Changes to a deed..Update post #9.. A change in thoughts?

[C.Ann]

Thank you all for trying to explain this a little better.. Legal/tax mumbo jumbo drives me crazy - which is why I would never do anything without going through an attorney..

A little more info may or may not help..

#1 I live in NY state.

#2 Although I only live here at the lake 7 to 8 months a year, it is considered my legal "home"..

#3 "Technically" - if you were to look at it, it would be considered a "camp".. No basement; no drilled well; no winterization; and there are only 3 rooms - bedroom, bathroom, combo kitchen/living area.. Most of you probably have a family room that is bigger than this whole place - LOL..

#4 My "beach"' is through a permit system - that I pay every year.. There has been an ongoing battle with the regulating district in an attempt to stop the automatic beach rights transfer when the property (camp) is sold and/or transferred.. If that were to go through, the value of a place at a lake you can't make use of would be zip.. There is a good chance that this will go through in 2011 - whereas any kind of transfer I make now (in 2010) would insure that the beach rights go to DD..

#5 Tax liability.. Would either of us be hit with that right now - or only if she were to sell the place at some future date? If it's at a future date, that's not a concern.. She will never sell the place (it's been in the family 63 years already) and eventually will go to her DD.. So when and where does the tax issue arise?

#6 I already have a will, but I would rather simplify things so they don't have to go through probate because all I really have left now (since I had to sell my "actual home" when my DH passed away) is: this place; money in the bank; my car (which I may eventually sell); and my personal belongings..

#7 I have life insurance that is more than sufficient to cover my burial expenses - especially since I decided to go with cremation - as opposed to a traditional funeral.. DD is the beneficiary..

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However, some of you have brought up valid concerns.. Such as her being in a car accident and someone coming after "half" of this place - if I just added her name to the deed.. Good point..

If it were transferred though - with a lifetime tenancy clause for me - under any circumstances, could I be forced to leave?

Medicaid: Well that's an interesting concept.. I would say that if anyone is concerned with a "look back period" they should do something right now to get the clock ticking so they're beyond that period when and if anything happened.. Do I think I'll end up in a nursing home within the next 7 years? I sure hope not - but on the other hand, I could have a stroke and end up there tomorrow..

The bottom line is that this place at the lake must remain in my family.. I don't care about anything else.. Take every dime I have.. Take my car.. I'll go live in a homeless shelter if need be.. But I will NOT see this place leave my family - nor will my DD, her DD, and even DD's DH.. It is THAT important to us..

Maybe I'm making a mistake by putting all of this "out here", but I know that there are some very nice, very intelligent posters here who really try to be helpful -and the rest? Well - I'll just assume that they're basically unhappy people that need a place to attack others and I'll forgive them and move on..

So - have I made anything clearer - or just muddied up the waters more?

Again - I will do nothing without consulting an attorney and having said attorney draw up the papers..

At this point, the POA is the least of my worries (in terms of how my DD and/or her DH would carry it out), but if I'm going to pay an attorney to set something up in regards to this place, I might as well do it all at the same time..

Thanks for yur patience and trying to help me understand this stuff..

I did look up that Federal Gift Tax thing on the IRS site last night and can I just tell you that it might as well have been written in Greek??

ETA: DD and her family will be coming up today and bringing their travel trailer home tomorrow (always a sad weekend for me ) and we will be discussing all of this before they leave..

 

[manning]

Just will it to whoever you want it to go to.

What I layed out in my previous post will apply to your property.

You can avoid probate by setting up a revocable trust and name whoever you trust as trustee upon your death. It will be their job to distribute the assets in your trust as directed in the trust.

Taxes would be when the property is sold.

 

[golfgal]

Never say never. If something comes up and they need to sell the place, you are MUCH better off transferring the house either to her when you die or transferring the place to a family trust (which might actually make more sense). Don't take the cheep way out on something like this-you WILL end up spending more in the end. Laws in NY might be different but if you have a will they probably WON'T have to go through probate. Probate usually happens when there is NO will and they courts have to decide who gets what.

 

[barkley]

Thank you all for trying to explain this a little better.. Legal/tax mumbo jumbo drives me crazy - which is why I would never do anything without going through an attorney..

A little more info may or may not help..

#1 I live in NY state.

#2 Although I only live here at the lake 7 to 8 months a year, it is considered my legal "home"..

#3 "Technically" - if you were to look at it, it would be considered a "camp".. No basement; no drilled well; no winterization; and there are only 3 rooms - bedroom, bathroom, combo kitchen/living area.. Most of you probably have a family room that is bigger than this whole place - LOL..

#4 My "beach"' is through a permit system - that I pay every year.. There has been an ongoing battle with the regulating district in an attempt to stop the automatic beach rights transfer when the property (camp) is sold and/or transferred.. If that were to go through, the value of a place at a lake you can't make use of would be zip.. There is a good chance that this will go through in 2011 - whereas any kind of transfer I make now (in 2010) would insure that the beach rights go to DD..

#5 Tax liability.. Would either of us be hit with that right now - or only if she were to sell the place at some future date? If it's at a future date, that's not a concern.. She will never sell the place (it's been in the family 63 years already) and eventually will go to her DD.. So when and where does the tax issue arise?

#6 I already have a will, but I would rather simplify things so they don't have to go through probate because all I really have left now (since I had to sell my "actual home" when my DH passed away) is: this place; money in the bank; my car (which I may eventually sell); and my personal belongings..

#7 I have life insurance that is more than sufficient to cover my burial expenses - especially since I decided to go with cremation - as opposed to a traditional funeral.. DD is the beneficiary..

-----------------

However, some of you have brought up valid concerns.. Such as her being in a car accident and someone coming after "half" of this place - if I just added her name to the deed.. Good point..

If it were transferred though - with a lifetime tenancy clause for me - under any circumstances, could I be forced to leave?

Medicaid: Well that's an interesting concept.. I would say that if anyone is concerned with a "look back period" they should do something right now to get the clock ticking so they're beyond that period when and if anything happened.. Do I think I'll end up in a nursing home within the next 7 years? I sure hope not - but on the other hand, I could have a stroke and end up there tomorrow..

The bottom line is that this place at the lake must remain in my family.. I don't care about anything else.. Take every dime I have.. Take my car.. I'll go live in a homeless shelter if need be.. But I will NOT see this place leave my family - nor will my DD, her DD, and even DD's DH.. It is THAT important to us..

Maybe I'm making a mistake by putting all of this "out here", but I know that there are some very nice, very intelligent posters here who really try to be helpful -and the rest? Well - I'll just assume that they're basically unhappy people that need a place to attack others and I'll forgive them and move on..

So - have I made anything clearer - or just muddied up the waters more?

Again - I will do nothing without consulting an attorney and having said attorney draw up the papers..

At this point, the POA is the least of my worries (in terms of how my DD and/or her DH would carry it out), but if I'm going to pay an attorney to set something up in regards to this place, I might as well do it all at the same time..

Thanks for yur patience and trying to help me understand this stuff..

I did look up that Federal Gift Tax thing on the IRS site last night and can I just tell you that it might as well have been written in Greek??

ETA: DD and her family will be coming up today and bringing their travel trailer home tomorrow (always a sad weekend for me ) and we will be discussing all of this before they leave..

i would suggest talking to both a good elder law attorney first. explain what your goals are estate/medicaid wise, tell them about your concerns re. the beach rights and ask what they need to know from a real estate perspective. see if they have a relationship with a good real estate attorney who can work with you and the elder law attorney to set up everything in best manner to achieve your goals-both the current ones re. the beach permit, and the future ones re. estate planning.


even if the whole issue of the beach permit was not occuring, it's probably a good idea to talk to an estate planning person because when i just took a peek at my nolo guide for executors i learned that it does not take much to require probate in new york-assets (excluding real estate) of $30,000 or more in value.

btw-re. your car, one thing i would suggest even if you are considering selling it, just because you never know what can happen-see if new york lets you put what is basicly a p.o.d. on your title, and if so list your dd or whomever you choose. this was the single most time consuming and complicated issue we had to deal with on mil's estate. in the state she lived in, her car could not be transferred to sell (or be owned by her beneficiaries) for over 45 days, and during that time the car had to remain insured under that state's minimum insurance requirements. the p.i.t.a. was that state would not let a non registered owner insure the car, and technicaly a deceased person could not hold insurance-so it ended up an awful mess just trying to keep that car legal and stored.

 

[barkley]

Never say never. If something comes up and they need to sell the place, you are MUCH better off transferring the house either to her when you die or transferring the place to a family trust (which might actually make more sense). Don't take the cheep way out on something like this-you WILL end up spending more in the end. Laws in NY might be different but if you have a will they probably WON'T have to go through probate. Probate usually happens when there is NO will and they courts have to decide who gets what.

a will does'nt prevent probate in most states. it's strictly driven by the assetts/property the deceased owned at the time of death.

mil thought she was going to avoid it with a will, and we just NARROWLY avoided it. she had a will drawn up but was not advised to put a p.o.d. on her savings and checking accounts. between what was in it at the time of death, what direct deposited on the date of death (pensions), and what she (checks came in her name) got refunded from apartment security deposit, renters and car insurance cancellations-she was just under the $100,000 mark her state has set.

what infuriates dh and i was that she paid a lawyer who should have advised her of this but we believe the lawyer was angling to push the estate into probate and earn a big fee. the first words out of the lawyer's mouth when dh went to retrieve the will were "here's the contract for me to do the probate on your mom's estate"


a second family member in a different state had no will at all at the time of his death, but his estate would have avoided probate entirely if he had just remembered to put a p.o.d. on one remaining bank account (he had p.o.d.'s on everything else, but he forgot to do the one which was just over that state's amount, so even though his surviving parent was the only one who was legal to inherit it-they are going through the probate process now, which the lawyers tell us would have been totaly unneccesary even absent a will with the same p.o.d. info. he had on his other accounts).

 

[C.Ann]

i would suggest talking to both a good elder law attorney first. explain what your goals are estate/medicaid wise, tell them about your concerns re. the beach rights and ask what they need to know from a real estate perspective. see if they have a relationship with a good real estate attorney who can work with you and the elder law attorney to set up everything in best manner to achieve your goals-both the current ones re. the beach permit, and the future ones re. estate planning.


even if the whole issue of the beach permit was not occuring, it's probably a good idea to talk to an estate planning person because when i just took a peek at my nolo guide for executors i learned that it does not take much to require probate in new york-assets (excluding real estate) of $30,000 or more in value.

btw-re. your car, one thing i would suggest even if you are considering selling it, just because you never know what can happen-see if new york lets you put what is basicly a p.o.d. on your title, and if so list your dd or whomever you choose. this was the single most time consuming and complicated issue we had to deal with on mil's estate. in the state she lived in, her car could not be transferred to sell (or be owned by her beneficiaries) for over 45 days, and during that time the car had to remain insured under that state's minimum insurance requirements. the p.i.t.a. was that state would not let a non registered owner insure the car, and technicaly a deceased person could not hold insurance-so it ended up an awful mess just trying to keep that car legal and stored.

a will does'nt prevent probate in most states. it's strictly driven by the assetts/property the deceased owned at the time of death.

mil thought she was going to avoid it with a will, and we just NARROWLY avoided it. she had a will drawn up but was not advised to put a p.o.d. on her savings and checking accounts. between what was in it at the time of death, what direct deposited on the date of death (pensions), and what she (checks came in her name) got refunded from apartment security deposit, renters and car insurance cancellations-she was just under the $100,000 mark her state has set.

what infuriates dh and i was that she paid a lawyer who should have advised her of this but we believe the lawyer was angling to push the estate into probate and earn a big fee. the first words out of the lawyer's mouth when dh went to retrieve the will were "here's the contract for me to do the probate on your mom's estate"


a second family member in a different state had no will at all at the time of his death, but his estate would have avoided probate entirely if he had just remembered to put a p.o.d. on one remaining bank account (he had p.o.d.'s on everything else, but he forgot to do the one which was just over that state's amount, so even though his surviving parent was the only one who was legal to inherit it-they are going through the probate process now, which the lawyers tell us would have been totaly unneccesary even absent a will with the same p.o.d. info. he had on his other accounts).

Thanks for sharing all of this info.. We had a long talk this weekend - and as is often the case, 3 heads are better than one - and actually thought about some scenarios we hadn't previously considered..

So - long story short - I will be seeing an attorney sometime in the near future to find out what my options are.. Will then talk it over with the involved parties and make the wisest choice from a legal stand point of everyone involved..

It was really a good idea having this lengthy conversation as it brought some other issues to the forefront as well.. Things that DD and her DH have to get in order - and issues that DD's DH needs to discuss with his parents since he's an only child and they're getting up there in age too (10 years older than I am)..

Thanks to everyone for your contributions to the thread..