Barry Bonds... 616 HR's..... no * needed!

[Papa Deuce]

Just two nights ago I called the local sports radio station to emote my displeasure with Barry Bonds being brought up in the same sentence as Hank Aaron and Babe Ruth. I "guestimated" that Bonds would have 50 - 100 less HR's had he not taken steroids. The radio host was lukewarm on my thoughts. Many callers did call afterwards and say that Iwas taking away far too many HR's even if you take the roids into account.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hruby/060512


Hmmmmnnnnn..... seems like I was pretty close, based on the opinions of this article I found on ESPN.

 

[megan4777]

I completely agree with you.

I don't follow baseball but I personally think that he isn't in the same "class" with Babe Ruth.






I edited to add that my DH does follow baseball (He LOVES IT). I do take in quite a bit from him, unfortunately.

However, as a "chick," what do I know?

 

[olena]

I'm a baseball chick. It has little to do with the players or team loyalty, for that matter. I love the game and its place in our culture and history. To me, this issue isn't just about Barry. People ask about Mark McGwire. I completely lost all respect for him after his appearance before Members of Congress. I always wondered if he was juicing, but now I'm fairly certain he must have been. Any of them.....even if it's my favorite players.....shame on them all. We can't retro-test past suspects and the current testing protocols don't go far enough. I want my game cleaned up and 'some' integrity restored. (I hold no illusions about 'good ol' days.)

I heard about all these calculations and had to laugh. I wondered when someone would break it down with numbers. The heat's really turning up on Bonds.....GOOD! I've been ranting about him to baseball buds for years now. Last year, he sat out the season and blamed the relentless media for houding him off the field. Wah. I hoped against hope that he'd retire....just go away. He will never recover his image and he has tarnished his legacy. If he ever gets into Cooperstown, let him be inducted with Pete Rose. They deserve each other's company. I want Hammerin' Hank in the front row at the ceremony shaking his head and wagging his finger at Barry.

 

[bicker]

The problem with that line of reasoning is that we simply don't know what Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron were taking, or doing, to get all their HRs. There wasn't the kind of iterrogative scrutiny by the press back then as compared to today. In the end, baseball is a game, and all these stats count are HRs made in accordance with the rules of the game. If the rules called for reversal of reality then there might be something to pursue, but they don't. A HR is a HR, once the game is recorded, regardless. So the HRs where Babe Ruth didn't actually touch home plate still count, as do all the HRs of Barry Bonds.

 

[Jennasis]

Babe Ruth was an amazing ballplayer...but he WAS a raging alcoholic and quite abusive of others. So please use caution when using the term "class" in the same sentence with him.

That being said, I believe that Barry Bonds should not be allowed into the record books because of the steroid use. All of his record should be completely expunged/nullified.

 

[Papa Deuce]

The problem with that line of reasoning is that we simply don't know what Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron were taking, or doing, to get all their HRs. There wasn't the kind of iterrogative scrutiny by the press back then as compared to today....

Steroids did not not exist....... The Babe told you his secret "Cigars, beer, and broads".....

 

[lillygator]

I can only hope and pray that Bonds will never get to 755....

 

[bicker]

Steroids did not not exist...

Like I said, we don't know what they were taking or doing. We do know that corruption (bribe-taking, specifically) was a lot more common back then. I'm not saying that I know that there were HRs that can be attributed to bribes, but rather than we don't know. The crucible is a lot more stringent now. The point is that MLB has an obligation to respect the results they had previously certified. You cannot start picking and choosing what gets affected by a disqualified HR and what doesn't get affected: They cannot legitimately disqualify the HR and not change the score of the game. If they start down that road, then they must recompute winners of division championships and the World Series as a result. Remember, the point of MLB isn't individual statistics, but rather the results of team-on-team competition. Unless they're prepared to force some teams to hand-over pennants to other teams, then they had better leave sleeping dogs lay.

 

[Miss Jasmine]

I am no fan of Barry Bonds and that is actually for other reasons than steroids. I think this is a MLB issue not a Barry Bond's issue. MLB knew all of this was going on and turned a blind eye. Now it has found a scapegoat. It makes me mad that he is being paraded around as some horrid person when there have been plenty of others juicing (and can still be juicing).

 

[Bob Slydell]

That being said, I believe that Barry Bonds should not be allowed into the record books because of the steroid use. All of his record should be completely expunged/nullified.

You can't expunge records for something that A.) hasn't been proven to be true and B.) wasn't caught, or for that matter, even tested for, at the time he was doing it.

I don't doubt that Barry was taking something and I'm far from a fan of his, but like Jas said, it's MLB's problem (well, the player's union as well) that they didn't test properly back then and turned a blind eye to the problem of steroids. As bicker said, if you start taking records of Barry's off the books now, be prepared to comb through all records and all games in order to "clean" up the record books.

 

[Figment22]

If he ever gets into Cooperstown, let him be inducted with Pete Rose. They deserve each other's company. I want Hammerin' Hank in the front row at the ceremony shaking his head and wagging his finger at Barry.

Hank Aaron has WAY too much class for us to ever see that happen. I don't think BB will break 755. He has said many times that it was Ruth's number he wanted, not Hank Aaron's.

As I said on the other BB thread, unfortunately we can't just single out Bonds as the culprit here. The whole era is tainted And, as Steve said, it's not just MLB that's the problem. The player's union has to take a BIG share of the blame here too.

 

[Papa Deuce]

Like I said, we don't know what they were taking or doing. We do know that corruption (bribe-taking, specifically) was a lot more common back then.... /QUOTE]

We DO KNOW that they WERE NOT taking chemicals to enhance their bodies. All one needs to do is look at pictures. Back then, these guys had normal bodies.

BTW, as I pointed out in another post, Babe was hitting more HR's in a season than some TEAMS were. The year he hit 60, the next highest guy was UNDER 20 HR.

 

[Miss Jasmine]

Good points, yes the Players' Union is to blame as well.

 

[Papa Deuce]

I am no fan of Barry Bonds and that is actually for other reasons than steroids. I think this is a MLB issue not a Barry Bond's issue. MLB knew all of this was going on and turned a blind eye. Now it has found a scapegoat. It makes me mad that he is being paraded around as some horrid person when there have been plenty of others juicing (and can still be juicing).

Gee, maybe that is becasue so many people who actually know him say he treats people like scum. He plays the race card at the drop of a hat. And, while paraphrasing here , Bonds has said that he never really wanted to beat Aaron's record "But I do want to beat the white guy".

So, let's recount.... racist, cheater, and thought of by many of those who know him, as scum of the earth.... OH, and let's not forget that failure to pay child support incident from a few years back..... Scapegoat????? LOL.

People can't stand him and he brought it on himself.

 

[bicker]

We DO KNOW that they WERE NOT taking chemicals to enhance their bodies.

But we don't know if anyone paid other teams off to soft-pitch Babe Ruth. We just don't know.

It seems to me that lots of people would like to think that this age is the age of badness and everything that came before was the age of goodness. I doubt anything could be further from the truth. As likely as not, things were "badder" before, and principally because we didn't have as much ability to find out things as we do today. With transparency comes intelligence. The past looks cleaner only because our vision is clouded by the passage of time. I don't think it benefits anyone to vilify the present or venerate the past.

 

[Peter Pirate]

The Babe wasn't a classy guy in any stretch of the imagination. Nor was he a great athelete. But he did hit a baseball like no one else. There were no steroids or magic powder in Babe's time. He may have been drunk for a lot of the HR's but alcohol certainly isn't a performance enhancer.

Bond's took steroids, look at the photo's...This wasn't done in the weight room and particularily the well publicized increase in the size of his head. What weight training increases head size? True the evidence is circumstantial, but it's quite abundant and direct. He's guilty. So is McGuire and Sosa. Sure there are others but these three assualted the record books and these three can take the blame for all. Baseball needs to act and get it over with.

As for putting Pete Rose on the same level as Bonds, please. Rose gambled, he didn't cheat. It was still illegal but baseball has its priorities messed up if it appears to be less afraid of illegal drug more than gambling. Rose is arguably the greatest hitter in baseball history, he deserves to be in the hall as a player.

 

[Miss Jasmine]

Gee, maybe that is becasue so many people who actually know him say he treats people like scum. He plays the race card at the drop of a hat. And, while paraphrasing here , Bonds has said that he never really wanted to beat Aaron's record "But I do want to beat the white guy".

So, let's recount.... racist, cheater, and thought of by many of those who know him, as scum of the earth.... OH, and let's not forget that failure to pay child support incident from a few years back..... Scapegoat????? LOL.

People can't stand him and he brought it on himself.

Did you not see the part when I said I wasn't a fan of his for other reasons than steroids? My use of the word "horrid" had to do with being a steroid scapegoat. Clear now? Good.

 

[Papa Deuce]

Did you not see the part when I said I wasn't a fan of his for other reasons than steroids? My use of the word "horrid" had to do with being a scapegoat. Clear now? Good.

I'm glad you clarified.... And I couldn't care less if he is a scapegoat. HE MADE HIMSELF the poster child. I personally hope all this media attention beats him into retirement.

And nothing in sports makes me happier than knowing that this guy's legacy will have the stigma of being a cheater attached to it.

And if people want to blame the MLB and Player's Union, be my guest. BUT INDIVIDUAL PLAYERS chose to make the choices they made. I don't think Bud Selig injected any needles into Bond's arm, or forced any pills down his throat.

 

[cardaway]

IMO people have been doing, and hopefully will continue to do, the only thing anybody can do in this situation. Treat this a non-heroic event and a second tier sports story.

It's sad, but it's reality. Not only is the supposed cheating a factor, but the guy is one of, if the the biggest, butthead in sports.

As for what sports can or cannot do... if they can talk of taking away National Championships away form college sports teams because of things players do that are not even related to the game... puting a * by Barry's name is nothing.

 

[grimley1968]

I'm hoping this is all a moot point soon. Even as a DH for an AL team, I can't imagine Bonds would play more than this and possibly next year. He's just too banged up, and possibly feeling the effects of the roids now, to keep going. His home run pace has slacked off dramatically. As long as he never ties Aaron, I'll be alright. He may have passed Ruth, but that's still only 2nd place, and he's still a long way from one of the classiest guys to ever play the game.

I was hoping someone clean could catch Aaron and make this even more moot. Griffey is probably not going to be able to do it now, with bad hamstrings that are basically stapled to the bone now. He's still hitting dingers, but he's not going to be able to have any 50 HR seasons anymore that he would need to even be in contention. He's at 541 with last night's HR. As a Reds fan, I love Griffey's all-out effort in center (he made a long running catch last night), but I almost hate to see it. All these dives, long runs, jumps, etc. take probably an average of 10 or 20 at-bats off his eventual career total. He's just too fragile at this point for that position, IMHO, as much as I love to watch him play out there. An American League team and a DH role would be best suited for Junior to make any kind of run at the record, but I think he's too proud of his defensive prowess to make that move. A-Rod could do it, I suppose, but he's pretty obnoxious himself.

But the one guy who might just break both the single season and the total HR records is just getting started with his career: Albert Pujols. I sure hope he's not on any performance-enhancers, because he is just an amazing hitter to watch. Unless he hit one last night that I don't know about, he's sitting at 22 HR this year having played barely 1/4 of the season.