Commerical Use Policy Update - New Thread!

[Sandisw]

Right.

So it’s on each member to decide what a pattern is.

It doesn’t ‘have to be’ 20+ reservations. That is just a line in the sand that once you cross, you “should be” investigated.

DVC is free to investigate and ultimately put a halt to any members pattern of rental activity.

If that is how you choose to interpret the 2011 policy,then that is how you should interpret it.

I’m simply reporting what DVC has actually told me and what is actually written.

Based on all of that, my position has not changed in terms of what I am and am not allowed to do.

I have said many times DVC can investigate yone they want at any time…but they can’t violate their own policies and rules.

 

[Tatebeck]

They definitely confirmed that there is no rule to say you can only rent to family and friends, which some have felt MS scripts meant.

They also confirmed that any policy changes will be communicated with owners.

And, we now know that the terms of the POS in reference to patterns is still the focus.

What I can say, after all the back and forth, the big takeaway is that the 2011 policy is what is the offical definition of what constitutes commercial…the pattern.. and that no other documents or definitions exist at this time.

Obviously, that can change but right now, things are status quo in terms of rules, policy and enforcement.

The bit about communicating with owners with the policy change is really the only semi-interesting bit to me. Everything else sounds the same as it did before to my ears. So nothing has changed for my interpretation(s) personally

Did DVC contact owners in 2011 when they updated it from the 2008 policy? I feel like we would have heard about it if they did. I wasn't an owner then so I cannot say myself.

If they didn't, then maybe by "determine at that time how to best communicate the changes or updates to DVC members" they may sneakily mean change the policy and then wait for a member to request it per POS documents. If that is what they did before in 2011 of course. They definitely worded it carefully without saying that they would for sure actually announce when/if it changes. Just that they don't know and will decide what they will do later

Patterns were always the focus, as mentioned in both the POS and the Multiple Reservation Rule so no surprise there

For the other friends/families only part, some people were taking the conflicting words of front line chat CMs over the rules in the POS, which I would not recommend

 

[xdan0920]

I’m simply reporting what DVC has actually told me and what is actually written.

And yet you still have not provided a shred of evidence that you must be over 20 reservations for enforcement to start.

And yes I have reached out to MS multiple times. And every time I am told the same thing. There is no magic number you have to reach.

Edit to add the document I have been sent more then once.

https://cdn1.parksmedia.wdprapps.disney.com/media/dvc/DVC-Terms-and-Conditions-2025-5-15-25.pdf

 

[Sandisw]

The bit about communicating with owners with the policy change is really the only semi-interesting bit to me. Did DVC contact owners in 2011 when they updated it from the 2008 policy? I feel like we would have heard about it if they did. I wasn't an owner then so I cannot say myself.

If they didn't, then maybe by "determine at that time how to best communicate the changes or updates to DVC members" they may sneakily mean change the policy and then wait for a member to request it per POS documents. If that's what they did before

For the other part, some people were taking the conflicting words of front line chat CMs over the rules in the POS, which I would not recommend

That is why I said that the communication could be simply adding it to the website or even requiring owners to request the policy was updated.

The key for me is that things that are rule changes that would be in addition to the written
policy will be included in documents.

They have currently adopted an official policy and as long as that exists, owners can use to guide them to make decisions.

Everything that has been allowed since 2011 is still allowed to be done.

It will be interesting to see if more is coming but based on all that has been given to me, I won’t be surprised to see rule changes, but rather that they actually enforce things and don’t let owners have more than 20 unless they feel confident it’s not commercial.

 

[Cyberc1978]

And yet you still have not provided a shred of evidence that you must be over 20 reservations for enforcement to start.

And yes I have reached out to MS multiple times. And every time I am told the same thing. There is no magic number you have to reach.

Edit to add the document I have been sent more then once.

https://cdn1.parksmedia.wdprapps.disney.com/media/dvc/DVC-Terms-and-Conditions-2025-5-15-25.pdf

Dont count on what the frontline CM’s are saying, take everything with a grain of salt.

I suggest you ask for the policy just like @Sandisw

 

[Sandisw]

And yet you still have not provided a shred of evidence that you must be over 20 reservations for enforcement to start.

And yes I have reached out to MS multiple times. And every time I am told the same thing. There is no magic number you have to reach.

Edit to add the document I have been sent more then once.

https://cdn1.parksmedia.wdprapps.disney.com/media/dvc/DVC-Terms-and-Conditions-2025-5-15-25.pdf

Those are the booking terms and conditions. That is not the offical Commercial Use policy.

Like I said, feel free to request the policy on your own which is what the POS tells you are entitled to do…

It took a certified letter to do it, and a reference to the law to get it…which I have shared with others so they can do it.

I have chosen to share parts of the 4 page document that I have been comfortable sharing.

Feel free to go back and find them…it explains some key parts.

As I have said, the information that I have been given by DVC, DVCs own interpretation and enforcement of the policy and other advice I have been given is why I interpret the 2011 policy the way I do.

The closest you will find is the 2008 policy which is linked in here as well.

 

[Genie+]

They are still dancing around clarification by using the term rental in regard to behavior. People won’t voluntarily admit to being rentals if it causes themselves problems. It won’t be long before people know to call it all personal use and keep the finer details to themselves.

How can DVC point at anything and call it a rental? “Rental pattern of activity” must use something to determine which group(s) of reservations are suspect or not, that do not rely on self reporting. That’s the part DVC doesn’t seem keen on sharing.

 

[Mouseforward]

And yet you still have not provided a shred of evidence that you must be over 20 reservations for enforcement to start.

While I may agree that the policy ( which I have, and have read) is a " must report > 20" and does not limit DVC to just > 20 reservations as its sole criteria for determining commercial use. However, it does set 20 as the standard for the amount of reservations that DVC should investigate. So I don't think 10 reservations would be a reason to investigate absent evidence that the member violated a different standard listed in the POS.

Examples:
I think they could go after you for issues unrelated to number of reservations like making a " DVC rental Bob" website , or renting transferred points, or a LLC that is renting to non owners and employees. Becasue they are called out separately in the rules.

But ...

I don't think @Sandisw has an obligation to prove it to you.

The three of us simply have different interpretations of the same rule and rehashing it is not really productive unless new information comes out from DVC.

 

[RivShore]

Like I said, feel free to request the policy on your own which is what the POS tells you are entitled to do…

It took a certified letter to do it, and a reference to the law to get it…which I have shared with others so they can do it.

Why is a policy document that governs our time shares such a hassle to get a copy of? Was it included in our original documents when we purchased?

 

[xdan0920]

While I may agree that the policy ( which I have, and have read) is a " must report > 20" and does not limit DVC to just > 20 reservations as its sole criteria for determining commercial use. However, it does set 20 as the standard for the amount of reservations that DVC should investigate. So I don't think 10 reservations would be a reason to investigate absent evidence that the member violated a different standard listed in the POS.

Examples:
I think they could go after you for issues unrelated to number of reservations like making a " DVC rental Bob" website , or renting transferred points, or a LLC that is renting to non owners and employees. Becasue they are called out separately in the rules.

But ...

I don't think @Sandisw has an obligation to prove it to you.

The three of us simply have different interpretations of the same rule and rehashing it is not really productive unless new information comes out from DVC.

Except, I am not acting as the be all and end all of this.

I have read the 2008 policy, and I see no way that it says, 20 reservations must be reached to be deemed commercial. Rather, it says, once you reach 20 an investigation will be or in this case since I assume DVC has been derelict in its duties, should be opened.

It then clearly states…

“This policy is not intended, and shall not be deemed, either (i) to constitute an exclusive act or statement by the Association regarding any breach of the commercial activity prohibitions set forth in the Declaration of Condominium and Membership Agreement, or (ii) to be an exhaustive list of all activities that shall be deemed to be commercial activity. Accordingly, the Association reserves the right to promulgate such additional rules or to take such additional actions or measures as it deems appropriate with respect to any breach of such prohibitions.”

The issue I have with Sandi, and others, is that they then attempt to take their interpretation of this policy and make it fact.

 

[Mouseforward]

Why is a policy document that governs our time shares such a hassle to get a copy of? Was it included in our original documents when we purchased?

My guess from reading the Policy document is that at the time, Member Services (MS) was the audience for the document. It was written as the "Master Board" directing the " Individual resort boards" to provide this guidance to MS. The first 2 pages specifically spell this out.

This is similar to policy documents that HOA Boards send to management companies on how to enforce HOA rules like parking ( as an example) . It takes a rule like " No overnight parking" and clarifies how they are to be enforced with details and specifics such as " any resident car that is parked in the lot after 10pm should be ticketed"

 

[Mouseforward]

The issue I have with Sandi, and others, is that they then attempt to take their interpretation of this policy and make it fact.

She had asked members multiple times to get the facts for themselves and provided details on how she accomplished this. So this is an unfair attack, and unproductive in my opinion.

 

[xdan0920]

Why is a policy document that governs our time shares such a hassle to get a copy of? Was it included in our original documents when we purchased?

It’s not.

https://dvcfieldguide.com/public

 

[xdan0920]

She had asked members multiple times to get the facts for themselves and provided details on how she accomplished this. So this is an unfair attack, and unproductive in my opinion.

I disagree. Post the block of text that says clearly what is being put forth as fact.

 

[Tatebeck]

While I may agree that the policy ( which I have, and have read) is a " must report > 20" and does not limit DVC to just > 20 reservations as its sole criteria for determining commercial use. However, it does set 20 as the standard for the amount of reservations that DVC should investigate. So I don't think 10 reservations would be a reason to investigate absent evidence that the member violated a different standard listed in the POS.

Examples:
I think they could go after you for issues unrelated to number of reservations like making a " DVC rental Bob" website , or renting transferred points, or a LLC that is renting to non owners and employees. Becasue they are called out separately in the rules.

This is pretty much my take as well. You have to do something else sketchy to make them look at you before 20.

Curious, did you have to send a certified letter or were you able to get a response with the policy via email or phone call? I'd like a copy but sending certified mail to get it is such a hassle

 

[Mouseforward]

I disagree. Post the block of text that says clearly what is being put forth as fact.

My recommendation for anyone who would like a copy of the written policy for their own records, send a certified letter, return receipt, requesting it like I did and include the clause from your contract and this statute that helped me get it within the 10 working days as requred by law!

I have chosen not to share the document publicly but I welcome anyone to request it from DVC the way that I did....however, the policy is still the 20 reservations rule.

However, everyone is free to ignore the information....but, since this is what I was specifically told by DVC, I will continue to report it until such time that someone at DVC tells me that the MS supervisor who told it to me was not truthful.

Like I said, feel free to request the policy on your own which is what the POS tells you are entitled to do…

It took a certified letter to do it, and a reference to the law to get it…which I have shared with others so they can do it.

Do you need more than. 4 examples ?

 

[Mouseforward]

Curious, did you have to send a certified letter or were you able to get a response with the policy via email or phone call?

Apparently MS is not involved in this anymore , so you have to use mail. In fact front line MS was unaware of the document or the process until I got a supervisor .

You can use the FL or CA address ( they have so many addresses -I used the Florida since my ownership is FL)

215 Celebration Place, Suite 300, Celebration, FL 34747
500 South Buena Vista Street, Burbank, CA 91521

 

[Sandisw]

They are still dancing around clarification by using the term rental in regard to behavior. People won’t voluntarily admit to being rentals if it causes themselves problems. It won’t be long before people know to call it all personal use and keep the finer details to themselves.

How can DVC point at anything and call it a rental? “Rental pattern of activity” must use something to determine which group(s) of reservations are suspect or not, that do not rely on self reporting. That’s the part DVC doesn’t seem keen on sharing.

Any reservations in the names of others have the potential to be a rental.

And that is all DVC has to use. So, it really will come down to looking for patterns in terms of how many reservations are in the names of others that seems out of line with what might be reasonable to be family and friends.

They set the 20 reservations threshold years ago for a reason…and at this point, have chosen not to officially change it.

Just from my own personal communication with DVC in the last month, the sense is they want to target those who are in it for commercial purposes and not target the average owner who occasionally needs to rent and uses it for family and friends.

I have never been convinced that DVC went into this with wanting to make sweeping changes that would catch up the average owner.

So far, all we know for sure is that they want owners to affirm every time they book that they understand that DVC is for personal use, with examples of what is “personal use”

And we know the 2011 policy is still the offical policy of what constitutes commercial purposes.

I have asked if there is anything else because it says that shouldn’t be seen as an exhaustive list and so far, I am being told there is not.

And I have. I reason to believe that DVC management is withholding documents or records that define commercial purpose in a way that is not included in the 2011 policy.

Now, they said things can change…and that very well might still happen.

IMO, though, the longer we go without additional changes, the less likely we are to get specific rule changes and this becomes about them actually enforcing the policy as written.

So we are back to DVC deciding when to look at accounts, and when to determine they see a pattern they can reasonably conclude is enough to see you are in it for a commercial purpose.

Until we get anything more from DVC, I guess we all have to define where the threshold should be and how to square that with the offical written policy.

 

[Sandisw]

Except, I am not acting as the be all and end all of this.

I have read the 2008 policy, and I see no way that it says, 20 reservations must be reached to be deemed commercial. Rather, it says, once you reach 20 an investigation will be or in this case since I assume DVC has been derelict in its duties, should be opened.

It then clearly states…

“This policy is not intended, and shall not be deemed, either (i) to constitute an exclusive act or statement by the Association regarding any breach of the commercial activity prohibitions set forth in the Declaration of Condominium and Membership Agreement, or (ii) to be an exhaustive list of all activities that shall be deemed to be commercial activity. Accordingly, the Association reserves the right to promulgate such additional rules or to take such additional actions or measures as it deems appropriate with respect to any breach of such prohibitions.”

The issue I have with Sandi, and others, is that they then attempt to take their interpretation of this policy and make it fact.

Please go back and read my posts. I have stated several time that I am basing my interpretation on the reading of the policy based a few things.

1. How DVC has always interpreted it.

2. What DVC has told me personally.

3. Legal advice I have been given.

But I have said others disagree with me that DVC can enforce it differently and that if we get a different interpretation from DVC, then obviously my interpretation will change.

I am reporting what I was told…that nothing else currently exists when it comes to what constitutes commercial and that the current policy enforces above 20 and not below.

And so far, DVC has done nothing that disputes that they are changing the way they plan to enforce the commercial purpose clause.

Let’s see whether they do.

 

[Sandisw]

Why is a policy document that governs our time shares such a hassle to get a copy of? Was it included in our original documents when we purchased?

The POS states that the board has adopted the policy for what constitutes commercial but you have to request it.

There are plenty of other documents out there that we have to request to have…such as the property management or other records of the association.

So, in this case, it not automatically provided. Unfortunately I had requested it via email and never got it after several months of trying.

Once I officially sent it in writing via letter, and reminded them they had 10 days to get it to me, I got it.