BLT Ebay Purchase Gone South

[bumbershoot]

Sure you can, I've bought several paying with paypal. They also give you some protection but not much. One of the problems with a timeshare is that the time to get finished often takes longer than the window of protection.

https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/helpcenter/helphub/article/?solutionId=FAQ799&topicID=&m=ARA

You can’t use PayPal to buy or sell real property, including buildings, land, or anything affixed to the land.

Besides the direct sale of real property, we also don’t allow transactions that involve:

• Raffles or lotteries offering the opportunity to purchase or the chance to win a specific house.
• Real estate auctions that allow prospective buyers to sort through property listings and place bids on the property they want. There are many variations on what it takes to win. Typically, though, the winner is the highest bidder or the person whose bid is closest to the actual value of the house.
• Reverse auctions offering properties for sale not to the highest bidder, but to the person who has the lowest unique bid. In a reverse auction you usually have to pay an administration or bidder’s fee before you can make a bid.
• Tax lien certificate auctions in which prospective buyers place bids on tax lien certificates. These are certificates that represent a claim, or partial claim, on a property for the sum of unpaid taxes. The winning bidder becomes the property’s new lien holder.
• Timeshare transactions -- offers to buy, sell, or rent rights to the periodic se of a property. A timeshare is real estate that is jointly owned by people who share the right to use the property and take turns using it.

 

[Dean]

https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/helpcenter/helphub/article/?solutionId=FAQ799&topicID=&m=ARA

It definitely happens. I count 2 in my account right now.

ETA: I searched ebay and found a number stating they accept paypal and one saying they didn't due to paypal's restrictions. I didn't go through all 350 or so though.

 

[ziravan]

Two things:

1. This is going on your PERMANENT record. I like that. It's a very aggressive tactic that by itself justifies your decision.

2. Use a broker. Not using a broker saves a few bucks...for the seller. It does nothing for the buyer except deny you protection, as you've witnessed first hand. The problem here isn't ebay, per se. It's the lack of a broker.

 

[Dean]

Two things:

1. This is going on your PERMANENT record. I like that. It's a very aggressive tactic that by itself justifies your decision.

2. Use a broker. Not using a broker saves a few bucks...for the seller. It does nothing for the buyer except deny you protection, as you've witnessed first hand. The problem here isn't ebay, per se. It's the lack of a broker.

I"ve bought many timeshares without a broker. All a broker does is get the 2 together and initiate the process. It's the closing where things get done. One just needs to do due diligence before sending money and in ebay's case, even before bidding.

 

[curan69]

So I attempted to purchase a BLT contract from a private seller on Ebay earlier this month. The seller lives in Fla and was going to do the transfer himself. I signed the contract and provided my credit card information for payment on 6/7/15.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

As a Police Officer with over 25 years experience, this is a far as I got when I started shaking my head.

 

[CraigInPA]

I saw that auction. 100 points for $99 per point, a pretty good deal right now. The seller also had an AK 110 pointer for $7900 (or best offer). I was suspicious of this guy from the get-go. But, the "scam!" radar wasn't screaming for me, since he wasn't a low feedback seller, and had recent purchases.

Failure of the seller to provide a written agreement of sale of real estate violates ebay's rules, as well as federal law. When he wouldn't send you proof of ownership and the signed agreement of sale, that's reason enough to cancel the transaction. I would have contacted ebay to put HIM on their watch list.

The threat of reporting you to DVC is laughable. The only real leverage he had was to report you as a non-paying bidder. But, if you provided your side of the story to ebay, and this was a scam, he would have been caught.

 

[ziravan]

I"ve bought many timeshares without a broker. All a broker does is get the 2 together and initiate the process. It's the closing where things get done. One just needs to do due diligence before sending money and in ebay's case, even before bidding.

With anything, there is a learning curve. Your level of comfort is consistent with your level of experience.

Not using a broker is fine for you, and lets concede that you're an expert in the process.

For a non-expert I believe my advice still holds: use a broker.

In most cases not using a broker only benefits the seller. In your case, you might have enough expertise to negotiate a split of the savings involved. I don't think that's the norm.

 

[Dean]

With anything, there is a learning curve. Your level of comfort is consistent with your level of experience.

Not using a broker is fine for you, and lets concede that you're an expert in the process.

For a non-expert I believe my advice still holds: use a broker.

In most cases not using a broker only benefits the seller. In your case, you might have enough expertise to negotiate a split of the savings involved. I don't think that's the norm.

We'll have to disagree, about all a broker does is bring the 2 together. There are some additional things they might do but some of these are good and some bad and other than linking the 2 parties, I'd say the bad evens out or even outweighs any benefits for the usual suspects. Even in the best of times, there isn't a lot they can offer to a buyer. As for benefits, it can be a win win for private sale. Of course no one should buy a timeshare without educating themselves (though many do) so I would assume a certain level of knowledge and information by the time one gets to making an offer. In my mind and specific to DVC, the savings on a private sale can be split between the buyer and seller plus the dues can more easily be calculated on the calendar year basis as they should be. There's roughly potential for a $2000 total savings on a 200 pt SSR contract between commissions and reduced closing plus the potential to shift some dues back to the seller without an argument for the buyer. For specialty contracts, it also may open up contracts to a buyer that might not have been available to them otherwise such as smaller or frequently unavailable resorts.

 

[ziravan]

We'll have to disagree, about all a broker does is bring the 2 together. There are some additional things they might do but some of these are good and some bad and other than linking the 2 parties, I'd say the bad evens out or even outweighs any benefits for the usual suspects. Even in the best of times, there isn't a lot they can offer to a buyer. As for benefits, it can be a win win for private sale. Of course no one should buy a timeshare without educating themselves (though many do) so I would assume a certain level of knowledge and information by the time one gets to making an offer. In my mind and specific to DVC, the savings on a private sale can be split between the buyer and seller plus the dues can more easily be calculated on the calendar year basis as they should be. There's roughly potential for a $2000 total savings on a 200 pt SSR contract between commissions and reduced closing plus the potential to shift some dues back to the seller without an argument for the buyer. For specialty contracts, it also may open up contracts to a buyer that might not have been available to them otherwise such as smaller or frequently unavailable resorts.

I think you just made my case. Your post reads like a master's thesis on the ends and outs of buying DVC. Specifically, you point out several advantages that would not be available to even an informed buyer, but only available to an expert buyer.

And I think it would take that level of knowledge to push some of the savings from not using a broker from seller to buyer.

In the meantime, a broker does serve not only to find both parties, but to vet them. In the case of this thread, a novice buyer using eBay to buy, there is no downside to demanding a broker, and quite a bit of upside.

 

[Dean]

I think you just made my case. Your post reads like a master's thesis on the ends and outs of buying DVC. Specifically, you point out several advantages that would not be available to even an informed buyer, but only available to an expert buyer.

And I think it would take that level of knowledge to push some of the savings from not using a broker from seller to buyer.

In the meantime, a broker does serve not only to find both parties, but to vet them. In the case of this thread, a novice buyer using eBay to buy, there is no downside to demanding a broker, and quite a bit of upside.

In my view one that uninformed shouldn't buy at all, being in a position to need those things a broker might provide means that they're not ready to buy.

 

[ziravan]

In my view one that uninformed shouldn't buy at all, being in a position to need those things a broker might provide means that they're not ready to buy.

Disagree.

You're combining two learning curves, DVC and real estate in general.

And it's not just education but experience. I can count on one hand the number of real estate transactions I've done in my life:

1. Bought a house.
2. Sold it.
3. Bought another house.
4. Bought BCV.
5. Bought PVB.

Just as a function of experience, I'd feel more comfortable using a broker. And I'm no longer a novice about DVC.

Yes, I agree most buyers should know more about the process. I disagree that anybody need be the expert you suggest to buy.

You learn by doing. That makes you an expert. That's not the case with most buyers. Shoot, your level of expertise and experience is not the case for 99.8% of buyers.

 

[Dean]

Disagree.

You're combining two learning curves, DVC and real estate in general.

And it's not just education but experience. I can count on one hand the number of real estate transactions I've done in my life:

1. Bought a house.
2. Sold it.
3. Bought another house.
4. Bought BCV.
5. Bought PVB.

Just as a function of experience, I'd feel more comfortable using a broker. And I'm no longer a novice about DVC.

Yes, I agree most buyers should know more about the process. I disagree that anybody need be the expert you suggest to buy.

You learn by doing. That makes you an expert. That's not the case with most buyers. Shoot, your level of expertise and experience is not the case for 99.8% of buyers.

We'll certainly have to disagree then because I believe the specifics I mentioned are critical to buying and pricing even through a broker. In my view if you don't know enough to sort out the specifics I mentioned, you don't know enough to buy a timeshare and commit to the long term. Obviously most buyers don't fit my threshold because most are retail buyers often done with limited info and/or on the fly.

 

[supersnoop]

I hire people to do things that I don't have the time or need to learn how to do. Buying real estate is one on those things. Hiwever, the problem with DVC is that we are dealing with brokers, not realtors. They don't work for me, so I don't trust them to keep my best interest in mind. If they were realtors, I'd agree with ziravan, but since they're not, I have to agree with Dean (which is pretty rare for me).

Remember, we're buying a timeshare. Everyone will tell you that's a terrible idea. It only makes sense if you really, really know what you're doing. Everyone should should take the time to learn before they spend tens of thousands of dollars on a timeshare.

 

[Dean]

I hire people to do things that I don't have the time or need to learn how to do. Buying real estate is one on those things. Hiwever, the problem with DVC is that we are dealing with brokers, not realtors. They don't work for me, so I don't trust them to keep my best interest in mind. If they were realtors, I'd agree with ziravan, but since they're not, I have to agree with Dean (which is pretty rare for me).

Remember, we're buying a timeshare. Everyone will tell you that's a terrible idea. It only makes sense if you really, really know what you're doing. Everyone should should take the time to learn before they spend tens of thousands of dollars on a timeshare.

A broker can do as much or more to you than for you and unless you understand the basics that I mentioned above (and much more), one really doesn't have enough info to ask the right normal questions but they also bring liabilities. To a degree, I do agree that the usual brokers offer a small element of system knowledge and possibility to avoid some pitfalls for the uneducated buyer but t the end of the day I feel the buyer needs to be educated enough that it wouldn't matter. That's why I quote it takes 6 months of active investigation before purchasing. Anyone not willing to do so, really shouldn't buy IMO. Of course we could turn this around, from a sellers standpoint there really isn't much increased value for most situations to deal with it outside of a hand holding scenario, maybe $1000 on 200 pts for each, maybe less for high demand options. The real benefit IMO is being able to find other contracts that might be missed otherwise and the possibility of slipping a fire sale contract through ROFR which we all know isn't very likely unless it's a foreclosure or bankruptcy scenario. The other option that a private sale brings is the potential for a barter of some type.

 

[ziravan]

I hire people to do things that I don't have the time or need to learn how to do. Buying real estate is one on those things. Hiwever, the problem with DVC is that we are dealing with brokers, not realtors. They don't work for me, so I don't trust them to keep my best interest in mind. If they were realtors, I'd agree with ziravan, but since they're not, I have to agree with Dean (which is pretty rare for me).

Remember, we're buying a timeshare. Everyone will tell you that's a terrible idea. It only makes sense if you really, really know what you're doing. Everyone should should take the time to learn before they spend tens of thousands of dollars on a timeshare.

I agree that a broker isn't an agent working on my behalf.

Basically, I used a broker to find a buyer, facilitate the process, and ensure the deal was on the up and up. Could I have done that myself? Sure, but as you said, I'm paying to not have to do that legwork myself.

Better than that. I'm not paying, the seller is. Can those savings be partially passed on to me if we skipped a broker? Sure, but that's not the norm. You have to be a much more experienced buyer to negotiate splitting that savings with the seller. And that's my point. For that average buyer, that's more trouble than it's worth.

Look at the OP. If he had a broker, then there's a third party with a vested interest to produce a contract. There's a third party to handle funds. And there's a third party to handle quashing the deal and removing the ability to threaten to put it on his permanent record.

There was all upside to the OP demanding a broker and no downside. In fact, the deal would have fell through before the credit card was exchanged if he had. The seller was a scam and wouldn't have proceeded with a broker because it was a scam.

A broker would have vetted that. Just demanding a broker would have vetted that.

 

[BrittanyLynn]

As a Police Officer with over 25 years experience, this is a far as I got when I started shaking my head.

As someone with a banking background working in fraud and money laundering departments...I'm shaking my head as well.

 

[Minniesgal]

It definitely happens. I count 2 in my account right now.

ETA: I searched ebay and found a number stating they accept paypal and one saying they didn't due to paypal's restrictions. I didn't go through all 350 or so though.

Paypal can be a pain for sellers. We rented 400ish points this year using paypal. Paypal had a real problem with us receiving significant amounts of cash. By significant i'm talking less than $5000. I wouldn't like to try and sell points rather than rent through paypal for that reason. Maybe if I had a business account it would be easier but we have had an issue or at least a weeks delay getting our funds every time (we rented to three parties so 6 payments in all)

 

[Dean]

Paypal can be a pain for sellers. We rented 400ish points this year using paypal. Paypal had a real problem with us receiving significant amounts of cash. By significant i'm talking less than $5000. I wouldn't like to try and sell points rather than rent through paypal for that reason. Maybe if I had a business account it would be easier but we have had an issue or at least a weeks delay getting our funds every time (we rented to three parties so 6 payments in all)

I've used paypal fairly routinely but mostly for normal purchases. When I rent, I don't normally allow paypal or if I do, I require the other party to pay the fees in some way. As I've said before, I don't think paypal offers much protection but they do offer some.

 

[rcchello]

PayPal does not offer purchase protection for real estate.

From their website
13.3 Ineligible Items. PayPal Purchase Protection only applies to PayPal payments for certain tangible, physical goods. Payments for the following are not eligible for reimbursement under PayPal Purchase Protection:

1. Intangible items, including Digital Goods
2. Services
3. Real estate, including residential property
4. Businesses
5. Vehicles, including motor vehicles, motorcycles, caravans, aircraft and boats
6. Significantly Not As Described issues for Custom-made items
7. Travel tickets, including airline flight tickets
8. Items prohibited by the PayPal Acceptable Use Policy
9. Items which you collect in person or arrange to be collected on your behalf, including items bought through In-Store Checkout at the retail point of sale
10. Purchases made on eBay that violate eBay’s Prohibited or Restricted Items Policy
11. Industrial machinery used in manufacturing
12. Items equivalent to cash, including prepaid or gift cards
13. PayPal Direct Payments
14. Virtual Terminal Payments
15. Personal Payments