Can other DVC members explain?

[princessdawn2011]

There may be some flaming, but why do I see people complain about what DVC, seeming it's an undesirable part of Disney?

I think we (as members) helped to build & maintain beautiful resorts and are a great source of income for Disney properties & parks in general.

Thank you for any information in advance

 

[vicki_c]

I don't actually know what you are referring to, I have never experienced any negative reaction at Disney or from non DVC members for being a DVC member.

But it does seem like a post trying to solicit trouble - but here on the DVC boards we don't usually bash each other for being members, so not sure what kind of answers you would get here anyway.

 

[DVCconvert]

but why do I see people complain about what DVC

''
I think in general, they're either those who don't understand it, or those who have unrealistic expectation from it.

 

[AKLFan3]

I think in general, they're either those who don't understand it, or those who have unrealistic expectation from it.

I think this is a good point. I remember 6 years ago, my mom and I were staying at BWI, (this was before we became DVC members), and we were at the concierge desk asking a CM a few questions. Another guest suddenly stormed over to the desk, interrupted our conversation with the CM and said rather rudely, "I am staying in a villa and we have a view of the parking lot! That isn't what I asked for!" The CM quickly told her, "we can't help you with that here" and then turned back to my mother and resumed the conversation.

My mom and I later thought that DVC probably wasn't a good thing to buy into because we would likely always get stuck with a parking lot view. But we said this in ignorance because we never had taken a DVC tour and clearly did not know that everyone can book a certain view, provided you have the appropriate number of points. I thought the lady who interrupted us was quite rude, but I also did not think that she was necessarily representative of the type of guests who are DVC members. We have (happily) been DVC members for 3 years, and we know that it was the right choice for us. But I can also see how maybe some people think DVC is a bad idea if they have that fleeting encounter with an angry guest.

 

[Chuck S]

I think there are people who aren't members that think of DVC, and other higher end timeshares as "just another timeshare." They relate it to their past past experiences with timeshares, with high pressure sales, mass mailings promising you have definately "won" a yacht, round the world trip, $5000 in cash, or (most likely) the genuine diamond that is basically pressed diamond dust and woth about a $1.

Also, some timeshares would stick their members with expensive "special assessments" on a fairly routing basis.

And there are still a lot of timeshares that continue to do business that way. But over the last 20 to 25 years the industry has also seen reputable timeshares come into the marketplace, like Marriott, Hilton and Disney.

Then there are the "radio and TV financial gurus" that always timeshares are not something to be involved in, at all, ever.

 

[tjkraz]

There are a couple different (flawed, IMO) lines-of-thinking which seem to persist among non-members.

1. Disney keeps building DVC resorts and that takes money away from theme park attraction development. Yes, Disney does always seem to be building a new DVC resort, but that's only because the DVCs are profit centers. When they spend $100 million on Bay Lake Tower, it's because they stand to see revenues of $800M - $1 Billion on that project.

There's absolutely no reason to think that $100M spent on a DVC would go toward new attractions if not for DVC. Different budgets. Different goals.

2. Disney keeps cutting operating costs and maintenance at the theme parks because DVC provides them with a guaranteed stream of return customers. While DVC owners are somewhat obligated to return to WDW year-after-year, we are a pretty small segment of guests in the parks on any given day. DVC villas only account for 15% of all on-site hotel/villa accommodations--even less if you include the Dolphin, Swan and DTD area hotels. Then you've got tens-of-thousands more locals and off-site guests in the parks on any given day.

I'm not going to say that Disney isn't making cuts, but they aren't making cuts simply because DVC members will continue to make the parks profitable. They are cutting because they can, and all groups (Disney hotel guests, locals, off-site guests AND DVC members) will continue to visit.

Those seem to be the two big issues. Other people have a specific dislike for DVC developments. Some hate the Bay Lake Tower because of the location or what it's done to the skyline. There's already been some hatred toward the rumored Grand Floridian addition just because it will fill the long empty space between the GF and Wedding Pavilion.

 

[princessdawn2011]

Tim-that's what I thought. I knew it was something financial, but was unsure why the dislike on other boards when things are being developed. Thank-you!

Sorry for being unclear to everyone else.

To all other response posts: thanks for taking the time!

And bad behavior is bad behavior, that guest that ran up to the desk and cut-in, was just plain rude.

 

[Greysword]

2. Disney keeps cutting operating costs and maintenance at the theme parks because DVC provides them with a guaranteed stream of return customers. ...

I'm not going to say that Disney isn't making cuts, but they aren't making cuts simply because DVC members will continue to make the parks profitable. They are cutting because they can, and all groups (Disney hotel guests, locals, off-site guests AND DVC members) will continue to visit.

Wow, this is pretty interesting; because, it is my observation from the DVC boards that we (the DIS DVC group) seem to feel the complete opposite!

That is, I've observed the general sentiment on here to be that Disney has created the DDP (and free dining), slashed room rates, and cut back on staff and general quality due to fewer non-DVC resort guests. The sentiment continues to extrapolate that the net effect is unjustly having a negative impact on DVC members, who do provide WDW resorts with a foundation of guests that provide significant support during the "tough times", which is why WDW management seems to want more DVC guests (through building more and more DVC resorts).

Different points of view depending on what side of the fence a person is on, it seems. However, I don't understand the non-DVC visitor's point of view, as Disney is not one to sit on their laurels for very long; doing this just doesn't seem to make economic sense.

 

[tjkraz]

Different points of view depending on what side of the fence a person is on, it seems.

Very true and I agree with many of your points.

I'll add that I didn't mean to imply that ALL non-members share those sentiments. They are simply points-of-view that are expressed repeatedly in certain circles.

But it does seem that perspective plays a big role in it.

To a non-member, Disney keeps cutting because we pesky DVC members are guaranteed to keep coming back regardless. To a member, Disney keeps cutting because they have to offer lower prices and more incentives to get cash guests in the doors.

In reality there may be some element of truth to both but neither group is solely responsible.

 

[JWG]

I would argue there are several DVC owners who don't understand what they purchased (note the several, "why doesn't DVC get free dining" threads). They then complain when it's not what they want it to be.

Most noticeably for me is the belief that DVC is somehow comparable to and better than staying in a deluxe hotel on cash from an ameneties and treatment perspective. That, somewhow, not getting daily mousekeeping or getting pampered as though you're at the Grand Floridian or having a pristine room that looks like it was just put into service for your is a failure of the program.

While expensive, DVC is NOT a "cater to high society" membership club. It's a timeshare. It's prepaid accommodations same as any other timeshare. I think that gets forgotten because people expect Disney to give you something for spending so much money. I think some folks hold DVC to a different standard than other timeshares.

 

[Dean]

There may be some flaming, but why do I see people complain about what DVC, seeming it's an undesirable part of Disney?

I think we (as members) helped to build & maintain beautiful resorts and are a great source of income for Disney properties & parks in general.

Thank you for any information in advance

Obviously there are many directions and specific topics one could go to here. I don't think of it as DVC being an undesirable part of Disney but as a captive audience where they don't have to cont to court the patrons. DVC is likely Disney's best friend and worst enemy, much like the in-laws. They are great when things are slow and a drain on other profits when things are busier. You've also got to totally separate sales and resort usage, they are essentially unrelated as Disney is concerned.

I also find many DVC members over value their importance to Disney, exhibiting the entitlement mentality far too often. Just watch any complaint thread where someone threatens to sell, like it makes any difference to DVC/DVD if a portion of us sell. All they care about from that direction is that someone pays the dues and honestly, that's all they should care about other than appropriate management of the resorts themselves. Many seem to expect more and better perks as if it's a right and they are being harmed if they don't get them or a non guaranteed perk is removed or changed. Just see the thread's on reallocation and valet parking as good examples of unrealistic and unreasonable expectations of many members.

 

[Micca]

I became tired of over-thinking vacations a long time ago. We love WDW, go there often, and owning DVC is more economical for us than the WDW resorts.
No problems

 

[Greysword]

I also find many DVC members over value their importance to Disney, exhibiting the entitlement mentality far too often.

This is an excellent point, and I'm sure I have drifted across this line occasionally, despite knowing full well the corporate culture and position the executives have for the guests (in general).

In fact, DVC seems to fit most closely with Walt's initial idea to the Florida legislature, in that WDW would have "residents" to fulfill the mandate of the Reedy Creek district charter, but these "residents" would have no municipal rights as a citizen. Instead, the district would be governed by the corporation, and the "residents" would be obligated to accept the mandates handed down to them.

DVC offers deeded property, providing a consist set of owners that do not live in the district, but own property in it. By default, these "residents" (aka DVC owners) would abdicate their rights of governing to a representative body (the DVC board), since they couldn't possibly be burdened with the day-to-day requirements of the local community. Thus the corporation is in charge, and the citizens are generally ok with it.

To loop it back to Dean's argument, as DVC owners, we feel a sense of ownership and community in WDW, since we purchased property and have a legal document affording us certain rights as property owners. As such, many owners feel they have the same voice (and rights) as they do at home, which likely causes this sense of importance and entitlement at WDW.

However in reality (as we of the Dis DVC community know), this is false since we do abdicate our rights to a representative board to govern on our behalf. In theory, we are able to affect change via the election of board members, but it would take an extremely significant percentage of the member population to project the same message. In the interim, we allow the WDC to do what it wants on our behalf, fulfilling Walt's dream of corporate autonomy with a class of citizens, which reinforce their argument to keep Reedy Creek as a separate district.

On a related note, given the point of view I espouse above, I am actually surprised the WDC would permit actual homeowners within the district and on WDW property. This seems as though it will eventually hold the WDC accountable to a class of citizens that will have legal authority to challenge their mandates and directives.

 

[Mickey'sApprentice]

I recall reading a thread 4-6 years ago from a supposed former BW Front Desk CM who stated that all of the CMs hated working the DVC resorts because we were all overly demanding and low class. This man said he could peg a BWI guest or BWV owner at first glance due to the class issue.

The way that guy described it...we were all Dee Vee See.

The poster then went on to say that he had transferred to another Deluxe and was so happy. It sounded like the best situation for both himself and the DVC members.

Does anybody remember that thread? It caused quite the stir at the time.

 

[Dean]

I recall reading a thread 4-6 years ago from a supposed former BW Front Desk CM who stated that all of the CMs hated working the DVC resorts because we were all overly demanding and low class. This man said he could peg a BWI guest or BWV owner at first glance due to the class issue.

The way that guy described it...we were all Dee Vee See.

The poster then went on to say that he had transferred to another Deluxe and was so happy. It sounded like the best situation for both himself and the DVC members.

Does anybody remember that thread? It caused quite the stir at the time.

I recall a thread or 2 that seems like that. I don't think it was as bad as you recall though. I also recall a thread where a member had called MS and the CM thought they'd hung up and that CM and another started talking about the member in a negative way. I think there has been enough info from CM (directly and indirectly) over the years that they do generally see DVC members are a more demanding and difficult group to work with. All one has to do is frequent DIS or similar sites to see that they are often demanding and unrealistic in their expectations. The CM would be in a better position to make judgements as to the relativeness of each for different groups.

 

[crisi]

I recall a thread or 2 that seems like that. I don't think it was as bad as you recall though. I also recall a thread where a member had called MS and the CM thought they'd hung up and that CM and another started talking about the member in a negative way. I think there has been enough info from CM (directly and indirectly) over the years that they do generally see DVC members are a more demanding and difficult group to work with. All one has to do is frequent DIS or similar sites to see that they are often demanding and unrealistic in their expectations. The CM would be in a better position to make judgements as to the relativeness of each for different groups.

I think that a segment of "frequent Disney guest" are harder for CMs to work with. And DVC members are easy to identify as frequent guests.

Frequent guests often know "how its supposed to work" better than the CMs. And as a CM you can't win - because we often know what the policy is that we expect you to enforce on someone else (hey, kick those pool hoppers from Ft. Wilderness out of our pool!) and that CMs have a lot of discretion in enforcing policy (I want a different room and I don't want to pay the room switch fee).

Frequent guests often have experienced "magic" on one or more trips and build that "magic" into their expectations. Its a silly thing - expected "magic" is mundane, but unmet expectations for "magic" are disappointing. Once you get the "absolutely wonderful view and perfect room" getting stuck with the HA accessible room which is the only one available is disappointing.

Frequent guests have both a sense of ownership (especially DVC members, but even just people who go regularly) which makes any change at all controversial, and a sense of entitlement - we are "owed" something for our loyalty to the brand. That combination is killer for a CM to keep happy.

 

[Winksst]

I think that a segment of "frequent Disney guest" are harder for CMs to work with. And DVC members are easy to identify as frequent guests.

Frequent guests often know "how its supposed to work" better than the CMs. And as a CM you can't win - because we often know what the policy is that we expect you to enforce on someone else (hey, kick those pool hoppers from Ft. Wilderness out of our pool!) and that CMs have a lot of discretion in enforcing policy (I want a different room and I don't want to pay the room switch fee).

Frequent guests often have experienced "magic" on one or more trips and build that "magic" into their expectations. Its a silly thing - expected "magic" is mundane, but unmet expectations for "magic" are disappointing. Once you get the "absolutely wonderful view and perfect room" getting stuck with the HA accessible room which is the only one available is disappointing.

Frequent guests have both a sense of ownership (especially DVC members, but even just people who go regularly) which makes any change at all controversial, and a sense of entitlement - we are "owed" something for our loyalty to the brand. That combination is killer for a CM to keep happy.

Nothing to add here. I just thought this was a great response! We just signed our contract, but we've been to WDW enough to know what's "normal" and when folks are falling down on the job. That would be hard as a CM...a non-CM knowing you're not doing your job or knowing more about your job than you.

That's just a great answer! (To me)

 

[Dean]

I think that a segment of "frequent Disney guest" are harder for CMs to work with. And DVC members are easy to identify as frequent guests.

Frequent guests often know "how its supposed to work" better than the CMs. And as a CM you can't win - because we often know what the policy is that we expect you to enforce on someone else (hey, kick those pool hoppers from Ft. Wilderness out of our pool!) and that CMs have a lot of discretion in enforcing policy (I want a different room and I don't want to pay the room switch fee).

Frequent guests often have experienced "magic" on one or more trips and build that "magic" into their expectations. Its a silly thing - expected "magic" is mundane, but unmet expectations for "magic" are disappointing. Once you get the "absolutely wonderful view and perfect room" getting stuck with the HA accessible room which is the only one available is disappointing.

Frequent guests have both a sense of ownership (especially DVC members, but even just people who go regularly) which makes any change at all controversial, and a sense of entitlement - we are "owed" something for our loyalty to the brand. That combination is killer for a CM to keep happy.

If you're saying that the 2 factors (DVC and experienced Disney goers) are each more demanding and the combination is worse still, I'm sure that's correct. As to which is the larger issue, my guess is DVC members are significantly more likely to be demanding than simply being a frequent guest.

 

[crisi]

If you're saying that the 2 factors (DVC and experienced Disney goers) are each more demanding and the combination is worse still, I'm sure that's correct. As to which is the larger issue, my guess is DVC members are significantly more likely to be demanding than simply being a frequent guest.

I'd guess that the worst guest to keep happy is the frequent Grand Floridian or Yacht and Beach Club non-DVC guests. They are spending more money every trip, have all the knowledge we do, have the extra club of "I don't need to come back!," are paying to stay at a Deluxe hotel and not a timeshare, and are probably wealthy enough to have experienced and understand what a level of service and quality is that Disney doesn't really provide is.

But your average cast member doesn't get "stays at the Grand Floridian every year" when the guest checks in on their screen. Folks working the BWI/BWV check in desk know who is a DVC member. And so they get confirmation bias on us.

 

[tjkraz]

Frequent guests have both a sense of ownership (especially DVC members, but even just people who go regularly) which makes any change at all controversial, and a sense of entitlement - we are "owed" something for our loyalty to the brand. That combination is killer for a CM to keep happy.

I'd weight this factor highest when it comes to Cast.

I do remember the thread(s) referenced earlier and have conversations with Cast Members over the years. The general consensus is that DVC members are pretty high on the entitlement scale. Folks are quick to whip out phrases like "I own part of this place" or "I paid $____ thousand dollars to join DVC" as justification for often unreasonable demands.

DVC members are notoriously poor tippers. I've seen bell services carts piled high with everything but the kitchen sink, for which CMs say $5 (or less) is a common gratuity.

Back when valet parking was free, apparently a large portion of membership also believed that tips were not required. Free is free, right?

Admittedly this is a vast generalization but even a handful of bad experiences per day is enough to make members stand out as a group.

To generalize regarding cash guests, those paying $350-500 per night for a hotel room at the Grand Floridian, Beach Club, etc. apparently have a much better appreciation for the place. They are regarded as being more respectful toward the cast and have a better understanding of appropriate gratuity levels.