Commerical Use Policy Update - New Thread!

[Girlstar30]

That is fine, you are allowed to do that with your own personal reservations if that is how you like to stay. IMO 3+ legs on every trip is excessive to me though. 2 is enough for the usual stay.

But the way the current rules are written, just don't expect to be able to make a ton of reservations every year AND rent out points.

Im not worried about doing either, but its obvious others are and thats fine they can worry, doesnt concern me

 

[lowlight]

IMO a “crackdown” implies this is a huge problem involving many members.

According to the board it’s not a huge problem and the members involved is only a small fraction of the member base.

I’m going to push back on this yet again. I can’t find a single direct quote where a board member says “it’s not a huge problem” or “widespread”. Can you? I’ve seen writers of articles say it, but nary a quote to be found. Happy to be wrong.

 

[Girlstar30]

I agree if you only intention for buying is renting.

However if your intention is to use it and then when you can’t go and wants to rent, you book the most profitable rooms, that I have absolutely no problem with - heck that’s what I do myself.

Absolutely you're right, who wouldnt want maximum profits when renting Giving me more to think about

 

[Noodlez]

Well technically, that is not exactly what it says, so it's best to be careful what you put in quotes. It actually says (with emphasis bolded by me)

"the DVC Member shall be required to establish, to the satisfaction of the Board, that all of the reservations made by the DVC Member in such 12-month period are for the use of accommodations by the DVC Member, the DVC Member’s family and/or the DVC Member’s friends (collectively, “Personal Use”), and not for commercial purposes"

The rule says that you have to prove to their satisfaction that every reservation of the first 20 were used by the member, family of the member, or friends of the member, which all falls under their personal use, AND that it was not for commercial purposes. It doesn't matter if your goal was profit or not, it also has to be proven that they were used by you, your family or your friends. This particular rule doesn't use the same language that other places do which sometimes states or infers that some renting is ok. It specifically states who is allowed to use the first 20 reservations

If you want to bank your ability to use your membership on being able to convince DVC that a random person on the internet that you had never talked to before renting them DVC points counts as a personal "friend" then go ahead. But I personally will try to avoid being in that position. If renter = friend then the entire first part part of the clause is useless and the only thing you would have to prove is that it was not commercial instead of proving who used it and that it was not commercial. So because they did put the first part of the clause in there, it leads members to infer that for this rule renters are not "friends"

While you have bolded a lot of things to make your point, none of them is the word rental! They mention it in the first paragraph, but in the context of over 20 reservations they do not say rental, or money, or compensation.

I am querying this because I always thought it was black and white, but having read this it now seems much more vague. It was always said that if you have over 20 reservations NONE can be rentals. You are now saying that if you have over 20 SOME rentals are fine, dependant on who you rented to!

I am not saying I’m right. I’m trying to ask what the actual rule is. I’m not making daft claims about random strangers on the internet, but in your own interpretation we are welcome to rent to friends which is a lot vaguer than no rentals!

 

[Mommb]

Absolutely you're right, who wouldnt want maximum profits when renting Giving me more to think about

Someone who is using their membership for personal use and can't use all of their points for a year would say to friends and family "I have some DVC points that I won't be using. Let me know if you have a trip planned." Then when their friends/family have a date in mind, they would see what resorts were available and let their friends/family choose. That might not result in the maximum profit but will result in happy friends.

Someone who is using their member for commercial use would look at the upcoming dates and resorts that would have the most profit, make a spec reservation, and then look for someone who wanted to take over the reservation. If that looking involves soliciting via a web site several times over a year, it sure sounds like commercial use.

I don't think all reservations made through internet connects are commercial. If the person in the first situation couldn't find friends/family with upcoming trips and posted on a rental site that they had X points with home resort Y available, then made a reservation when a connection was made, that's probably within the rules.

 

[Cyberc1978]

I’m going to push back on this yet again. I can’t find a single direct quote where a board member says “it’s not a huge problem” or “widespread”. Can you? I’ve seen writers of articles say it, but nary a quote to be found. Happy to be wrong.

I can’t find the meeting minutes from DVC - even if I did I don’t think that kind of information would be included - why? Because it does not benefit DVC.

I did find something here but it’s from a 3rd party but I don’t have any reason to believe what they write is untrue.

“All of the board members agreed that commercial rental activity is just a small portion of all member reservations. However, commercial renters tend to be among the most knowledgable owners, attempting to maximize their own revenue stream by targeting resorts, rooms and dates which will yield the greatest returns”

https://dvcnews.com/dvc-program-men...mmercial-renting-walking-during-condo-meeting

 

[HyperspaceMountainPilot]

The fact that they have not acted on this in the past two years (and counting) tells me that we are still looking at potentially more idle, empty threats. Until there is concrete ACTIONS taken, this latest development appears to be more empty words put out to appease the disgruntled members. Just my opinion....

We have basically pulled the plug on our plan to buy more VGC (direct) and BCV (resale) unless/until we start to see evidence that spec renting is decreased significantly....the check box is intriguing, but if the plan is just to scare rule followers and turn a blind eye at abusers, I don't want to increase my financial investment in this system.

Plus, at this point, if you wait for a good promo, it's only slightly more expensive to stay in a Crescent Lake hotel room than a studio, and on trips where I need bigger rooms, if I run out of borrowed/banked points I can always rent more from someone else.

The lack of cohesive messaging and complete inaction except towards scaring rule abiding members is worrying, and does a disservice to all members. It makes me wonder how much of a mess DVC is behind the scenes.

Could not agree with this more. Sounds like their plan is to terrify actual users who might rent once or twice a decade while ignoring the people snapping up the majority of high profit high demand rooms. It's being run like a family-managed small business.

However if your intention is to use it and then when you can’t go and wants to rent, you book the most profitable rooms, that I have absolutely no problem with - heck that’s what I do myself.

This attitude of "when you do want to rent, book the most profitable rooms" is what's making the system terrible for small point owners (or large point owners who have to travel during popular periods) and is what I really hope Disney will crack down on (but increasingly losing faith they will). People want to focus on the "large commercial renters" but if even half of the members justify to themselves that it's ok to use 25% of their points to maximize profit, it will create huge problems with walking and as more and more people figure it out, it will get harder to book a studio across the most desirable resorts-- this problem will get worse as more properties are restricted-- it's mostly a Crescent Lake/AUL/VGC/VDH/CFW problem today, but it will increasingly become a problem at CCV, AKV (all studios), RIV, VGF, PVB due to a combination of those points becoming cheaper (as DVC devalues the resale product) and BWV profit opportunities disappearing.

Disney knows exactly which rooms are the most profitable and it would not be hard (at all) to generate a search identifying memberships that have booked a high percentage of these rooms at 11mo (or 7mo) and then changed the names-- disciplining those actors (designed to maximize profit for a commercial purpose) would make the system work better for the entire membership.

 

[Cyberc1978]

Someone who is using their membership for personal use and can't use all of their points for a year would say to friends and family "I have some DVC points that I won't be using. Let me know if you have a trip planned." Then when their friends/family have a date in mind, they would see what resorts were available and let their friends/family choose. That might not result in the maximum profit but will result in happy friends.

Someone who is using their member for commercial use would look at the upcoming dates and resorts that would have the most profit, make a spec reservation, and then look for someone who wanted to take over the reservation. If that looking involves soliciting via a web site several times over a year, it sure sounds like commercial use.

I don't think all reservations made through internet connects are commercial. If the person in the first situation couldn't find friends/family with upcoming trips and posted on a rental site that they had X points with home resort Y available, then made a reservation when a connection was made, that's probably within the rules.

We are all different and some gift away their points or reservations. Others would only want to recoup their dues others again would want to recoup more than just their dues.

Personally I would want to rent for maximum profit. But just because I spec rent does not make me a commercial renter - if it does I’ll probably hear from DVC.
I also gift away my points to my closest family. I don’t have friends which treasure Disney as we do, so no point in gifting them a stay as it would be cheaper to book something off site if you are just going to Orlando.

There is absolutely no difference between an on demand reservation or a spec reservation. Both are a reservation which is being rented.

 

[Tatebeck]

While you have bolded a lot of things to make your point, none of them is the word rental! They mention it in the first paragraph, but in the context of over 20 reservations they do not say rental, or money, or compensation.

I am querying this because I always thought it was black and white, but having read this it now seems much more vague. It was always said that if you have over 20 reservations NONE can be rentals. You are now saying that if you have over 20 SOME rentals are fine, dependant on who you rented to!

I am not saying I’m right. I’m trying to ask what the actual rule is. I’m not making daft claims about random strangers on the internet, but in your own interpretation we are welcome to rent to friends which is a lot vaguer than no rentals!

That is actually not quite the point I was making. I was saying that there are two parts to the rule if you have over 20 reservations.

1: If you have 20+ reservations, they can check to make sure that ALL of them were used by ONLY you, your family, or your friends
2: They can also check how much money they think (or that you volunteer) that you made and whether that is enough to consider you to be commercial (and really they can do this at any time, not just over 20 reservations)

In most of the rules, "friends" typically means someone whom a member brings with them or that the member lets use the room. I believe DVC typically classifies these family/friends as people that you would usually not charge to use the room. They do in fact mention renters separately from these family in friends in some parts of the rules. Though they could reimburse you for the reservation if they wish.

So in renting a single reservation to a stranger, DVC could very likely say that they do not count as a friend and that you are now not guaranteed the ability to make any reservations after your 20th.

I personally think that DVC will assume that in letting an actual friend/family member use the room they will treat it like it was done for free or just not care about the $ reimbursed unless it is likely enough to make you seem commercial.

So it may seem like a very small difference, but I would not say that it's you can rent and have over 20 reservations if some are family/actual friends so much as it would be you can have over 20 reservations if they are all used by you, your family, and your friends, and your family and friends are free to reimburse you for the dues (or some other amount) if they wish.

 

[VGCgroupie]

We have basically pulled the plug on our plan to buy more VGC (direct) and BCV (resale) unless/until we start to see evidence that spec renting is decreased significantly....the check box is intriguing, but if the plan is just to scare rule followers and turn a blind eye at abusers, I don't want to increase my financial investment in this system.

They dont care much about resale and I bet they dont even look at it as losing money when you are in the parks if you dont buy. But, I would tell your guide that is why you don't want VGC direct or any new resorts either. I would also email DVC and let them know that. They care about direct sales.

 

[Girlstar30]

I see mostly everybody's point. That's what makes this situation so complex

I think most of us can agree that large commercial renters renting only for profit have got to go. Now we wait and see

I agree @VGCgroupie people should write to DVC their concerns about this situation and why its making them weary of buying direct. I will mention my concerns to my guide when the time comes and DVC.

 

[lowlight]

I can’t find the meeting minutes from DVC - even if I did I don’t think that kind of information would be included - why? Because it does not benefit DVC.

I did find something here but it’s from a 3rd party but I don’t have any reason to believe what they write is untrue.

“All of the board members agreed that commercial rental activity is just a small portion of all member reservations. However, commercial renters tend to be among the most knowledgable owners, attempting to maximize their own revenue stream by targeting resorts, rooms and dates which will yield the greatest returns”

https://dvcnews.com/dvc-program-men...mmercial-renting-walking-during-condo-meeting

That isn't a quote though, it's an inference. I'm not trying to be petty, it matters because that misquoted line has been repeated so often that it's taken on a life of its own when people try to characterize where DVC stands on the issue.

 

[VGCgroupie]

That isn't a quote though, it's an inference. I'm not trying to be petty, it matters because that misquoted line has been repeated so often that it's taken on a life of its own when people try to characterize where DVC stands on the issue.

Evidently it takes awhile for the minutes to be approved. I guess we will know when they do.

I shouldn't have to track down minutes and wait. There should be an easier way for members to take part in meetings. Zoom for those interested, although I feel Disney IT cant handle that. Even a simple live stream if they cant facilitate online interaction at the meetings. I shouldn't have to be there in person or rely on someone's blog to know what took place.

 

[lowlight]

This attitude of "when you do want to rent, book the most profitable rooms" is what's making the system terrible for small point owners (or large point owners who have to travel during popular periods) and is what I really hope Disney will crack down on (but increasingly losing faith they will).

I think this is the one point I've tried making over and over to no avail. There are actions which, by themselves, are not some terrible misdeed, but when multiplied by several thousands will ruin the entire system. Walking and spec renting are inseparably in this category. You are not some terrible person for doing it, but if every single member did it, the system would collapse. What some people really want to say is that they want to continue doing these things, while preventing others from doing them. Any defense of either of these practices falls into this category, because if everyone did them, nobody could do them.

 

[Girlstar30]

I think this is the one point I've tried making over and over to no avail. There are actions which, by themselves, are not some terrible misdeed, but when multiplied by several thousands will ruin the entire system. Walking and spec renting are inseparably in this category. You are not some terrible person for doing it, but if every single member did it, the system would collapse. What some people really want to say is that they want to continue doing these things, while preventing others from doing them. Any defense of either of these practices falls into this category, because if everyone did them, nobody could do them.

I dont ever want to walk, but I feel like I may have to if I want to get what I want, which is definetely a problem.

Although rest assured, with a December UY I'll never get to walk my desired AKV room So much for guides telling ppl to buy a December UY for when they want to go during Christmas!

 

[HyperspaceMountainPilot]

I dont ever want to walk, but I feel like I may have to if I want to get what I want, which is definetely a problem.

Although rest assured, with a December UY I'll never get to walk my desired AKV room So much for guides telling ppl to buy a December UY for when they want to go during Christmas!

Yep, buying a December UY is TERRIBLE advice for people who want to visit during Christmas--because of walking! As I said above, it's only a problem for some resorts and rooms now, but if Disney doesn't curb spec renting, it will become a bigger problem each year, and rise dramatically after BWV is gone.

Luckily for us, we also like to travel at Thanksgiving, and for whatever reason, our guide randomly advised an August UY, which is not ideal for Aulani, but also means we could walk from Aug-Nov if we had to (hopefully things never get so bad that you have to walk a 1bed/2bed at AUL from Aug to Nov, if we did, we would probably just sell!

 

[CarolynFH]

Evidently it takes awhile for the minutes to be approved. I guess we will know when they do.

I shouldn't have to track down minutes and wait. There should be an easier way for members to take part in meetings. Zoom for those interested, although I feel Disney IT cant handle that. Even a simple live stream if they cant facilitate online interaction at the meetings. I shouldn't have to be there in person or rely on someone's blog to know what took place.

I have a vague memory, so may be faulty, that the issue of renting was brought up by an owner during a Q&A session - therefore not in the minutes.

 

[VGCgroupie]

I have a vague memory, so may be faulty, that the issue of renting was brought up by an owner during a Q&A session - therefore not in the minutes.

Possible. All the more reason I would love to see a live stream of the meetings. But again Disney IT might fail us anyway

 

[Cyberc1978]

This attitude of "when you do want to rent, book the most profitable rooms" is what's making the system terrible for small point owners (or large point owners who have to travel during popular periods) and is what I really hope Disney will crack down on (but increasingly losing faith they will). People want to focus on the "large commercial renters" but if even half of the members justify to themselves that it's ok to use 25% of their points to maximize profit, it will create huge problems with walking and as more and more people figure it out, it will get harder to book a studio across the most desirable resorts-- this problem will get worse as more properties are restricted-- it's mostly a Crescent Lake/AUL/VGC/VDH/CFW problem today, but it will increasingly become a problem at CCV, AKV (all studios), RIV, VGF, PVB due to a combination of those points becoming cheaper (as DVC devalues the resale product) and BWV profit opportunities disappearing.

Disney knows exactly which rooms are the most profitable and it would not be hard (at all) to generate a search identifying memberships that have booked a high percentage of these rooms at 11mo (or 7mo) and then changed the names-- disciplining those actors (designed to maximize profit for a commercial purpose) would make the system work better for the entire membership.

The rules allow the members to rent, why shouldn’t we be allowed to rent any type of room for any date?

Some dates will always be more popular than others and therefore be more profitable. Just because members rent the most or less profitable rooms for that matter does not mean we are doing anything wrong.

If 25% of owners rent and if they rent ie during Christmas time then yes that time will be constrained - the system is designed as FCFS. But that’s how the system is designed and how it works. The same would happen if 25% of owners booked or rented during February.

The larger the member base becomes the bigger the rental issue could potentially become - assuming that all new members rent some of their points. But that’s the beast that DVC themselves created not the members.

Don’t hate the players hate the game.

 

[Cyberc1978]

That isn't a quote though, it's an inference. I'm not trying to be petty, it matters because that misquoted line has been repeated so often that it's taken on a life of its own when people try to characterize where DVC stands on the issue.

I understand, but if the Q/A part of the meetings is not included in the minutes then all we can go by is the information from people attending the meetings.

However I would expect the Q/A to be part of the meeting minutes.