Commerical Use Policy Update - New Thread!

[muppets3d]

No argument here, but if the shift to confirmed rentals are only available <60 days would that actually stop spec renting, or would the broker still rent but then just not post the listing for 9 months? You’d have to put rules in place to protect families that made reservations in good faith only to have “life happen” vs. commercial renters that do this day in and day out. E.g. only one (two? five?) name change(s) over a 12 month period perhaps, otherwise you have to cancel and rebook?

No matter what changes are made, somebody will say well that will affect me negatively so all DVC can do is ride that razor’s edge between affect affecting the fewest members possible and cutting out the most commercial renting possible.

 

[lowlight]

Very perceptive because it was a bit of both And you nailed the plan!

As the shift away from offering existing availability at any 1 single point in time to scooping the best availability first to sell afterwards, the system is plagued at every step of the way. Not only 11 month availability. It’s any availability that pops up after that as well. Ordinarily owners aren’t going to snatch up anything that appears in the system because they are limited by what they can use. But if renting, you can take any and all. If you are renting out, it’s the room category that matters most, not the dates. Plus there’s the walking turning the 11 month window into 13+.

Even when owners are lucky enough to get one of the high value/demand rooms, they’ll still be competing with spec res competition if needing to add or move days.

If DVC ends up not doing much about, then maybe I will change strategy. I’ll pull the cream to rent it out to pay for the types of rooms that are not targeted. That way if we need to alter the dates a bit down the line, I’ll be competing mostly with other personal use.

On the last big renting thread, this was my plan, as well as a few others. If DVC is officially blessing renting ~50% of your points to cover dues, it would be very smart to do this. It has the added benefit of adding fuel to the fire and quickening the collapse of the system. The very definition of the collapse of DVC is when it becomes easier for non-owners to secure the best rooms than it is for owners, and we are basically there. With owners willing to walk spec reservations now, even the elusive grand villa's are within a renters reach.

 

[lowlight]

One thing I've noted in the past is that many of the people doing the commercial renting thing are former DVC cast members. It makes sense that those that made the rules know the way to get around the rules, which is what we've seen happening the past decade. Using LLC's to circumvent nearly every rule? It makes me wonder what kind of collusion is going on between these outfits and some members of the current DVC team.

 

[Sandisw]

People keep keep saying on this thread that renting is such a small percentage of the membership. Maybe it should go up for a vote to eliminate all renting and maybe it passes if that is true.

The POS outlines the process for owners who might seek to have the POS amended...the information can be found in the Declarations part of the contract as well as in the By-Laws where it discusses voting rights.

Any potential amendement, even if voted on by owners, would have to comply with FL 718 and FL 721.....

 

[Sandisw]

One thing I've noted in the past is that many of the people doing the commercial renting thing are former DVC cast members. It makes sense that those that made the rules know the way to get around the rules, which is what we've seen happening the past decade. Using LLC's to circumvent nearly every rule? It makes me wonder what kind of collusion is going on between these outfits and some members of the current DVC team.

My daughter worked for TWDC in a professional capacity until COVID and I can say that they have pretty high safeguards in place for those working for the company and when they leave to prevent any level of collusion....it would surprise me if that would occur.

But, as I mentioned, the use of vacation points for reservations for LLCs is limited by the POS already....so even if the report that the rental agreement of www.dvcrentalstore.com has that language....which, I couldn't find when I just looked....it would not matter because LLC's are not allowed to let "guests" use their points?

 

[disneygrandma]

I've skimmed thru here, and I'm somewhat confused about the LLC's. These are clearly businesses that are renting DVC reservations for profit. That alone seems like it shouldn't be allowed. Especially when individual owners have to worry about the 20+ rule when trying to put together family trips that require 2 or more villas per trip that are done with split stays, etc.

 

[Cyberc1978]

But, as I mentioned, the use of vacation points for reservations for LLCs is limited by the POS already....so even if the report that the rental agreement of www.dvcrentalstore.com has that language....which, I couldn't find when I just looked....it would not matter because LLC's are not allowed to let "guests" use their points?

I’ve clarified my previous post it’s in the confirmation email sent to the renter.

this is the wording from the email

"If asked during check-in, please refer to yourselves as a guest of DVC Investments, LLC, not a renter. Please note, Disney will have no record of any transaction regarding the DVC Rental Store. All of Disney's dealings have been done through DVC Investments, LLC.

Please be aware, check-in will be no different than any other regular resort stay. The reservation is in your name, so you will need to provide your name, a photo ID and a credit card to the Cast Member checking you in. Rarely, if ever, will the member's name come up."

 

[mkatsy]

My daughter worked for TWDC in a professional capacity until COVID and I can say that they have pretty high safeguards in place for those working for the company and when they leave to prevent any level of collusion....it would surprise me if that would occur.

But, as I mentioned, the use of vacation points for reservations for LLCs is limited by the POS already....so even if the report that the rental agreement of www.dvcrentalstore.com has that language....which, I couldn't find when I just looked....it would not matter because LLC's are not allowed to let "guests" use their points?

I don’t know anyone that works there, but I would agree that safeguards are more than likely in place. I work in a completely unrelated field but my employer is a household name and there are Facebook groups dedicated to complaints. Every year, as a condition of my employment I am required to sign: a non compete, a non disclosure regarding proprietary information, a contract stating that I work only for my employer and I cannot work for anyone else in any capacity, a social media contract stating that I will not engage or comment, a contract acknowledging that I am not authorized to speak about my employer to reporters (television, newspapers) that may seek me out, I have to take a test and score 80% that I understand that private information must be safeguarded. at this point if someone mentions my employer I answer “I don’t know them”

 

[Genie+]

A blatant attempt to push the issue? Maybe that LLC guest thing is to get it over with. To say they aren’t going to back down easily and they are prepared to push the issue. Because with all this uncertainty it’s an uncomfortable position for these commercial entities to be stuck in limbo. They rather be full steam ahead without this storm lingering above.

 

[Cyberc1978]

A blatant attempt to push the issue? Maybe that LLC guest thing is to get it over with. To say they aren’t going to back down easily and they are prepared to push the issue. Because with all this uncertainty it’s an uncomfortable position for these commercial entities to be stuck in limbo. They rather be full steam ahead without this storm lingering above.

Either DVC cares enough to do something about the problem or they don’t.

In this particular case the rental company is using and abusing the DVC name, don’t know if Disney owns the rights to use the DVC name brand but misunderstandings could easily arise

 

[Sandisw]

I've skimmed thru here, and I'm somewhat confused about the LLC's. These are clearly businesses that are renting DVC reservations for profit. That alone seems like it shouldn't be allowed. Especially when individual owners have to worry about the 20+ rule when trying to put together family trips that require 2 or more villas per trip that are done with split stays, etc.

Part of the confusion is that the POS already defines who can use the reservations made on a membership owned by a corporation, including LLCs.....

However, DVC doesnt appear to have ever enforced the clause below, and has allowed LLC's to actually rent to others.

Even the 2011 policy that is still in place as the adopted definition by the board for commerical purpose, the decision to enforce or not remains at the discretion of DVCMC, as the board has given them the authority to them.

 

[Sandisw]

I don’t know anyone that works there, but I would agree that safeguards are more than likely in place. I work in a completely unrelated field but my employer is a household name and there are Facebook groups dedicated to complaints. Every year, as a condition of my employment I am required to sign: a non compete, a non disclosure regarding proprietary information, a contract stating that I work only for my employer and I cannot work for anyone else in any capacity, a social media contract stating that I will not engage or comment, a contract acknowledging that I am not authorized to speak about my employer to reporters (television, newspapers) that may seek me out, I have to take a test and score 80% that I understand that private information must be safeguarded. at this point if someone mentions my employer I answer “I don’t know them”

What I can say there is something that she still keeps a secret that she was directly involved in that I am dying to know the answer too!

And, she won't spill the beans!!!!! LOL

 

[Sandisw]

I’ve clarified my previous post it’s in the confirmation email sent to the renter.

this is the wording from the email

"If asked during check-in, please refer to yourselves as a guest of DVC Investments, LLC, not a renter. Please note, Disney will have no record of any transaction regarding the DVC Rental Store. All of Disney's dealings have been done through DVC Investments, LLC.

Please be aware, check-in will be no different than any other regular resort stay. The reservation is in your name, so you will need to provide your name, a photo ID and a credit card to the Cast Member checking you in. Rarely, if ever, will the member's name come up."

Appreciate that clarification!!! The enforcement against LLC's is what stumps me given what already exists in the POS....the only logical reason to me is that there is a legal hurdle to doing it, and that stopping them from doing certain things is not as easy as it would seem to go after LLC's.

Then again, we are assuming that nothing has been done to notify the big time players....and we know DVC won't be disclosing it and I doubt those getting caught will either.....

 

[Cyberc1978]

Appreciate that clarification!!! The enforcement against LLC's is what stumps me given what already exists in the POS....the only logical reason to me is that there is a legal hurdle to doing it, and that stopping them from doing certain things is not as easy as it would seem to go after LLC's.

Then again, we are assuming that nothing has been done to notify the big time players....and we know DVC won't be disclosing it and I doubt those getting caught will either.....

You are correct they nor DVC will say anything.

However if renters are negatively impacted they will take it to SoMe, then we will hear about it.

 

[zavandor]

People keep keep saying on this thread that renting is such a small percentage of the membership. Maybe it should go up for a vote to eliminate all renting and maybe it passes if that is true.

DVC execs said that commercial renting is just a small percentage.

 

[HyperspaceMountainPilot]

Appreciate that clarification!!! The enforcement against LLC's is what stumps me given what already exists in the POS....the only logical reason to me is that there is a legal hurdle to doing it, and that stopping them from doing certain things is not as easy as it would seem to go after LLC's.

Then again, we are assuming that nothing has been done to notify the big time players....and we know DVC won't be disclosing it and I doubt those getting caught will either.....

It doesn’t sound like DVC has done any enforcement at all since a brief spurt of letter writing in 2011(ish), and maybe briefly making it harder for a few people who already owned a ton to buy more around the same time…but it’s absolutely not because they couldn’t enforce. I think it’s because they didn’t see any reason to spend the time/money/manpower to do anything about commercial renting, especially as parks were packed to the gills in ‘22-23 and they’re only impacting Disney’s pricing strategy at its hotels in the past year (also it’s starting to be better understood by the membership that availability and convenience are changing for the worse).

I recommend everyone on this thread write Disney and ask why they aren’t enforcing against the blatant commercial renting (where renters are being told they are guests of LLCs, as is forbidden under the POS) and also provide evidence of the thousands of spec rentals across individual sites and FB.

 

[IMMkXLVI]

And I bet you a pretty penny that my request was reviewed by legal because the initial responses I got certainly inferred that it would be.

It had to go through review before they could formalize my request. So yeah, it was a process.

What I requested was the current and offical policy on record …as I am entitled to and the response to me was this is the offical policy.

I am not sharing all the offical documents sent to me until I got written authorization that doing so publicly won’t put me into legal hot water.

People can certainly have an opinion they think this will be updated.

But when legally requested, this is what DVC compliance sent and therefore, the 2011 policy is the offical adopted policy of the board for all DVC resorts.

If people want their own copy, they need to request it..I included the the POS clause and the law requiring the 10 day response date in post #1.

I'd expand on the earlier comment and suggest legal wasn't yet ready to release the in-process documents even if 99% mature. They released what was enough to satisfy their obligation to fulfill the request from you. If they release a new statement or doc in a day/week/month it in no ways reflects on what was provided to you. Companies supersede policies with new ones all the time.

I don't think what was provided to you is indicative of there not being a more stringent policy in the drafting phase.

 

[muppets3d]

DVC execs said that commercial renting is just a small percentage.

And people here are parroting it as gospel.

 

[HyperspaceMountainPilot]

And people here are parroting it as gospel.

Are you telling me I can’t take an off the cuff corporate statement (downplaying its own dereliction of contractual responsibilities) as gospel?

 

[Sandisw]

I'd expand on the earlier comment and suggest legal wasn't yet ready to release the in-process documents even if 99% mature. They released what was enough to satisfy their obligation to fulfill the request from you. If they release a new statement or doc in a day/week/month it in no ways reflects on what was provided to you. Companies supersede policies with new ones all the time.

I don't think what was provided to you is indicative of there not being a more stringent policy in the drafting phase.

There is no evidence provided to owners to support there would be new policy…. the board never stated they planned any policy changes.

Of course rules can change at any time…It’s a given.

But the fact is they added the check box 6 months in and did not officially change the policy, almost 7 months later.

So, until we get a new document filed with the state that is updated?

EThe 2011 policy is the offical one.

ETA. At what point, would their offical statements and actions or lack there be a clue to their stance in reference to this?