 

[Sarabi's Cubs]

One of the things I love most about the Dis is that it opens my eyes to issues I might not otherwise be aware of. So thanks Jack, Skip, Kevin, Sue and others for your well thought out comments and links to the court opinions.

Laurie

 

[*NikkiBell*]

One of the things I love most about the Dis is that it opens my eyes to issues I might not otherwise be aware of. So thanks Jack, Skip, Kevin, Sue and others for your well thought out comments and links to the court opinions.

Laurie

 

[FireDancer]

Let us not forget that the owner of Segway Inc, Jimi Heselden, died when he managed to drive one of them off of a cliff...on his own property...when no one else was around. I don't trust the average Joe with one in a crowded theme park that has kids running around walkways and tourists with their noses buried in park maps. I don't blame Disney banning them for one second because when the inevitable happens and some rider on a Segway runs over a kid it will be Disney who gets sued.

 

[darrengs]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3938268...d-serious-injuries-experts-warn/#.UBgveqPkMig

"People hurt on the self-balancing devices are more likely to be admitted to the hospital, particularly with traumatic head and face injuries, than pedestrians struck by cars, said Dr. Mary Pat McKay, a professor of emergency medicine and public health at the George Washington University."