Born Again Christians Thread-No Bashing please

[bytheblood]

Just wanted to say that I agree with you, especially in regards to what you posted about children. Very nicely stated!

Ditto.

I believe
I Corinthians 7:14 and the entire story of David and his child will back that up.

 

[bytheblood]

Anyone else here like reading Max Lucado? I have several of his books and have enjoyed them.

www.christianbook.com

This site has great deals on Christian books, resources, etc.

Anyone's kids VeggieTale fans?

My DS & DD like them. They have also enjoyed Ms. PattyCake, 3, 2, 1 Penguins, Adventures in Odysey & many others.

I LOVE Max Lucado. He is an awesome writer. I cannot read his books on eschatology, however. I believe his books about the Rapture, White Throne Judgement, Return of Christ and such are way off base, making his books very hard to follow. I did read "It's Not About Me" and loved it. Just loved it. I want to read "Come Thirsty" now.

 

[dcentity2000]

DH and I were discussing this topic over the weekend, and we consulted the Bible, then went online to find out what other Christians were saying.

The Bible clearly states that the only way to get to heaven is by Accepting Christ as Lord and Saviour. One must understand and believe the gospel. This sounds harsh, as you are correct in that there are people who will have never even heard of the Bible or Jesus.

Acts 17:30 says "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent (31) because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."

I take that to mean that there was a time when God was tolerant to people's ignorance, but that since Jesus rose from the dead, the only way to heaven now is to believe and accept Jesus as Saviour.

As harsh as that sounds, I believe it to be the truth. It should motivate even more Christians to go out and minister to lost souls.

I will say that prior to my research over the weekend, I was of the mind that people ignorant to the Bible would go to heaven if they somehow acknowledged a "higher being" by looking around them at creation and nature and reconizing the majesty of it all, and that it must have been created by God, whether or not they knew that name. But having re-read some of the gospel, I know now that a person must understand and accept the gospel.

Lastly, regarding your scenario, you were saying "child" and "children". I don't know if you were referring to what happens to children when they die, but I will give you my understanding here. There is an age of accountability, which is when a child is able to understand the plan of Salvation. For some children that is very young, say 4-5 years old. For others, it is older, 8-10 years old. It depends on the child. If they have reached their personal age of accountability, and have accepted Jesus, then they will go to heaven. This concept also applies to people who have various degrees of mental retardation, or who have other physical disabilities which prevent them from understanding.

Oh, and I know not all Christians will agree with all that I have just written, and I am still learning about this topic as well, so please if anyone has more insight about this subject, I would love to hear it.

Next to address dcentity’s questions, here are my thoughts about that. First of all, I certainly don’t claim to have all the answers. This is just my opinion based on my study of the Bible. As another poster stated, children who have not yet reached the age of accountability will all go to heaven when they die. When we reach the age of accountability, we are responsible for accepting the gift of salvation through Christ. In the case of the person who has literally never heard about Jesus, I don’t think the Bible refers specifically to that precise situation. There are several verses that some people use to formulate their beliefs about it, but none are explicit in my opinion. There is a verse (I’m sorry, I can’t remember the reference) that says we are all born with an innate knowledge of God. I believe that if someone who has never heard of Christ acknowledges God, then God will decide whether that person goes to heaven or not. In essence, I don’t think it’s black and white from a Biblical perspective. However, I think the worship of creation (such as the sun, moon, animals, etc.) is not the same as acknowledgement of God. That’s just my opinion, though I believe there is a Bible verse to back that up as well. Clearly though, we should all focus on missions so that everyone can hear about the wonderful gift God has given us all. For your next case where the person has heard about Jesus but grew up in an area where that viewpoint is ridiculed and not accepted, I do think that person is responsible for accepting Christ. We are admonished several times in Scripture that we must choose Christ no matter how difficult that choice is, even to the point of death. Is that an easy thing to do? Of course not. However, I do think that being a Christian often requires people do “go against the grain” of popular opinion. While this happens to a much lesser severity even here in the US, persecution of Christians happens (yes, even deaths) in foreign countries to this day. I believe that is part of what Jesus was referring when he told his followers they must leave everything and everyone behind and follow Him.

Thanks guys! This thread is a real learning curve for me - thanks for taking the time to answer!



Rich::

 

[treesinger]

So which is it? Trust him or pray? I can see a firm belief in one or the other, but to go both ways is IMO a cop out to cover when things go wrong.

Speaking on the "cop out" position...

My belief is that God is all knowing only insomuch as all of the POSSIBLE things that can happen to us and then the results of all of those possibilities. But we have free will so God does not yet know which way we will go. But He does know what will happen after we make that choice. And if God has something that we must do, or needs us to do, His hand will push us to those choices as he sees fit. If it sounds like it is a game, well it kinda does. But we cannot know God's ways and purposes.

 

[live4christp1]

So which is it? Trust him or pray? I can see a firm belief in one or the other, but to go both ways is IMO a cop out to cover when things go wrong.

Both prayer and trusting God are major parts of our Christian beliefs, we are admonished in scripture to do both.....they are a part of our faith.

Matthew 6:5-8
And why you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words. Therefore do not e like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him.

** God knows what I need before I even ask, does that mean I don't have to ask.....no, prayer is the pursuit of a personal relationship between God and man.

Proverbs 3:5&6
Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him and He shall direct your paths.

** If I will surrender to Gods will and trust that He has my best interest at heart, He will direct my life.

Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Hebrews 11:6 - But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who dilligently seek Him.

 

[live4christp1]

I LOVE Max Lucado. He is an awesome writer. I cannot read his books on eschatology, however. I believe his books about the Rapture, White Throne Judgement, Return of Christ and such are way off base, making his books very hard to follow. I did read "It's Not About Me" and loved it. Just loved it. I want to read "Come Thirsty" now.

The one's I have read are In the Grip of Grace, When God Whispers Your Name and He Did This Just For You. I think I have another but I can't recall the name of it presently.

 

[live4christp1]

The other Max Lucado book I was thinking of was He Still Moves Stones


I really like some of Kay Arthurs books also, she has an excellent one called To Know You By Name (I think) which goes through the names of God and there meanings like Jehovah Jirah, Elohim, Emmanuel. This is one of my favorite books, I go back to it time and time again. Another of hers that I really like is As Silver Refined.

Also like many of Erwin Lutzer's material.

Other than the Left Behind series I haven't read a lot of fiction books.

Also like to read about great warriors of the faith like John Wycliffe, William Tyndale and great missionaries like DL Moody, etc.

Some of my most recent readings have been "Shepherding a Child's Heart" "Aaron's Way" and "The Power of a Praying Parent".

 

[KimR]

Just saw there were 666 replies to this thread - figured I'd fix that.

 

[disneymom3]

So which is it? Trust him or pray? I can see a firm belief in one or the other, but to go both ways is IMO a cop out to cover when things go wrong.

What I have learned is that God has a table full of provisions so to speak that He is waiting to give us, but you have to ASK Him for them. And then you have to trust that He will give them to you. However, yes, sometimes God's answer is no. Our pastor challenged us in Feb to pray everyday for the same issues for 6 months and see what happened. I prayed for DH to get a new job, he got one. I have prayed for an even keel and to know how to react to DDs mental health issues and things have been smooth. I have prayed to God to bless my business and my business stinks. I think the answer is no on that front, but I am going to keep praying!

You can believe it is a copout, but I know the peace that i have when I trust God with all areas of my life. (Which is something I do not do very well.)

 

[disneymouse]

i remember when i became a christian at age 22 my athesist boyfriend at the time sneared at me saying in 10 years he'll be much happier then me living some 'uptight' existence as a christian. ( we broke up) but nothing could be futher then the TRUTH. the only regret that i have is that i didn't surrender my life to God much earlier. how much heartache i could have avoided if i had put God first as a girl.
at 36, i'm married to a very kind caring man with 2 children. walking around some place like disney and staying at a resort with them i know in my heart this is all a blessing from God. the peace i feel now is something that was nonexistence as a non believer. i don't know what became of that snearing ex boyfriend but i had trusted the Lord to work in his life as well.

 

[Miss Jasmine]

I consider my prayers conversations with my Heavenly Father. I thank Him for some things, I may ask Him for some things, and I discuss with Him some things in order to understand Him better. I think of it as conversations I would have with my earthly Father. So I think prayer and trust are not exclusive of each other.

 

[DarthGoofy]

Hello

I don't spend much time on the community board. I was pleasently surprised to see a thread for Christians. I think it is great. I am a pastor, and love to fellowship with other believers.

 

[cardaway]

When I trust somebody about something it means that I know they have it handled and I no longer need to worry (or pray) about it.

I realize the conflicting messages trace back to the bible. IMO that is why so many people struggle with their faith.

 

[Miss Jasmine]

When I trust somebody about something it means that I know they have it handled and I no longer need to worry (or pray) about it.

I realize the conflicting messages trace back to the bible. IMO that is why so many people struggle with their faith.

I trust my credit union, but I check my account online every couple of days. I know it's not the same thing, but I couldn't help myself. LOL

 

[ead79]

cardaway, thanks for your respectful and thought-provoking posts. I understand where you’re coming from, and I’ll be the first to admit that I don’t understand why God always chooses what he does. I can see how what Christians see as an answer to prayer could be seen as good fortune by a non-believer, and I can see your point about when bad things happen as well. One important point to make about death for Christians is that it is not a punishment from God’s perspective, but a reward of eternity with Him. Of course, there is much, much pain for those left here on earth, but for the dead believer himself/herself, there is great joy. I suppose I don’t see it as “button pushing” either, since there is a large element of free will in our lives. Also, sometimes when we don’t get the answers to prayer that we were hoping for, we find out why later on. Sometimes things never make sense to us on this side of heaven. I realize how that can seem like a cop out, and I’ll be the first to admit that it is faith and experience based.

In response to the trust vs. pray issue, I think the two go hand in hand. The conflict, in my opinion, is a result of our lack of faith, not any wavering on the Lord’s part. We still have our old natures that we must battle against, and we don’t always want what is truly best for us. Also, there is a difference between praying about something and worrying about something because you don’t trust God. When I pray I often find peace even when I’m having to wait for my answer. Now, I must admit that I often struggle with worry. I try to solve things all on my own, and that causes me to worry. That’s when the conflict between trust and worry arises. However, that is not a fault of God’s, it is my inability to trust Him completely at times. Even though He has never let me down, my human self still has difficulty trusting in certain areas. I strive to let go of control more, yet it is a struggle. Fortunately God loves me and knows my struggle to trust.

 

[Aidensmom]

I consider my prayers conversations with my Heavenly Father. I thank Him for some things, I may ask Him for some things, and I discuss with Him some things in order to understand Him better. I think of it as conversations I would have with my earthly Father. So I think prayer and trust are not exclusive of each other.

Well said. Same here.

 

[ElizK]

Wow! This thread moves fast! I had to read 10 pages yesterday to catch up, and 6 today... and it's only 245pm! Some great discussion going on!

My DD's both go to camp tomorrow. Why is it so hard to let them go? My seperation anxiety far exceeds both of theirs put together!

DD13 is going with the youth for the 1st time. She'll be 4hrs away! ACK!! DD10 will be about 1 1/2 hrs from here.

Anyway, prayers for a safe trip for them would be much appreciated. Thanks!

Gotta get back to packing now.

 

[live4christp1]

Hello

I don't spend much time on the community board. I was pleasently surprised to see a thread for Christians. I think it is great. I am a pastor, and love to fellowship with other believers.

Hi DarthGoofy! Glad you stopped by. I personally have really enjoyed the discussions here. Hope you will stick around and add some insight.

 

[live4christp1]

Wow! This thread moves fast! I had to read 10 pages yesterday to catch up, and 6 today... and it's only 245pm! Some great discussion going on!

My DD's both go to camp tomorrow. Why is it so hard to let them go? My seperation anxiety far exceeds both of theirs put together!

DD13 is going with the youth for the 1st time. She'll be 4hrs away! ACK!! DD10 will be about 1 1/2 hrs from here.

Anyway, prayers for a safe trip for them would be much appreciated. Thanks!

Gotta get back to packing now.

Will be praying for you and you DD's.

 

[JoyG]

To think that because they might not be born again, thus not allowed into Heaven, is simply wrong. Your ideologies are one of many hundreds if not thousands in the world. People accept God and Christ not just through prayer, reading the Bible, witnessing and convicting, confessing and tithing, but through their actions.

Rick, I understand your reasoning, and although it makes sense to you, it goes directly against what Jesus himself said in the Bible. Please don't take my word for it, read the Gospel of John. In John 3:3 Jesus himself said "I tell you the truth, unless a man is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God". I don't see how He could be anymore direct than that. I know it goes against what the world sees as reasonable, it's not politically correct, but it's in the Bible nonetheless, plain as day.