Celebrity Infinity crashes into Ketchikan Dock

[Maggie'sMom]

@truck1 @Tonka's Skipper I see frequent references to "class" in your posts here. I take it that is a term related to some maritime or insurance authority. Can you fill me in more?

I'd like to know as well. I find truck1's and Tonka's Skipper's posts to be fascinating anytime they are sharing their knowledge of ships.

 

[IBelieveInTheMagic]

From FB so hope the link is ok Not sure how long this will be in effect or for those booked with DCL for the Bering Sea Crab Fishermans Tour (we booked direct).
https://www.facebook.com/BeringSeaCrabFishermensTour/posts/10153723711774072

Heather

 

[lovedisneycruise]

I'd like to know as well. I find truck1's and Tonka's Skipper's posts to be fascinating anytime they are sharing their knowledge of ships.

Me too! I am following this thread with great interest. I am always fascinated while on a cruise to watch the docking and un-docking (??) when leaving the port. Usually I do this from either the top deck or deck four. On my last cruise, I was on deck four watching the ship leave Cozumel and a gentleman nearby told me he had been in the Navy and proceeded to explain to me how detailed the computer navigation was on these cruise ships that made it so much easier to pull in or out from ports compared to boats he had been on. After reading this thread, its apparent to me that there is still a lot of human skill required too!

I also find this thread to be a good reminder that we shouldn't *itch or moan if the captain decides it's unsafe to dock at a port during our cruise. I would have been completely frightened on that ship if I heard or felt the impact. Very glad that no one was injured or worse, especially on the dock.

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

Class is the vessels *Classification society*. These organizations provide expert design, maintenance, safety and compliance to regulations and rules/requirements and inspections service to the vessels owners, insurance companies and any group with an interest in the vessels operation.

There are 7 major ones, Lloyd's Registry, British, Det Norse Verites, Norway, American Bureau of Shipping, German Lloyd's, NKK, Japan, Hellenic, Greek, Bureaus Veritas, French and many other small ones, most usually associated with a country. These societies employ marine/ship surveyors, and many types of engineers and experts in many fields of ship design, building and operation. They work together with naval designers and shipyards to make sure the vessel to be built is well designed for its purpose and full fills all international safety, structural and operations requirements.

After the vessel is certified and all certificates are issued showing the vessel is in good order and full filled all requirements and is in operation they set up regular inspections and surveys of the vessel to make sure all international rules and regulations are being follow, proper maintenance and inspections and compliance records are in order. The class certificates are proof to all inspections groups, including Coast Guards, that the vessel is ok!

With cases like this with the infinity, where there is some damage, the class works with the owners, shipyard, various surveyors to set up the repair requirement. However the class requirements for the repairs is the final one. They have many detailed requirements for repairs. These include the proper grade of steel, size plate inserts, proper weld type and weld passes. All equipment and parts being used must pass class inspection and requirements.

Anything I missed Truck1?


AKK

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

In the close up that jdb provided, look to the left of the tin can look. It looks too clean and straight to be opened up by the impact. But at the same time, I don't see where it would have been welded either. Looking at it now, I cant tell if that's part of the frame, or heavy cables in the center of the opening.

Thinking about where they are, and where they are on the itin,realistically, it was probably easier to send the ship with a 1 off, limited time travel certificate, then it would be to leave her there, take up limited dock space, and wait on new plates etc to come from Vancouver, when her next stop was Vancouver. Iirc correctly, there is a shipyard there in Vancouver, and they should have the ability to do a better fix on it, then they would in Alaska.

We need better photos and details.

I saw a rumour, the line is preparing for repairs in Vancouver. This does make sense. The line has detailed plans and the yard could have a insert plate cut, shaped and rolled and ready to go. All equipment needed set up and ready as well. This would save a great amount of time.


AKK

 

[Maggie'sMom]

Class is the vessels *Classification society*. These organizations provide expert design, maintenance, safety and compliance to regulations and rules/requirements and inspections service to the vessels owners, insurance companies and any group with an interest in the vessels operation.

There are 7 major ones, Lloyd's Registry, British, Det Norse Verites, Norway, American Bureau of Shipping, German Lloyd's, NKK, Japan, Hellenic, Greek, Bureaus Veritas, French and many other small ones, most usually associated with a country. These societies employ marine/ship surveyors, and many types of engineers and experts in many fields of ship design, building and operation. They work together with naval designers and shipyards to make sure the vessel to be built is well designed for its purpose and full fills all international safety, structural and operations requirements.

After the vessel is certified and all certificates are issued showing the vessel is in good order and full filled all requirements and is in operation they set up regular inspections and surveys of the vessel to make sure all international rules and regulations are being follow, proper maintenance and inspections and compliance records are in order. The class certificates are proof to all inspections groups, including Coast Guards, that the vessel is ok!

With cases like this with the infinity, where there is some damage, the class works with the owners, shipyard, various surveyors to set up the repair requirement. However the class requirements for the repairs is the final one. They have many detailed requirements for repairs. These include the proper grade of steel, size plate inserts, proper weld type and weld passes. All equipment and parts being used must pass class inspection and requirements.

Anything I missed Truck1?


AKK

Thank you for the detailed explanation!

 

[truck1]

We need better photos and details.

I saw a rumour, the line is preparing for repairs in Vancouver. This does make sense. The line has detailed plans and the yard could have a insert plate cut, shaped and rolled and ready to go. All equipment needed set up and ready as well. This would save a great amount of time.


AKK

That we do. I did see where she has more then 1 hole in her hull. Theres probably 2 or 3 that I could see from a few different pictures. Theres another long rub mark, with an opening along what would prob be deck 2 or 3 that crosses a small porthole window. So theres a lot that Celebrity/RCCL is holding back.

 

[truck1]

Class is the vessels *Classification society*. These organizations provide expert design, maintenance, safety and compliance to regulations and rules/requirements and inspections service to the vessels owners, insurance companies and any group with an interest in the vessels operation.

There are 7 major ones, Lloyd's Registry, British, Det Norse Verites, Norway, American Bureau of Shipping, German Lloyd's, NKK, Japan, Hellenic, Greek, Bureaus Veritas, French and many other small ones, most usually associated with a country. These societies employ marine/ship surveyors, and many types of engineers and experts in many fields of ship design, building and operation. They work together with naval designers and shipyards to make sure the vessel to be built is well designed for its purpose and full fills all international safety, structural and operations requirements.

After the vessel is certified and all certificates are issued showing the vessel is in good order and full filled all requirements and is in operation they set up regular inspections and surveys of the vessel to make sure all international rules and regulations are being follow, proper maintenance and inspections and compliance records are in order. The class certificates are proof to all inspections groups, including Coast Guards, that the vessel is ok!

With cases like this with the infinity, where there is some damage, the class works with the owners, shipyard, various surveyors to set up the repair requirement. However the class requirements for the repairs is the final one. They have many detailed requirements for repairs. These include the proper grade of steel, size plate inserts, proper weld type and weld passes. All equipment and parts being used must pass class inspection and requirements.

Anything I missed Truck1?


AKK

That's about it. There basically a neutral 3rd party overseer for lack of a better description. In theory they should be impartial, but it doesn't always work out that way.

 

[truck1]

Ive counted 3 holes so far. These 2 plus the original one jdb posted:

 

[jdb in AZ]

Comments from a cruise law web site:

From "Tony R": The ship didn't "drift" into the dock; the impact was very evident on board...everyone was jarred and knew something wrong had just happened. There were no immediate announcements as to what happened for a little while, then reports were more frequent. Needless to say, the Ketchikan port of call was a bust and all excursions were cancelled...the cruise line gave all a small credit for everyone's loss of this part of our cruise. We're on our way back now to Vancouver and it is very concerning to learn that there was a hole above water line as result from the impact, we learned this via reading news reports from internet as well as by speaking to crew members...none of this was divulged to the passengers at any time...only that "repairs have been made". Panic control I guess...The captain did address everyone over the intercom and apologized for what happened. Glad nobody was hurt, it's obvious it could have been much worse. Many are wondering why in the world we were pulling into dock with such bad storm conditions? Opposed to waiting out in the bay until things got better? Well...guess we'll never know that answer to that one.


From Kevin Morris: I was sitting in the pilot house of our boat watching as this happened. We were moored at a dock on the city float directly behind the dolphin piling that took the brunt of the impact, so I had a front-row seat.

It was clear for a long time (at least a copule of minutes) that the approach was bad. The vessel was coming MUCH faster than the ships we've been watching come and go in berth 3 all week. The crash was incredibly violent. At least one of the enormous (~3 ft diameter) cylindrical metal pilings supporting the dolphin sheared off. The entire dolphin went about 3 feet up on impact and came back down completely out of place. The gangway broke loose and fell into the water. Apparently the longshoremen waiting in the berth to receive the ship saw that things were going wrong and got out of the way, so nobody was injured. Usually, there are people standing on the gangways to catch the lines when a ship docks. One of the gangways that usually has people broke and fell into the water.

I don't believe the wind was the problem. We were measuring 40 knot gusts on our boat before the incident, but the wind direction was a headwind for the ship's approach and slightly off-dock, so the wind should have been slowing the ship and pushing it away from the berth. I heard from someone that they dropped an anchor a few hundred yards before they hit, probably trying to slow the approach. I didn't see that myself, so I can't verify it.

I would not be surprised if this turned out to be a mechanical failure, maybe another problem with the notorious Rolls-Royce Mermaid pods that these ships use to maneuver. This was not just a "slightly hard" arrival at the berth. The vessel was clearly out of control and struggling for awhile before the impact.

 

[lovedisneycruise]

What does the above poster mean by "notorious Rolls-Royce mermaid pods?"
Are these known for problems with the big ships? I thought I recalled in an earlier post by truck1 saying that DCL does NOT have these-? Is that a good thing?

( I know nothing about the steering mechanisms or propulsion of boats or ships, just curious about all of this.)

 

[aroundtheriverbend]

Not the greatest view, but here the infinity is leaving the Vancouver port. Can definitely see the dent. Was scheduled for 4:30 I think, left about 5:25.

 

[truck1]

What does the above poster mean by "notorious Rolls-Royce mermaid pods?"
Are these known for problems with the big ships? I thought I recalled in an earlier post by truck1 saying that DCL does NOT have these-? Is that a good thing?

( I know nothing about the steering mechanisms or propulsion of boats or ships, just curious about all of this.)

Theres 2 types of propulsion in the world. Theres Azipods, and theres traditional prop rudder arrangements. DCL has prop and rudder, and lots of ships use Azipods (pods for short.)

A pod is basically a electric motor, and propeller shaft all rolled in to 1 combined unit. Theres 2 major makers of pods. Rolls Royce and I forget the other off hand but I want to say Fincantieri has a major hand in it.

The advantages are that the unit swivels 360 degrees, and can be used as both main propulsion but also side thrusters as the pod can be pointed anywhere along a 360 degree line. They also don't take up as much space as a traditional prop rudder combo.

The disadvantage of the pod system is that they are notorious for failing early. They are designed with a 5 year service life (to coincide with dry dock schedules) but seldom make it past 3. Part of it is design and part of it is the way they are used. Theres 2 major issues with pods. 1 is they they work is the prop faces forward and basically pulls the ship thru the water. This puts enormous strain on certain parts of the bearings which is why 99.99 percent of the time a pod failure is due to the bearings wearing out prematurely and contaminating the lube oil system. The other problem is that because the unit is capable of rotating 360 degrees, theres collector rings to supply power, and they are also known to fail. Once a pod is deemed failed, theres nothing that can be done. Time to put the ship in drydock and its typically about a 10 day job just to swap a pod with a new one or about the same length of time to rebuild the failed pod.

Carnival, Cunard, Holland America are among the big name cruise lines that got big money back from 1 of the pod makers because they were so unreliable. Its a little better now, but pod failures are not uncommon. Not as much as they were when fist made, but they still fail with alarming frequency. The Allure of the Seas recently went into drydock a year early because of a pod failure. I want to say that was Jan of 15.

DCL uses a prop rudder assembly. The main advantage is that no matter what happens, 99% of the parts that can fail, can be fixed in the field. Theres less to go wrong, Props can be changed out underwater, even individual blades can be swapped out. The disadvantage is that they take more space, and cost a little bit more then pods. One of the main cost increase is that prop rudder ships, need at least 2 thrusters in the stern, for sideways motion, that the pods don't need.

 

[lovedisneycruise]

Truck1, thanks so much for the detailed explanation! It sounds like Disney was smart NOT to put these pods on their ships.

One more question… In your or Tonka skipper's opinion, could pod failure be what caused this crash, or would the ship be unable to sail now if that was the case?

 

[Flossbolna]

I kind of think that these pictures should be posted every time someone is upset that their DCL ship cannot dock at Castaway Cay. I rather would miss my beach day than have to sail on a ship with a gash in its side! Even if I know that the repairs have been sanctioned by the class.

 

[truck1]

Truck1, thanks so much for the detailed explanation! It sounds like Disney was smart NOT to put these pods on their ships.

One more question… In your or Tonka skipper's opinion, could pod failure be what caused this crash, or would the ship be unable to sail now if that was the case?

Your Welcome. Keep in mind too that when the Magic class was being designed, is when the 1st generation of the pods were out, and having issues and there was threats and lawsuits fying, so at that time, DCL made a good move to stay away from the pods.

As far as a pod failure,I don't think so. Im fairly certain both pods were running normally. And an I witness report said the ship was almost bow on to the wind. It can gust all it wants but bow on theres not much effect on a ship.
I have a couple of thoughts that are running thru my mind and the majority involve human error. Theres 2 or 3 that I can think of that a mechanical issue caused the problems. Not necessarily the pods, but a mechanical issue some where else on the ship. Without knowing all of the conditions that the Infinity faced coming in, and who was on the bridge doing what, and what became known when, at this point, Im only guessing and speculating, and I don't want to 2nd guess the bridge crew, until I see some facts as to what happened and when.

 

[RAD]

On our first cruise on the Dream during the meet the crew meeting I asked why Disney didn't go with the pods and the response was reliability, they wanted a proven technology.

 

[summerskye]

Wow. This has been very educational. Thanks to all. The best part is the fact that it is being explained in a way that regular people can understand. Again, thats to all for taking the time to share.

 

[cruisehopeful]

I was on the Wonder when this happened. The wind was very strong. Our ship was leaning to the side throughout dinner. It was like walking up and down hill when walking across the ship. It was strange, but I figured it much have been a strong wind.

When we docked in Ketchikan the next day, a tour salesperson told me he saw the Celebrity crash into the dock. He said it looked like it was going to take a building, but the anchor was thrown down and pilot steered the best he could until it crashed. He said that it was the Ketchikan pilot who was driving the ship, not the Celebrity captain. I saw the downed dock. A tour operator told me the ships scheduled to dock there will have to anchor and tender and that will mess up all the tour times for the rest of the season. I was also told that most of the excursions were already cancelled that day (prior to the crash) because the winds were so strong.

 

[truck1]

I was on the Wonder when this happened. The wind was very strong. Our ship was leaning to the side throughout dinner. It was like walking up and down hill when walking across the ship. It was strange, but I figured it much have been a strong wind.

When we docked in Ketchikan the next day, a tour salesperson told me he saw the Celebrity crash into the dock. He said it looked like it was going to take a building, but the anchor was thrown down and pilot steered the best he could until it crashed. He said that it was the Ketchikan pilot who was driving the ship, not the Celebrity captain. I saw the downed dock. A tour operator told me the ships scheduled to dock there will have to anchor and tender and that will mess up all the tour times for the rest of the season. I was also told that most of the excursions were already cancelled that day (prior to the crash) because the winds were so strong.

Not out of the realm of impossibility, but I wouldn't take the tour salespersons word for it. The port will rearrange the ships as they come in, based on need. Theres 3 other berths there and the only time its an issue is if there are more then 3 ships in.