College or not?

[howlongtildisney]

I would definitely say she should put it off. My DH and my BIL are both having to get expensive master's degrees that could have been avoided if they had spent a little time between high school and college figuring out what they wanted to do with their lives. DH has a degree in economics - a field he loves, but he'd need a PhD in order to really do anything in the field. Now he's in school to be a CPA. BIL has a degree in something related to insurance or accounting (don't remember) and he's probably going to get a degree in hospitality management now that he's discovered what he likes to do.

So I say, she should take some time to find her passion and THEN go to school.

 

[MrsPete]

It's been interesting reading this thread. So what do you do with a kid who is very motivated, honor student, been looking at colleges since freshman year and wants to go into something not as practical?

When I posted a few months ago, several told me -don't squash her dreams, let her make the decisions, etc. She is aware she will need education past her BA and is prepared to do that. My only doubts are her ability to get a paying job that she likes - archaeology/history. I know she could possibly transfer that into teaching but worry about the job market in museums or dig sites.

I personally think archaeology is fascinating -- but it's very unlikely to get her a paying job. This isn't all that obvious to high school students (especially strong academic students, who are used to "winning") who figure it'll all work out in the end. You could have her look into job openings and let her see that those are non-existant. And I'd try to help her see that she is good at multiple things -- not just this one thing.

And I wouldn't be opposed to my child minoring in something rather unrealistic, but I want her to come out of college with solid job skills and the ability to support herself and her future family.

Also, I'd try to help her understand that a teenager's work (school) IS her life. Her academics are twisted up emotionally with her friends, school pride, and all sorts of things. She can't understand yet that work may or may be like that. For some people, work IS their life. For others, work is something they do every day to support their life; that doesn't mean they're miserable at work -- not at all -- rather, it means that they've somewhat compartmentalized their lives.

I tend to agree in theory, but I know so many women who went to college for their degrees and also got huge amounts of student loan debt, and now that they're marrying and starting families that debt makes it impossible for them to become SAHMs. I don't think education is ever wasted if you (or your parents, or your scholarships) can pay for it, but I also think people are much too quick to dismiss the lifelong consequences of starting out deeply in debt.

We wouldn't recommend our kids take on 50K in credit card debts at 18-19 years old; we shouldn't be pushing them to take that on in student loans either unless they have a clear plan that is likely to lead to a good return on investment. And sexist as it may be, I think women especially have to think long and hard about how much student loan debt they're willing to take on.

Okay, I want to ammend my previous statement: I want my daughters to get a degree WITHOUT DEBT. I totally agree with you that coming out of college with debt is like promising away a portion of your future. It removes options. I want my girls to be able to make their own choices after graduation -- not be forced into something by their financial needs.

I think your last statement, however, applies equally to men. They ALSO should think long and hard about how much student loan debt they're willing to take on. The expectation seems to be that a man will always work, but taking on debt removes his options just as much as it removes hers. It means he may feel obligated to take a higher-paying job far from family, or he may feel obligated to work more hours rather than have time at home with his young family. If I had a son, I'd do my best to help him avoid debt just as I will my daughters.

 

[sophie832]

I never questioned whether I would go to a 4-year college or not...in fact, I was excited about it all through HS. I finished my BA in Film Studies at 20, and my MBA in International Business at 23. Did I end up using my Film Studies degree? No. My job has to do with my business degree. However, film is still my passion and I have no regrets about the degree I chose. The job I have now only requires a Bachelor's and 2 accounting classes, but I never would have gotten it if I hadn't gone on to get the business degree. I suppose a BA or BS in Business would have been enough, but I feel a sense of accomplishment with my MBA, and no one can take that away from me. For me, the education itself is the reward, but I always wanted the degree in order to be able to apply for any job that had a degree requirement.

My parents both got their BA and MA degrees, but they did it later in life, starting with 2-year colleges in their 20s, then taking their time to get to the 4-year school. My mother worked soooooo hard to get her BA and MA while I was growing up, and I saw her pain while having to do that with a child and a full time job. Now my dad is retired, and my mom makes a good living as a teacher. Their degrees got them the jobs that afforded an upper-middle-class lifestyle. I know it is possible to get well-paying jobs without a degree, but I don't personally know anyone who has done that.

DH's growing up was a very different story. His parents are immigrants, and I think at least one of them did not graduate HS. They are working hard to make ends meet, but they have always managed to provide for their children. Since neither one has ever been able to keep a job long-term (due to the economic ebb/flow that hits blue-collar jobs hard), I doubt they will be retiring anytime soon. DH was pushed into a 2-year college right out of HS, and promptly flunked/dropped out even though he was on a full scholarship. He finally finished his AA last year with my help (I keep him on-track), and is now working on a BS. It is a lot more expensive than free, though, and we struggle to pay for 2 classes a semester.

One of DH's sisters went straight to a 4-year college on full scholarship, and it took her about 5-6 years to finish the degree (we're actually not entirely sure she really finished). The other sister went to a 2-year, and has been struggling. She went continuously for about 3 years, then gave up with 2 classes left before transfer. Not sure if she'll go back. Now his youngest sister is a HS senior and wants to go to a 2-year college before she transfers to an out-of-state school. I want to have faith that she'll make it, but it's difficult.

It's always been my opinion that 2-year college is like an extension of HS, except without anyone forcing you to attend class. Due to that, many people drop out and never go back. Yesterday, I read an article in the L.A. Times that supported my opinion. I couldn't find the link on the Times site, but here's another one: http://www.dailynews.com/news/ci_16389361?source=rss

IMHO, if a HS senior isn't truly motivated to go to college, I wouldn't bother forcing him/her, even into a 2-year college. If they really want to get a degree, do whatever you can financially to get them into a 4-year school.

 

[Minnie]

My position requires a BS or BA in a specific field + an MBA - you aren't eligible to even apply without it.

I am one of those that went back to school later in life. Hard.... OMG yes - DS was a toddler and I worked full time. Life was crazy for many years but the hard work paid off

BTW - My first degree was an AA through local community college and every one of those credits transferred to the University

 

[shelemm]

\So what do you do with a kid who is very motivated, honor student, been looking at colleges since freshman year and wants to go into something not as practical?

Always let your kid study what they want to study. Encourage it. Life is way to short to do otherwise. I studied theatre in college, and I don't regret it for one second. I started off as a criminal justice major but got cast in shows and got the acting bug.

Very few undergrad degrees are worth much by themselves. Maybe Information Technology. Eventually, you need an 'amplifier.'. Whether that is graduate school, experience, certifications, there are many possibilities. You can save worrying about that for later.

For me, the important question is: how many people get a traditional 'liberal arts' degree like English, Theatre, Music, History, etc and regret it?

I don't know the answer.

 

[disfan07]

I tend to agree in theory, but I know so many women who went to college for their degrees and also got huge amounts of student loan debt, and now that they're marrying and starting families that debt makes it impossible for them to become SAHMs. I don't think education is ever wasted if you (or your parents, or your scholarships) can pay for it, but I also think people are much too quick to dismiss the lifelong consequences of starting out deeply in debt.

We wouldn't recommend our kids take on 50K in credit card debts at 18-19 years old; we shouldn't be pushing them to take that on in student loans either unless they have a clear plan that is likely to lead to a good return on investment. And sexist as it may be, I think women especially have to think long and hard about how much student loan debt they're willing to take on.

But not everyone wants to be a SAHP so for some that's not a concern. I want to have 1 or 2 kids but I have absolutely no desire to be a SAHM...at least not fulltime. I WANT to work, even after I have kids so for me, it doesnt matter if it makes it impossible for me to be a SAHM because thats not what I want to do

 

[QVCshopper]

I tend to agree in theory, but I know so many women who went to college for their degrees and also got huge amounts of student loan debt, and now that they're marrying and starting families that debt makes it impossible for them to become SAHMs. I don't think education is ever wasted if you (or your parents, or your scholarships) can pay for it, but I also think people are much too quick to dismiss the lifelong consequences of starting out deeply in debt.

We wouldn't recommend our kids take on 50K in credit card debts at 18-19 years old; we shouldn't be pushing them to take that on in student loans either unless they have a clear plan that is likely to lead to a good return on investment. And sexist as it may be, I think women especially have to think long and hard about how much student loan debt they're willing to take on.

This reminds me of when I was working at 7-11 in college, and a male customer said to me, "You're just going to college to find a husband." Oh, and I was livid. I put myself through college, paid every cent myself, and he had the nerve to say that.

The funny thing is that I did meet DH in college, but I have continued to work before and throughout having children. In fact, I have a part-time job that lets me work from home at night and pays very well--far better than what I would get without a degree. Plus, I can use my degree when I return full-time to the workforce.

 

[bettymae1121]

A few years ago I'd have said a 4 year degree wasn't necessary (good to have, but not something one had to do). I'm 34 and DH is 38, neither of us have a college degree of any kind and we gross in the low (very low) six figures.

But in today's job market more and more employers seem to want a degree for even the most entry level of jobs. I think it's gotten to the point that anyone that is able to get a four year degree, really should. Now that doesn't mean that one should go straight from HS and into college, if a kid isn't ready then it's a waste of both time and money. But at some point they need to get that degree.

 

[MrsPete]

But not everyone wants to be a SAHP so for some that's not a concern. I want to have 1 or 2 kids but I have absolutely no desire to be a SAHM...at least not fulltime. I WANT to work, even after I have kids so for me, it doesnt matter if it makes it impossible for me to be a SAHM because thats not what I want to do

I felt the same way, but you never know what may happen. If I'd had twins or if I'd had a child with medical issues, my salary wouldn't have been enough to cover day care (and still have enough to justify working). Or if my husband had taken a job traveling extensively while the kids were small, I might've decided to stay home. Any number of circumstances could've altered my choice.

The thing is, I want my girls to have OPTIONS. I don't want them to have to delay marriage, home ownership, children, etc. I don't want them to be forced into working. Debt takes away options, and I do think that should be a concern for everyone.

This reminds me of when I was working at 7-11 in college, and a male customer said to me, "You're just going to college to find a husband." Oh, and I was livid. I put myself through college, paid every cent myself, and he had the nerve to say that.

The funny thing is that I did meet DH in college, but I have continued to work before and throughout having children. In fact, I have a part-time job that lets me work from home at night and pays very well--far better than what I would get without a degree. Plus, I can use my degree when I return full-time to the workforce.

I'd have been angry at that too!

I have multiple goals for my girls as they head off to college. Obviously, the education is the #1 priority. I want them to earn a marketable degree, which will allow them to support themselves and their future families. But I also hope they'll become more independant, make good friends, have lots of fun . . . and, to be honest, I do hope that they each meet a fantastic guy while they're in college. Many of my friends married college sweethearts and have had successful marriages. But that's NOT WHY I'm sending them.

Incidentally, I met my husband in my last semester of college. I got him AND the degree.

 

[disfan07]

I felt the same way, but you never know what may happen. If I'd had twins or if I'd had a child with medical issues, my salary wouldn't have been enough to cover day care (and still have enough to justify working). Or if my husband had taken a job traveling extensively while the kids were small, I might've decided to stay home. Any number of circumstances could've altered my choice.

The thing is, I want my girls to have OPTIONS. I don't want them to have to delay marriage, home ownership, children, etc. I don't want them to be forced into working. Debt takes away options, and I do think that should be a concern for everyone.

But why does that only pertain to girls? My brother is engaged. He has a sociology degree adn is getting a political science degree as well. His finace is getting her degree in computer science. They have already talked about it and they know that she will most likely be able to make more money with her career than he would be able to so if they have kids and want a parent to stay home, he will be the one staying home. But he is the one who has debt. He has probably about $40,000 in debt. She has no debt becaus eher parents paid for her college. So did he waste money if there is a chance that he wont be working but he has college debt?

 

[Colleen27]

But not everyone wants to be a SAHP so for some that's not a concern. I want to have 1 or 2 kids but I have absolutely no desire to be a SAHM...at least not fulltime. I WANT to work, even after I have kids so for me, it doesnt matter if it makes it impossible for me to be a SAHM because thats not what I want to do

I don't mean this to be condescending but I know that's how it sounded to me when I was in your shoes - you really can't know 100% for sure until you're there in the moment. You have no idea what life might throw at you that could make you reconsider that.

Women (and people in general) should keep as many doors as possible open, because life is fluid and priorities and circumstances change. Debt closes doors.

 

[momblanch]

WOW...thanks for this thread! I feel very enlightened by everyone's responses. I have a similar situation, as in DS18 is a HS senior, looking to go to college, wants to live at home, bright kid, decent grades but not super focused, whose passion is...you guessed it...HISTORY!! Oh and...does NOT want to become an educator!

So...DH and I have encouraged him to attend CC to pursue and complete an assoc degree, with the intention of continuing on to a 4y college. We are fortunate to have an excellent CC with solid transfer agreements with most, if not all, of our state universities. It makes the most sense for his situation and our finances.

We have also encouraged him to consider a more "marketable" major while still seeking out the history subjects he loves. He most recently expressed
some interest in ROTC...but that's a whole other thread in itself!

DH and I are only HS grads, and sometimes second-guess my wisdom. I am somewhat reassured from the majority of posts, that we have offered him some positive guidance.

 

[disfan07]

I don't mean this to be condescending but I know that's how it sounded to me when I was in your shoes - you really can't know 100% for sure until you're there in the moment. You have no idea what life might throw at you that could make you reconsider that.

Women (and people in general) should keep as many doors as possible open, because life is fluid and priorities and circumstances change. Debt closes doors.

No one is 100% sure about anything but I am almost positive that unless there is something major (like medical issues with my child, multiples (maybe), etc) i wont be a SAHM. I can't be a SAHM. At least not fulltime. I already know that. It's not my personality. I LOVE children. I plan on working with children for a living but I could not stay home all day. It wouldnt work for me.

But some of us have no choice but to take out loans. We have had more than $100,000 in medical bills in teh past 5 years and it doesnt look like they are slwoing down anytime soon. Guess where some of that money had to come from....college funds. I had enough for all 4 years. Not anymore. I ended up with enough for 2 1/2 years. so I will have 1 1/2 years of undergrad debt (about $35,000) plus graduate debt. I believe that it is worth it. With what I have been through and am currently going through right now, the fact that I am alive and able to get my degree is much more important to me than any "what ifs" in my future. I've learned that "what ifs" are not important to me anymore....it's right now that's important adn right now I want to get my PhD and work with children. That is my door that i want to open. I dont what to give that up because of possibilties or what other doors COULD open in the future.

 

[Michelle and crew]

While debt takes away options...an education is an investment. As with any investment you have to decide how much you can afford to invest and what the potential rewards are.

 

[bumbershoot]

But why does that only pertain to girls? My brother is engaged. He has a sociology degree adn is getting a political science degree as well. His finace is getting her degree in computer science. They have already talked about it and they know that she will most likely be able to make more money with her career than he would be able to so if they have kids and want a parent to stay home, he will be the one staying home.

Well, to put it simply, women are the ones who make the free baby-food that supplies immunity and perfect-for-that-parent-child-pair antibodies, fat, calories, protein, etc. DH would love to be at home, and every so often I miss sitting in a cubicle, but the fact is, unless he wants to be parked outside my office for most of the day, waiting for the baby/toddler to be hungry, it's NOT going ot happen. (and then what's funny is that he's dealing with a pituitary tumor called a prolactinoma, where his body is creating prolactin, which is the hormone that makes milk...so it's actually possible that, if he wasn't treating it, he COULD make the milk)

I don't mean this to be condescending but I know that's how it sounded to me when I was in your shoes - you really can't know 100% for sure until you're there in the moment. You have no idea what life might throw at you that could make you reconsider that.

In college and chiropractic school, I figured that I would have my practice and work, and my husband would be at home. Figured that staying home with a child sounded horrendous; after all, my mom only did it until I was 4 and my brother was 2 and then she went back to work!

And then I realized...my mom's biggest dream was to have been home with us, she HAD TO go to work, there was simply no other choice. And if I was going to raise my babies in the normal natural easy simple way that I wanted to, it meant that I had to be immediately available to any babies/toddlers that entered my life, so that they could get their perfect food as soon as they needed it. And that meant...I was at home.

I sure do wish I could take back the "I'm just being honest" things I said to friends before that realization...things that were actually probably quite hurtful!

... whose passion is...you guessed it...HISTORY!! Oh and...does NOT want to become an educator!

While debt takes away options...an education is an investment. As with any investment you have to decide how much you can afford to invest and what the potential rewards are.

So what does he imagine doing?

Does he want to do something WITH history when he's graduated from college? Or does he just want to study it and know it inside an out?

My sister in law would want me to remind you that ANY major can get you into law school, absolutely any. So if he thought he had any desire to be an attorney, he could do the history thing for undergrad, and as long as he goes to a decent school (especially the last 2 years) and does really well and is a STAR for his LSATs, he could go that route.

And my SIL knows what she's talking about...her undergrad degree was in FRENCH. Should mention her degree is from Duke (as is her law degree, after a few years of working in an entirely unrelated-to-French-or-law field) (and her sister majored in Flute at UNC and is now a successful private-practice Financial Advisor!)



Which then leads me to the OP. Until 2 months ago I would say that the ONLY thing that had happened b/c of hubby's lack of a degree is that his starting salaries are lower than those with degrees. But then he was contacted by a headhunter, had an info talk with him, and the guy said that he couldn't apply (for a job he could do in his sleep, thanks to his very unique career path and work experiences) because he didn't even have a 2 year degree.

I have a BS and a doctorate, and I'm a homeschooling at home mother (I say "at home" but I should say "at home and at the Y" LOL). I don't feel that the education was wasted at all! I do sometimes wish that I had started at a 2 year, but I felt that that was 'beneath' me and refused. But living in the dorm, living on campus, getting away...those were great things, and turned a timid shy girl into someone who could operate independently (though my mom did get an 800 number for their home phone so that I could call whenever, and for however long, I wanted LOL).

But if your son isn't putting his foot down about community college, while not having many ideas on what he wants to do, let alone what he would do after graduation, he's not going to hurt anything by going to a CC to get his 2 year, and then go from there!

 

[MrsPete]

But why does that only pertain to girls? My brother is engaged. He has a sociology degree adn is getting a political science degree as well. His finace is getting her degree in computer science. They have already talked about it and they know that she will most likely be able to make more money with her career than he would be able to so if they have kids and want a parent to stay home, he will be the one staying home. But he is the one who has debt. He has probably about $40,000 in debt. She has no debt becaus eher parents paid for her college. So did he waste money if there is a chance that he wont be working but he has college debt?

Simple: I have only daughters. No sons.

Also, I'd direct you to my post from just one page ago:

I think your last statement, however, applies equally to men. They ALSO should think long and hard about how much student loan debt they're willing to take on. The expectation seems to be that a man will always work, but taking on debt removes his options just as much as it removes hers. It means he may feel obligated to take a higher-paying job far from family, or he may feel obligated to work more hours rather than have time at home with his young family. If I had a son, I'd do my best to help him avoid debt just as I will my daughters.

 

[Michelle and crew]

Simple: I have only daughters. No sons.

Also, I'd direct you to my post from just one page ago:

lol, I have only boys and I agree.

 

[herdtoDisney]

This is an interesting thread. Our ds is in college-dh and I were not encouraged to go to college. We encouraged ds (and are for all our kids) and he really wanted to go. In fact, I kind of wanted him to live at home and go to the CC (I could pay cash for that) but he got into a top school and got significant schloraship money. But, there is still a lot of $ to pay.

We pay what we can (essentially, the cost of CC) and he has to loan the rest. It was his choice, which I support but would not have made...that being said, he's studying electrical engineering, so he should get a good job eventually and pay it back. I did explain to him all the ramifications of the loans, but I can also see the benefits of the college too. So, it was his choice. I said though, you have to start and FINISH school if you're going to do this! He fully intends to and is doing well so far. The $ loans just scare me, but many people I have spoken to who went to college say that is how they did it.

 

[momblanch]

So what does he imagine doing?

Does he want to do something WITH history when he's graduated from college? Or does he just want to study it and know it inside an out?

My sister in law would want me to remind you that ANY major can get you into law school, absolutely any. So if he thought he had any desire to be an attorney, he could do the history thing for undergrad, and as long as he goes to a decent school (especially the last 2 years) and does really well and is a STAR for his LSATs, he could go that route.

And my SIL knows what she's talking about...her undergrad degree was in FRENCH. Should mention her degree is from Duke (as is her law degree, after a few years of working in an entirely unrelated-to-French-or-law field) (and her sister majored in Flute at UNC and is now a successful private-practice Financial Advisor!)

Bumpershoot: Funny you should ask. When I have asked him the same question, he says, "I see myself 20 yrs from now as one one of these guys on the History Channel, sitting in an easy chair, sporting an impressive mustache, telling you all about the military history of the US during the last two centuries." LOL! How's that for specific? He has a great sense of humor, but it really is what he enjoys. He has no desire to become an educator. Sooo....?

Which leads me to your next statement. Funny that you should say this also, because I have encouraged him to consider studying some aspect of the law. He is a decent writer and an avid reader, who often spends hours researching topics that interest him. I think it would be a good path for him, and still be able to tie in some of what he loves. We have discussed perhaps delving into Criminology with a minor in History, both of which would support an interest in Law.

 

[Colleen27]

But why does that only pertain to girls? My brother is engaged. He has a sociology degree adn is getting a political science degree as well. His finace is getting her degree in computer science. They have already talked about it and they know that she will most likely be able to make more money with her career than he would be able to so if they have kids and want a parent to stay home, he will be the one staying home. But he is the one who has debt. He has probably about $40,000 in debt. She has no debt becaus eher parents paid for her college. So did he waste money if there is a chance that he wont be working but he has college debt?

I know I'm sexist on this one. I think on an emotional/instinctive level this tends to be more of an issue for women than for men, simply because women generally have to do more balancing between work and home and are more inclined to want to be home. That is changing for some families, where the father takes that role as primary caregiver, but in general it is still more of a feminine issue.

But I don't think it pertains only to young women. It matters for men too; we have male friends who would like to change fields or start their own businesses and can't because they need the steady paycheck from their unsatisfying jobs to keep up with their loan payments. Debt limits options, regardless of gender, and I want my kids to be able to keep their options open to adapt to whatever life hands them.

I think we should be encouraging ALL of our students to look at education realistically. As I said in my first post on the thread, we're already turning out more grads than we have jobs that require degrees and it is starting to undermine the worth of that degree (especially in liberal arts fields). I'm not anti-college, for young women or men; I'm anti-debt. I think we're too accepting of college debt as "worth it" when many times for people attending college now and into the foreseeable future it very likely won't be, and I think we're too dismissive of non-college paths to career training.