CLIA Requesting Your Support to Urge Congress to Aid in the Return of Cruising in the United States

[ArielRae]

Cruise Lines International Association (CLIA) is asking for some help to get the US Government to lift the conditional sail order and allow cruising to resume in the United States by the beginning of July 2021. CLIA set up a webpage for anyone interested in voicing their opinion to their respective elected officials in Congress via email, phone, or twitter all via a form submission.

It has been roughly 5 months since the CDC issued the Conditional Sail Order and they have not provided the cruise lines with the necessary guidance required to take the next step in the multi-step path to a safe and gradual restart of the cruise industry. This was echoed by the leaders of 5 major cruise lines, including the President of Disney Cruise Line on Friday March 26th during a roundtable discussion at Port Canaveral.


Disney Cruise Line Blog Article Link:
https://disneycruiselineblog.com/20...-the-return-of-cruising-in-the-united-states/
CLIA Link:
https://cruising.org/en/clia-action-center

 

[hrhdhd]

I just sent mine . . .

 

[randumb0]

Cruises are probably the last thing on their minds

 

[Intr3pid]

They have not provided the cruise lines with the necessary guidance required to take the next step in the multi-step path to a safe and gradual restart of the cruise industry.

There is no proof of this marketing line. The CSO is pretty detailed - anyone who has read it can attest to it. It's heavy handed, sure, but it has a clear path to a restart. Cruise lines and the Florida ports just don't want to go through the trouble since a lower viral case load may just preempt its withdrawal.

There is a reason why CLIA is asking to lift the CSO - as opposed to saying "give us X piece of missing information".

 

[msturkie]

There is no proof of this marketing line. The CSO is pretty detailed - anyone who has read it can attest to it. It's heavy handed, sure, but it has a clear path to a restart. Cruise lines and the Florida ports just don't want to go through the trouble since a lower viral case load may just preempt its withdrawal.

There is a reason why CLIA is asking to lift the CSO - as opposed to saying "give us X piece of missing information".

Actually there is proof in the CSO itself. Regarding test sailings, there are 9 references to "technical instructions or orders." These technical instructions haven't been given yet and what the cruise lines are still waiting on.
Even the CDC says they haven't given guidance yet. My first post, so I guess I can't link yet, but from an article on Cruise Critic:

"The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) has stated it has yet to deliver necessary technical instructions to cruise lines and port operators, nearly four months after issuing its Framework for Conditional Sailing Order.

The order, which was issued on October 30, 2020 and replaced the long-standing "No-Sail Order" that the CDC had been extending since the start of the COVID-19 pandemic in March of last year, was widely seen as a framework under which the limited resumption of cruise activates within the United States could begin.

Now, nearly four months after its issuance with little to no progress in the interim, the CDC's Framework for Conditional Sailing is clearly the same as the previous "No Sail" orders that had originally been imposed on the cruise lines.

"Returning to passenger cruising is a phased approach, and our current focus is on the protection of crew and working with cruise lines to implement the initial phase requirements of testing all crew and developing onboard laboratory capacity," a CDC spokesperson told Cruise Critic in an email.

"Future orders and technical instructions will address additional activities, to include simulated voyages, conditional sailing, and restricted voyages to help cruise lines prepare for and return to passenger operations in a manner that mitigates COVID-19 risk among passengers and crew members."

 

[Snowwhyt]

Wonder if previously written “technical instructions and orders” that have not been offered to companies for compliance, might be held onto because the initial instructions showed things like at 8 foot plexiglass wall between every family at dinner. If cruises would’ve put those costly expenses in before restart of cruising but now not needed, or public complained about the rules could be worse then that of the mask mandate.
The written rules are from the previous administration? I believe a new administration would mean new guidance aimed at the safety of the American people, pretty sure the old “technical instructions and orders” are probably 6 foot distance and we’re going to 3 foot distances with vaccinations.
Rhetorical question...
could the previous administration guidelines, interested in control sometimes for political, popularity numbers or profitable advantages, be different than the current administration which chooses to rely on medical experts to create guidance for cruising?
Of course we don’t know why, but I would guess that anything that came out prior to January 20 went out with the bathwater. (see what I did there? Light hearted joke about Biden’s use of language?)

 

[hrhdhd]

Eh, if we were following the guidance from medical experts, schools would be open for face-to-face learning.

 

[Snowwhyt]

Eh, if we were following the guidance from medical experts, schools would be open for face-to-face learning.

I’m from the state that made the study about back to school possible. They were small schools that could offer big spaces. Not workable in big city’s because nobody has or can afford that kind of space. Schools that fit the models are open here. Some only one day a week, others a full week. One size does not fit all.

 

[Doofenshmirtz513]

Wonder if previously written “technical instructions and orders” that have not been offered to companies for compliance, might be held onto because the initial instructions showed things like at 8 foot plexiglass wall between every family at dinner. If cruises would’ve put those costly expenses in before restart of cruising but now not needed, or public complained about the rules could be worse then that of the mask mandate.
The written rules are from the previous administration? I believe a new administration would mean new guidance aimed at the safety of the American people, pretty sure the old “technical instructions and orders” are probably 6 foot distance and we’re going to 3 foot distances with vaccinations.
Rhetorical question...
could the previous administration guidelines, interested in control sometimes for political, popularity numbers or profitable advantages, be different than the current administration which chooses to rely on medical experts to create guidance for cruising?
Of course we don’t know why, but I would guess that anything that came out prior to January 20 went out with the bathwater. (see what I did there? Light hearted joke about Biden’s use of language?)

It is almost certainly the case that the change in administration at the very least has delayed the "technical orders and instructions". The options are 1) the Trump administration was working on them and was close but couldn't get them out before the changeover and the Biden administration is considering and revising them and maybe starting from scratch, 2) the Trump administration didn't have much done so the Biden admin is starting from scratch to write them, or 3) the Biden administration doesn't really care that much about the technical instructions and is content just to let the conditional order effectively act as a no sail order without issuing anything new that would have its fingerprints on it. (There's obviously some wrinkles possible around each of those as well).

I just don't think this is a priority for the administration so the decision makers aren't spending much time on it. And there's not much that the Governor of Florida can do about it, really, besides try to drum up publicity through events like this. Frankly, this is an area where the cruise line's structured avoidance of as much U.S. law as possible hurts them. It just doesn't build up much equity with the government to press for action on one of the few laws they can't avoid.

 

[Clojel]

Well this thread didn’t take long to go off the rails

 

[Intr3pid]

Actually there is proof in the CSO itself. Regarding test sailings, there are 9 references to "technical instructions or orders." These technical instructions haven't been given yet and what the cruise lines are still waiting on.
Even the CDC says they haven't given guidance yet. My first post, so I guess I can't link yet, but from an article on Cruise Critic:

"The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) has stated it has yet to deliver necessary technical instructions to cruise lines and port operators, nearly four months after issuing its Framework for Conditional Sailing Order.

The order, which was issued on October 30, 2020 and replaced the long-standing "No-Sail Order" that the CDC had been extending since the start of the COVID-19 pandemic in March of last year, was widely seen as a framework under which the limited resumption of cruise activates within the United States could begin.

Now, nearly four months after its issuance with little to no progress in the interim, the CDC's Framework for Conditional Sailing is clearly the same as the previous "No Sail" orders that had originally been imposed on the cruise lines.

"Returning to passenger cruising is a phased approach, and our current focus is on the protection of crew and working with cruise lines to implement the initial phase requirements of testing all crew and developing onboard laboratory capacity," a CDC spokesperson told Cruise Critic in an email.

"Future orders and technical instructions will address additional activities, to include simulated voyages, conditional sailing, and restricted voyages to help cruise lines prepare for and return to passenger operations in a manner that mitigates COVID-19 risk among passengers and crew members."

Not 9, there are 40+ references. And they are there because the CDC likes to control the orders by throwing something like this under every section:

"CDC may enforce any of the provisions of this framework through additional orders published in the Federal Register and issue additional technical instructions as needed."

OR

"CDC may issue additional technical instructions or orders regarding what measures cruise ship operators must take in the event that COVID-19 is detected in passengers or crew."

The possible issuance of these additional technical instructions don't prevent cruise lines to complete what is already in the CSO. For example, the initial phase (pages 36 to 40 of the CSO) requires cruise lines to:

1. Get all crew tested using RT-PCR tests at approved shoreside faciltiies
2. Install on-board testing facilities, including procuring enough tests and hiring trained medical staff
3. Set up shoreside testing for those embarking the ship

Very few ships have been in the US waters to go past this initial phase. (There are no additional instructions needed.) We are talking 200+ ships in the hands of the big three plus MSC, so it's no small expense. Instead, the cruise lines are looking at vaccinations and a lower viral caseload to eventually amend or reverse the order. This is smart - but also very risky if you end up rubbing things the wrong way and at a wrong time when the viral caseload is plateauing.

The correct approach here is avoid running a marketing campaign that gives the CDC any reason to dig into its own position. Instead, ask - publicly, if needed - for the information that is missing.

As they say, if you want sympathy, you have to act like a victim first!

 

[Husker Mike]

Actually there is proof in the CSO itself. Regarding test sailings, there are 9 references to "technical instructions or orders." These technical instructions haven't been given yet and what the cruise lines are still waiting on.
Even the CDC says they haven't given guidance yet. My first post, so I guess I can't link yet, but from an article on Cruise Critic:

"The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) has stated it has yet to deliver necessary technical instructions to cruise lines and port operators, nearly four months after issuing its Framework for Conditional Sailing Order.

The order, which was issued on October 30, 2020 and replaced the long-standing "No-Sail Order" that the CDC had been extending since the start of the COVID-19 pandemic in March of last year, was widely seen as a framework under which the limited resumption of cruise activates within the United States could begin.

Now, nearly four months after its issuance with little to no progress in the interim, the CDC's Framework for Conditional Sailing is clearly the same as the previous "No Sail" orders that had originally been imposed on the cruise lines.

"Returning to passenger cruising is a phased approach, and our current focus is on the protection of crew and working with cruise lines to implement the initial phase requirements of testing all crew and developing onboard laboratory capacity," a CDC spokesperson told Cruise Critic in an email.

"Future orders and technical instructions will address additional activities, to include simulated voyages, conditional sailing, and restricted voyages to help cruise lines prepare for and return to passenger operations in a manner that mitigates COVID-19 risk among passengers and crew members."

Call the CDC out on that, then. Demand that the CDC provide that guidance, or propose your own to prove that you are acting in good faith.

Arguing that it's over and that the CDC should just lift the orders is premature at this point.

 

[msturkie]

Not 9, there are 40+ references. And they are there because the CDC likes to control the orders by throwing something like this under every section:

"CDC may enforce any of the provisions of this framework through additional orders published in the Federal Register and issue additional technical instructions as needed."

OR

"CDC may issue additional technical instructions or orders regarding what measures cruise ship operators must take in the event that COVID-19 is detected in passengers or crew."

The possible issuance of these additional technical instructions don't prevent cruise lines to complete what is already in the CSO. For example, the initial phase (pages 36 to 40 of the CSO) requires cruise lines to:

1. Get all crew tested using RT-PCR tests at approved shoreside faciltiies
2. Install on-board testing facilities, including procuring enough tests and hiring trained medical staff
3. Set up shoreside testing for those embarking the ship

Very few ships have been in the US waters to go past this initial phase. (There are no additional instructions needed.) We are talking 200+ ships in the hands of the big three plus MSC, so it's no small expense. Instead, the cruise lines are looking at vaccinations and a lower viral caseload to eventually amend or reverse the order. This is smart - but also very risky if you end up rubbing things the wrong way and at a wrong time when the viral caseload is plateauing.

The correct approach here is avoid running a marketing campaign that gives the CDC any reason to dig into its own position. Instead, ask - publicly, if needed - for the information that is missing.

As they say, if you want sympathy, you have to act like a victim first!

I was only counting under the Minimum Standards for Simulated Voyages section, and I certainly don't doubt the 40+ number. I agree with your point about the messaging.

Call the CDC out on that, then. Demand that the CDC provide that guidance, or propose your own to prove that you are acting in good faith.

Arguing that it's over and that the CDC should just lift the orders is premature at this point.

I certainly agree with this as well

 

[Snowwhyt]

My opinion is it is 100% political at this point. The current administration (whoever is running it - it's definitely not Biden) wants to hurt Florida and its economy, as a means of hurting DeSantis. There is no other logical reason to keep the cruise industry shut down. In the places around the world where they have resumed, there have been no issues. So it can be done safely. Keeping the cruise industry shut down hurts any location that has a cruise port, but clearly hurts Florida the most - with Alaska (another state with Republican gov & senators) probably second most.

The pandemic is a medical problem with a variety of solutions, not all favorable, no chance ever of pleasing everybody. Cruising is a business struggling during a medical problem. (just like sold-out concerts and live theater) If every other country was cruising currently except for the US, I could agree as to it being solely political here. I believe Disney will not be the first in the docks to fill the ships. They will wait in the interest of image preservation but not political motivation. I’d consider that smart business, this way my Disney stock won’t drop. Although this will end up canceling a third cruise with Disney this year with the CDC Nov 1 date. So I do have a boxer in the ring.

 

[icc2515]

I think that I would be more likely to help the cruiseline industry if the major players would be American companies paying taxes in America and registering their ships in America. Funny how they are all complaining about the American rules preventing their foreign companies from making money. In case you didn't know it Carnival Corporation is incorporated in Panama, Royal Caribbean Liberia, and Norwegian Bermuda. Their ships (including Disney) are not even registered in America.

edited spelling

 

[mcd2745]

I think that I would be more likely to help the cruiseline industry if the major players would be American companies paying taxes in America and registering their ships in America. Funny how they are all complaining about the American rules preventing their foreign companies from making money. In case you didn't know it Carnival Corporation is incorporated in Panama, Royal Caribbean Liberia, and Norwegian Bermuda. Their ships (including Disney) are not even registered in America.

edited spelling

I understand that argument. But what about all the (American) small businesses and workers that rely on the cruise industry. From the porters to the restaurants and hotels near homeports, shuttle and ride share companies/drivers, travel agents, all the shore side employees of the cruise companies here in America. Letting the cruise industry get restarted benefits so many.

Also, the industry is not looking to restart with passengers until July, not immediately. By July, the number of adults who have not been vaccinated will be miniscule.

 

[icc2515]

I understand that argument. But what about all the (American) small businesses and workers that rely on the cruise industry. From the porters to the restaurants and hotels near homeports, shuttle and ride share companies/drivers, travel agents, all the shore side employees of the cruise companies here in America. Letting the cruise industry get restarted benefits so many.

Also, the industry is not looking to restart with passengers until July, not immediately. By July, the number of adults who have not been vaccinated will be miniscule.

I do hear what you are saying, I would say that the government needs to step in an offer training and other programs to help those people find other employment. I have been doing some beginning reading and it appears that cruise lines can start sailing earlier than Nov 1st, but they would prefer to not have to follow the rules to start sailing again from US ports. I can also tell you that the hotels near Port Canaveral are not hurting. I tried to book a room for this summer in Cocoa Beach and the prices were very high.

 

[tvguy]

It appears that 4 months into vaccinations starting, we are still under 15% of the population who have been vaccinated.
Hopefully more vaccine will be made available and we will meet the President's goal of a July 1st having secured enough vaccine for every American who wants it to get it..
Forget the CDC, until that happens, talking cruising resuming is a waste of time. And I am very worried about the increase in infections in the U.S. (thanks Spring Breakers) and the disaster some nations such as Brazil and France are in with covid right now.

 

[Snowwhyt]

I think that I would be more likely to help the cruiseline industry if the major players would be American companies paying taxes in America and registering their ships in America. Funny how they are all complaining about the American rules preventing their foreign companies from making money. In case you didn't know it Carnival Corporation is incorporated in Panama, Royal Caribbean Liberia, and Norwegian Bermuda. Their ships (including Disney) are not even registered in America.

edited spelling

Agree
Royal Caribbean also has Bahama registered ships which were required for their island purchase. At least so I heard, I haven’t seen it in writing.

If Disney wanted to they could also have one ship registered in America paying American taxes. Contracts could be made short term, they could do the cruise to nowhere as well as other countries. Make a thing of it for a few years. Cost prohibitive, but possible. That seems pretty desperate though, I see Disney is doing more of a long game.

 

[cgolf]

Cruises are probably the last thing on their minds

I disagree on this, as they have made a point to make it as difficult as possible for the cruise lines to get going that it really is impossible. At the same time allowing other things to open up. Early on in the pandemic cruise lines got a black eye, some of it was their doing, but not all. When ports wouldn't let passengers off a ship for weeks, of course it was going to spread onboard. Early on nobody knew the right thing to do, only in hindsight we can say things were mishandled. They are either anti cruise or holding what happened early in the pandemic against them, and to be honest ignoring other areas that were problems too.

The groups should be working together now, especially with the goal of early summer for full vaccination for all that want it. It is beyond silly that it is still out to November, even if it could be dropped at anytime. Maybe they could have moved it back to say August.

I’m from the state that made the study about back to school possible. They were small schools that could offer big spaces. Not workable in big city’s because nobody has or can afford that kind of space. Schools that fit the models are open here. Some only one day a week, others a full week. One size does not fit all.

While this is partially true, some schools haven't started back as early as others because the teachers have stronger leadership and were able to fight coming back to onsite learning. Sadly it really wasn't about the kids anymore. We have seen this here where some large schools were back before some schools that were a bit smaller by a fair amount of time. It isn't 100% onsite, but at least the kids could get onsite. Luckily my DD was in college and they were already setup for virtual learning before the pandemic.