Could this actually happen (possible debate)

[noodleknitter]

No theoretically about it. I know there is no way I could live in some states if things were to change on that scale.

I agree. It's funny, but I changed my position on this issue (I origianally thought it impossible), based on that one possibility.

That would be creepy. I am glad that it is highly unlikely that the states would be given that sort of power.

 

[eclectics]

Although it's certainly possible, I think it's highly unlikely. Most of the tension and feeling of division in this country is simply because there is only one party in charge at the moment. I don't mean to be political, it's just an observation on my part. If you look through our history there seems to be this ebbing and flowing of the powers that be with usually a somewhat equal sharing. One party has the White House, the other the Senate etc. It's unusual that one party has the power to call all the shots, at least for an extended period of time. Once this changes, I think things will settle down, until it happens again. The Republicans became firmly entrenched in the 1950's after all those FDR years. Administrations change, new laws get passed, some get repealed, even the Supreme Court will inevitably get all new blood eventually. Things will always evolve in this country and things also can have a way of coming full circle. We are able to please all the people, just not at the same time . As always, just imho.

 

[MrsNick]

It won't happen. Take the red/blue issue. Big cities are blue and the burbs are red. Would you have a country of just the big cities and one of the burbs. The big cities need the burbs to pay money to them and the burbs need the big city for museums etc.

Umm, where we live, it is in fact the economic machine of the big cities and their tax revenue which subsidizes the suburbs and even the rest of the state. NYC, for example, basically supports the infrastructure for all of upstate NY. In addition, NYC revenues subsidize the commuter rail lines percentage-wise more so than do the suburbs, and in fact, in terms of percent, the suburban commuter lines receive more than does the NYC subway.

In addition, for every $63 of federal tax revenue that the people of the metro NYC area (NYC + suburbs in NY state, CT. and NJ), we only get $1 back from Uncle Sam to put towards infrastructure. So, the tax money from the blue states subsidizes the infrastructure for the red states. Subsequently, the blue states have higher taxes of every kind (state income tax, property tax, sales tax, etc.) while the red states are able to have lower taxes.

Lets be honest, at least in the Northeast, it's the big cities and their surrounding areas that are paying the bills.

 

[CapeCodTenor]

Finally, lunch time. This statement by marybet really surprised me, here's what she said:

I am a yankee living in Alabama. When I first moved here I was very surprised at the way some people still think about the Civil War. There are groups that still call it The War of Northern Aggression. There are confederate groups that still fly the stars and bars, which offends a lot of people. They celebrate Jefferson Davis's birthday. And although they probably don't want a return of slavery, they still think that blacks should "know their place".

This really surprised me, don't know why, but it did. I guess I hold an optimistic view of things. If I one issue to choose from that would tear this country apart, it would be this issue. But, I think it would take a lot to get to that point, and even then I don't think it could happen.

As for the political thing, LuvDuke mentions this:

There's no common ground anymore and none is sought because that's seen as weakness. When was the last time you saw someone on one side of the political aisle reach over to someone on the other side of the poltical aisle? It doesn't happen anymore and it won't happen unless there's a change and that has to start from the American people who have a deepening divide splitting the country.

I agree in that you don't get the cross-isle agreements (the word I'm looking for has slipped my mind) anymore. However, I think that when it comes down to it, people on both sides of the isle would reach across and work together before allowing anything to happen. And you're right, it's the people that need to start this. Once the people start working together on things then the pols would too.

Great responses everyone. Well, back to work...talk to everyone later.

 

[CapeCodTenor]

Btw, great thread CapeCodTenor!

Thanks LuvDuke, I do try once in a while...don't always succeed, but I do try.

 

[dcentity2000]

It's a possibility, but I don't see it happening any time soon as the divides are relatively very small.



Rich::

 

[mickeyfan2]

Lets be honest, at least in the Northeast, it's the big cities and their surrounding areas that are paying the bills.

I was and this is your opinion but not mine. CT does pay way more money out than they get back from Uncle Sam (a burb), but NYC only getting back 1%, sorry that is so far off. Please show me a link to back up your fact.

I am not speaking just about NYC but many cities and not all have to be this big.

 

[MrVisible]

I don't see any splits happening in a dramatic, political, ideology-based way. But I do see economic splits in the future, and the political splits following.

If the economy tanks due to the enormous debt and the trade imbalance (and the energy crisis, the housing market bust, etcetera...), then the government will be in a considerably weakened position, and ready to lap up corporate assistance of all sorts. I can see corporations buying up land in outlying territories, and buying the rights to run that land as they choose; exemptions to minimum wage laws, EPA regulations and so on. Gradually these corporate enclaves will become independent political entities, sovereign or not.

Our government is already in the back pockets of huge multinational corporations. How long will it really be before they decide that governments are redundant?

And yes, I'm a big fan of Neal Stephenson's Snowcrash and Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars series.

 

[cardaway]

This really surprised me, don't know why, but it did. I guess I hold an optimistic view of things. If I one issue to choose from that would tear this country apart, it would be this issue. But, I think it would take a lot to get to that point, and even then I don't think it could happen.

I guess I'm surprised people are so surprised.

It's not like any state got to vote on the issue. If states started taking control again the first thing I see changing from state to state is civil rights issues. As people have pointed out on other threads, look no further than the voting results in states that did get to vote on minority issues.

 

[Beca]

Either the Boston Herald, or you published a typo. The book is actually called "The Untied States of America", not the UNITED States. My dh owns the book and has read it....he says it is a wonderful book, that has really made him think...not only about the state of the country, but about where we put and keep our money.

The thing to remember is that the author is a VERY respected scholar...not an alarmist. His theories are based on factual trends, and incorporate more than an actual "fracturing" of the US in a geographical sense....he also speaks of fracturing in a metaphorical and biological sense as well.

I have not read the book myself, but dh and I have had LONG discussions over the theories espoused in the book. I strongly recommend that if anyone has any interest in these scenarios, that they read the book....it certainly makes you think.



Beca

 

[jocon]

First of all, congrats to everyone for keeping this great thread civil!

I see a trend in some of the posts which seem to hint that the south still has
a problem with what civil rights should be.

I've heard that the North actually has the same problems, but the south has the history which supports perpetuating the opinion.

Some even say that race relations are better in the South.

What are your thoughts?

P.S. I also have seen data which supports the statement that blue states send more $$ to Washington than the red states.

 

[cardaway]

I see a trend in some of the posts which seem to hint that the south still has
a problem with what civil rights should be.

I've heard that the North actually has the same problems, but the south has the history which supports perpetuating the opinion.

Some even say that race relations are better in the South.

What are your thoughts?

If my posts read like I was only thinking of the South then it wasn't what I intended. I'm also thinking about Idaho, Utah, and North Dakota just to name a few.

 

[mickeyfan2]

P.S. I also have seen data which supports the statement that blue states send more $$ to Washington than the red states.

I was not talking about states but about cities and the surrounding state it is in.

 

[bbangel]

Some people mentioned Quebec wanting to separate and leave Canada. Things there have calmed down, although the province still has a separatist government. The provinces that are more likely to leave are Alberta and BC (with the possibility that Saskatchewan will tag along.) It has to do with economics more than anything. The western provinces generate the money and don't see enough coming back from the heavily biased eastern run governments. The majority of people live in the east and so have more political control.
I could see similar issues developing the same situation in the States. People band together because it makes economic and political sense. When things start to go wrong, there are strong forces that pull people apart. You just have to look at some of the situations in Europe to know that it can happen. Will it happen soon, probably not, but it is always possible. And it isn't always a bad thing.

 

[CapeCodTenor]

Either the Boston Herald, or you published a typo. The book is actually called "The Untied States of America",
Beca

You are correct, I do apologize for that type...thanks for catching it.

 

[HaleyB]

How would splinter states protect themselves? Or do you mean a flip in powers, more than a break off? Who gets the Navy?

I think logistics will prevent this, not the people of the US pulling together in times of crisis.

Also as another Northerner living in the South I do see a great divide. I am offended by the State pledge in Texas, .

My son studied the Civil War (or the War of the Norths aggression) this year in school and I found myself filling in a lot of gaps. I was really shocked at what they were and were not teaching him. They did not even tell him what Sam Houston did when the South wrote asking Texas to join on their side of the war. (He burned the letter and said it was treason).

Fed $ spent per $ of tax by state

ETA: I have to run and did not research that link at all, but it has always been well known that some states pay and some states get Fed Tax $.

 

[dcentity2000]

Actually, a thought just struck me:

Devolution!

It's already happening over here in the UK - Wales, Ireland, Scotland and so on are gaining powers independent of Westminster. They're gaining more autonomy and whilst all this doesn't (yet) equate to seceding, it's a step towards it.

ps. I'd also like to state that this thread wins



Rich::

 

[mickeyfan2]

How would splinter states protect themselves? Or do you mean a flip in powers, more than a break off? Who gets the Navy?

I DO!!!!

 

[CapeCodTenor]

I guess I'm surprised people are so surprised.

I hope you don't think that I believe racism doesn't exist, 'cause it does. I've always believed that racism exists...I just didn't think that there were groups that still thought that blacks 'should know their place', that's just wrong.

 

[WIcruizer]

I'll go out a limb and guarantee there will be a major shake-up in our current structure as a country. It's so easy to forget that the Civil War was not very long ago, nor was the Revolution. We are a very young country. It is naive to think evrything will more or less stay the same forever.

The only question is WHEN, HOW, and WHY-not IF. I believe history repeats itself. Taxation without representation. Eventually, people who live in rural states (north AND south) will be taxed to the point of revolt. The tax dollars flowing from MT, ND, SD, KS, NE, AL, MS, etc, etc into NY, CA, etc. will eventually be too much for people to take. We have created a huge underclass in this country, dependent on the federal goverment. And that class continues to grow.

This is way beyond a red/blue issue. It is a major socio-economic shift in this country and eventually something has to give.